Which canopy material packs the smallest?

[HIGH1 1]

Currently, Im looking to stuff a 210ZPX into a container made for canopies between the sizes of 150-170sqft.....

Aerodyne ZPX material has 17% less pack volume than a ZP of the same size…
The Velocity I-34 container has a maximum pack volume size of 387cui (150-170sqft)

-A Triathlon 210 with ZP material has a pack volume of 435cui
-A triathlon 210 with ZPX material has a pack volume of 361cui (0.17% - 435)
Even when the ZPX material has 10% less volume, the calculation is close but doable @ 391cui WHEN were comparing to the Velocity container MAX pack volume of 387cui

In theory, it appears it works….
What are your thoughts about the triathlon 210ZPX pack volume?
Past experience?
Is it possible to pack the ZPX material 2x smaller?

Thank you for your time, advice and suggestions in canopy to container sizing.

Check your ego at the door. Stay humble.

[maggyrider 10]

While the 210ZPX might fit into the container - why do you want to do it? What kind of reserve are you going to put into your rig?

Nice words are not always true - and true words are not always nice.

[hillson 0]

Yeah...good luck with that. Low bulk fabric is groovy but isn't a miracle worker. Line length / diameter and all other components don't shrink up, too. Plus other factors etc etc.

Likewise, the PIA Volume Chart put out by Sandy Reid at Rigging Innovations suggests a larger volume...

http://www.rigginginnovations.com/files/Docuemnts/Other/PIA%20Canopy%20Volume.pdf

Take these charts for what they are...a general measurement. Location, humidity etc all influence the data. Sometimes they're true/close enough and sometimes they're full of shit.

Don't buy a container because you want to fit 27 different sizes of canopies in there. Buy one made to fit what you're going to be jumping.

Better: call the manufacturer and tell them what you want to put in the container and let them pick the size.

[HIGH1 1]

Tracking... The reserve to main size and wingloading differences. The answer required is more focused on Pack Volume.

Check your ego at the door. Stay humble.

[HIGH1 1]

Thank you for the clean response. I did the calculation with your Chart and it seems as if the 210ZPX will now be too large.

According to your chart, the 210ZP would be approx. 539cui
Now, the ZPX 17% decrease in pack volume.............447cui

We know the Pilot 188 with ZPX material works for the 387sqft main pack tray.
Aerodyne Pilot 188 (ZP: 440cui VS ZPX: 365cui)

Check your ego at the door. Stay humble.

[monkycndo 0]

I realize the question is about the main, but the I34 will only handle a maximum of a 160 low bulk reserve.

I pity the person who is fighting to get a 210 main and is wiling to rely on a 160 reserve.

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You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[HIGH1 1]

Thank you for insight but I was seeking solutions rather than the obvious. Your profile says Infinity.....

Stuffing a 210 (ZPX @ 17% less pack volume) into a I-34 then having to ride a 160 reserve would not be safe but is it doable? Main vs reserve; which difference in sizing and/or wind loading would effect your speed to deal with a malfunction? 10sqft, 20sqft, 30sqft, 40sqft? 1:1, 1.5:1, 2:1 ?
Where did mirage come up with their idea behind the Mirage W-series? Small reserve. Larger main.

Im opening up the table for criticism and/or solutions which would prove more helpful; who has answers? from which discipline; wingsuit? CrW? Swoop? accuracy?

Check your ego at the door. Stay humble.

[monkycndo 0]

I always say chose your reserve size, then your main. I realize you ride your main each jump, and might never use your reserve.

But when you do go to plan B, it will most likely be in the basement, over trees, with a tiny landing area, no wind sock to tell you wind direction and the first time you ever landed that canopy. Are you sure you want it to be the smallest canopy you have ever jumped, for the first time?

I get that you want to only buy a container once. But do yourself a favor, ask the question, "How much do I value unbroken bones?"

Mellow dramatic? maybe. I have never heard anyone say that once they had their reserve over their head, "Damn, I wish it was smaller!!!!"

On my last new Infinity container, I chose to stick with the same size container (I-33) and upsize my reserve to an OP160. I could have gone to a I-23 and OP143 for that sexy small container. I have one reserve ride on my PDR 143 and it landed just fine. Instead, I chose more fabric.

Mirage designed a container for a BASE main and small reserve for jumpers that want to legally jump a base main and still have a reserve. Accuracy folks want a big main so they can sink into a tuffet, but don't need the same sized reserve. Wingsuiters are nuckin futz.

At least you are choosing the right container.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[councilman24 37]

First decide if you want to die even if your AAD opens your reserve when your unconscious. I'm not kidding. Lots of.folks have.made that decision even if they don't realize it. Most folks get away with a tiny reserve because they're conscious and can flare and have a canopy with very few or no jumps on it that acts like zp.

IF your willing to die if unconscious then you need to be confident in landing the lower performance airfoil at the wing loading you choose in someone's backyard, in a parking lot or along a city street. In other words off airport in tight conditions. This depends on your experience, in general and with a seven cell canopy. It also depends on the reserve model you choose.

IF you want to survive if unconscious then better stay closer to 1:1 WING loading.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[realpet 0]

councilman24

IF you want to survive if unconscious then better stay closer to 1:1 WING loading.

I personally think that this is invalid guidance. If unconscious then it is just about luck whether you survive or not.

- Petri

[mcordell 2]

realpet

***IF you want to survive if unconscious then better stay closer to 1:1 WING loading.

I personally think that this is invalid guidance. If unconscious then it is just about luck whether you survive or not.

- Petri

Not really. The larger the wing is, the more survivable the landing in half brakes and unconscious. As a general rule, regardless of the size of the canopy the glide angle will stay relatively constant for the same design canopy. That means under a small reserve you would have the same (very similar) glide angle as you would under a reserve of the same design but twice as big. The difference will be in how fast your face impacts the ground without flaring. The logic is there and the math works out. It's not just luck. The luck part is where you land. The speed of your landing is entirely within your control.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[betzilla 56]

Quote

First decide if you want to die even if your AAD opens your reserve when your unconscious.

^^^That gave me all the warm fuzzies. You're the best, Terry
@ OP: "low pack volume" fabric packs smaller, but the rest of the stuff doesn't. So if you're trying to stuff a ZPX 210 into the space of a 150, you're jamming MORE line, and MORE reinforcement tape (more by a LOT) into that little space. You might be able to do it, but it's gonna suck. Might suck a little less with a 7 cell, but not by a huge margin.

You mentioned the Mirage "W-Series" as a sort of proof that it's an ok idea. My understanding is that the W series exists solely to placate the FAA - there needs to be an airworthy reserve in the container for jumps from a helicopter for wingsuit flying close to terrain. The main is huge because it's pretty much a BASE main. The reserve is teeny because that's what the pilot has in his/her sport rig. It's not really a useful configuration for any other scenario...

[councilman24 37]

realpet

***IF you want to survive if unconscious then better stay closer to 1:1 WING loading.

I personally think that this is invalid guidance. If unconscious then it is just about luck whether you survive or not.

- Petri

While you CAN die if your unconscious with any size reserve your much more LIKELY to die with a small highly loaded reserve, even if hitting a grass lawn. That's why the smallest reserves are made under an exemption to the TSO rate of decent standards. And the FAA has indicated they will likely not issue new exemptions and they rejected a flared (conscious) rate of descent test and standard in the new TSO standard. Also remember that even the post deployment unaltered configuration test (brakes set) is done with 170lbs. NOT the 254 lbs or other max load.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JerryBaumchen 1,363]

Hi Terry,

Quote

If unconscious then it is just about luck whether you survive or not.

IMO anyone jumping a reserve at more than 1:1 loading should watch a 170 lb steel droptest dummy land with the brakes set. You would need to be in very good condition not to be seriously broken or dead. I've drop enough of them to strongly believe that 1:1, or less, is a very good idea.

The dummy does not just 'land,' it goes for a merry, tumbling ride across the ground.

Quote

That's why the smallest reserves are made under an exemption to the TSO rate of decent standards.

I believe that it is the Total Velocity req'ment that they cannot meet.

Jerry Baumchen

[skydiverek 63]

realpet

***IF you want to survive if unconscious then better stay closer to 1:1 WING loading.

I personally think that this is invalid guidance. If unconscious then it is just about luck whether you survive or not.

- Petri

See how small reserves land sometimes in half-brakes, when not flared :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERRrUcyOiE4