squarecanopy 0 #1 February 23, 2007 WTH is with some of these jumpers? Twice last weekend I am in the door, watching the previous group staying virtually right underneath the tail of the airplane as they fell away, due to the high headwinds/low groundspeed on jump run, and everyone up in the plane is screaming GO GO GO. Is there a teachable "method for dummies" on how to gauge exit separation or are we just going to have to have some collisions under canopy before the jumpmaster on the load will quit demanding "Keep your separations down to 5 seconds!" no matter what the conditions outside the plane? How do you guys handle this at your DZ? Just burning a hole in the sky..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueSBDeath 2 #2 February 23, 2007 There is NO easy answer. Just look back with your mouth open and say "Now, how about now?" then rock for the count, mess that up, and start over, soon you will be at your desired exit point and then get out!!! We all bitch, but we all make the same call at the door. I like, I no like, we go around, you get mad, me not care, me alive to jump again Sorry, no real learning was intended by this post BSBD...........Its all about Respect, USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #3 February 23, 2007 My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #4 February 23, 2007 No. Take your JM aside and explain to him how exit separation and ground speed works...he will thank you for it. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
squarecanopy 0 #5 February 23, 2007 Thanks, Arvel! I guess I am just looking for a little support when I "stall" in the doorway for good reason. I don't have many jumps, but I have thousands of hours in small airplanes and I can gauge groundspeed... I'll try the start the count over trick, and live to jump another day! Just burning a hole in the sky..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #6 February 23, 2007 QuoteTwice last weekend I am in the door, watching the previous group staying virtually right underneath the tail of the airplane as they fell away, due to the high headwinds/low groundspeed on jump run I'm lost. Were you jumping from a helicopter or did those headwinds suddenly drop off 10 feet below exit altitude? Strong headwinds has no effect on the angle on which you fall away from the plane. The only things that matter there are weight, body position and airspeed. Watching the path of skydivers exiting the plane will give you no indication of the ground speed or the strength of the uppers. You'll need to look at the ground to get some idea of that. But yes - you're right in saying that low ground speeds generally need longer exit separation. Before you go debating exit separation with your jumpmaster, make sure you're looking at the right things, first. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #7 February 23, 2007 The only thing that went through mind of the petunias as it fell was; "Oh-no! Not again! -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,997 #8 February 23, 2007 > Is there a teachable "method for dummies" on how to gauge exit separation . . . Simplest method - Look down. Wait until the plane has covered 1000 feet over the ground. Then go. Next simplest method - Always wait at least 7 seconds. If the winds are high, then divide them by 2 and wait that number of seconds. So 30kts = 15 seconds. Not 100% accurate but a good rule of thumb. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Legs 0 #9 February 23, 2007 QuoteSimplest method - Look down. Wait until the plane has covered 1000 feet over the ground. Then go. This requires skilled spotting techniques. Many skydivers look straight down and presume they are directly over the piece of ground they can see. This depends on the angle of the plane in the air. As we all know there are good spotters and notoriously bad spotters. Saying that, I would rather land off than have a mid air collision and 130mphWith love in Christ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflysteve 0 #10 February 23, 2007 Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #11 February 23, 2007 This issue has been hashed out about a thousand times on these forums. I also wrote a feature for The Ranch S&TA site called waiting between groups. Check it out as Article 15 at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,498 #12 February 23, 2007 Quote I don't get it - why does Brett's reply get a ? As far as I can see he is perfectly correct - the angle at which a group falls away from the plane soon after exit is going to be the same no matter what the ground speed. The OP is also right to be worried about seperation issues from being pushed to exit too soon with strong uppers - but the way a group falls away from/ back from the plane shouldn't 'look' any different no matter what the uppers are doing.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,498 #13 February 23, 2007 QuoteThis requires skilled spotting techniques. Many skydivers look straight down and presume they are directly over the piece of ground they can see. This depends on the angle of the plane in the air. As long as they keep looking at the same angle they will be able to tell when they have covered 1000ft (assuming they know how long 1000ft is) even if they think they are two counties away. Even if they can't tell at all the very act of looking, judging and deciding will keep them occupied for an extra few seconds anyway, adding to the seperation.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #14 February 23, 2007 QuoteThis issue has been hashed out about a thousand times on these forums. "Oh no, not again"... Seems like more than a thousand eh? And nothing new will be covered this time either... -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #15 February 23, 2007 QuoteWatching the path of skydivers exiting the plane will give you no indication of the ground speed or the strength of the uppers. You'll need to look at the ground to get some idea of that. Good comment, lack of understanding this leads to dangerous practices like the 45 degree rule. The OP should do a search here on separation, also visit Kallend's website, the omniskore simulation of Kallend's stuff. When people yell "GO, GO, GO" it's best to take off your helmut, turn to them and ask them "what's wrong? Do you see traffic?" ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Legs 0 #16 February 23, 2007 QuoteAs long as they keep looking at the same angle they will be able to tell when they have covered 1000ft (assuming they know how long 1000ft is) even if they think they are two counties away. Even if they can't tell at all the very act of looking, judging and deciding will keep them occupied for an extra few seconds anyway, adding to the seperation. I do not agree with your first comment. The person in question may continue looking out at the same angle relative to the plane, but the plane may have altered its attitude to the ground. The second point is an excellent one, and one that should be encouraged. The more people look down and try to judge, the better they will get at it. It should be routine for skydivers to spot their own exit......see thread on spottingWith love in Christ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Legs 0 #17 February 23, 2007 Tom I have read your artcle and it is great, I would advise anyone to read it. It doesn't go into spotting techniques though. It just says the experienced skydiver should be able to judge their ground position and ground speed. It dissapoints me that people who have clearly been within this forum for a good amount of time, dismiss discussion because "it has been done before". This is a discussion forum, over time all discussions will take place, does this mean new people should not talk just read? Interaction speeds up learning, I just wanna learn. Please dont dismiss my questions just because its a frequent question for many people. The only stupid question is the one left unasked. RegardsWith love in Christ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,997 #18 February 23, 2007 >does this mean new people should not talk just read? Not at all! But a good order to do those things in is 1) read 2) post. You can't learn anything when you are busy replying to other people on topics you don't yet understand. Imagine if we did a FJC that way! Instead of an instructor talking most of the time and people asking questions, we had the students just ask questions for 4 hours. There's a good chance they'd miss something that they would have picked up if they had listened to the instructor talk for a while. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
idrankwhat 0 #19 February 23, 2007 Quote As long as they keep looking at the same angle they will be able to tell when they have covered 1000ft (assuming they know how long 1000ft is) even if they think they are two counties away. The easiest method for me is to use the runway and know its length. If it's 4000 ft, just divide the runway into half twice and mentally shift that selected piece of real estate to underneath the plane. I do it on the ground and using a picture of the dz before I go up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #20 February 23, 2007 QuoteQuoteThis requires skilled spotting techniques. Many skydivers look straight down and presume they are directly over the piece of ground they can see. This depends on the angle of the plane in the air. As long as they keep looking at the same angle they will be able to tell when they have covered 1000ft (assuming they know how long 1000ft is) even if they think they are two counties away. Even if they can't tell at all the very act of looking, judging and deciding will keep them occupied for an extra few seconds anyway, adding to the seperation. OK, suppose the plane makes an angular pitch change of just 2 degrees on a jump run at 13k. (Or your estimation of constant angle is off by 2 degrees). What error, in seconds, does that introduce in the exit separation in, say, a King Air?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Legs 0 #21 February 23, 2007 Quote>does this mean new people should not talk just read? Not at all! But a good order to do those things in is 1) read 2) post. You can't learn anything when you are busy replying to other people on topics you don't yet understand. Imagine if we did a FJC that way! Instead of an instructor talking most of the time and people asking questions, we had the students just ask questions for 4 hours. There's a good chance they'd miss something that they would have picked up if they had listened to the instructor talk for a while. Fair comment taken onboardWith love in Christ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Legs 0 #22 February 23, 2007 434 feet which at a ground speed of 50mph = 6 secondsWith love in Christ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #23 February 23, 2007 QuoteThis is a discussion forum, over time all discussions will take place; does this mean new people should not talk just read? Of course not, questions should be asked but MANY questions have been answered already in countless topics. For example: In the Search box I typed in the words Exit Separation and got a reply that said: “Your search for exit separation returned 1425 results”. There are 57 pages of links to dialogue that had already taken place in the past discussing this issue in detail. Over the years, nearly every conceivable aspect of exit separation has been addressed and there is some very good information in those threads already. Simply grab a cup of joe, do a search and read. Then if you cannot find a suitable answer to your inquiry, instead of starting a new and separate thread all you have to do is simply resurrect the topic by making a reply in the existing thread and it will bring that thread/topic back to the top in everyone’s browsers thus reducing the amount of different threads concerning the same topics which will result in making the Search function easier to use. At least I think that is how this site works… -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #24 February 23, 2007 Quote It dissapoints me that people who have clearly been within this forum for a good amount of time, dismiss discussion because "it has been done before". This is a discussion forum, over time all discussions will take place, does this mean new people should not talk just read? Interaction speeds up learning, I just wanna learn. Please dont dismiss my questions just because its a frequent question for many people. The only stupid question is the one left unasked. I wasn't trying to dismiss discussion at all, and I'm sorry you took it that way. When I was S&TA at The Ranch I found most of my time was spent answering the same questions again and again. That's true here too. So, I did tons of research on those key topics and wrote comprehensive articles about them. Now, instead of typing the same basic answer over and over, I can simply provide an authoritative link, and that becomes the "jumping off point" for discussion. When I post those links I take it a step further and use the homepage URL for the S&TA site, with a listing for the specific article that I am referencing, rather than a URL directly to that article. I find people go to the site to read about their specific question, but then browse some of the other article too. The other thing I've found about dropzone.com is that people post some very specific questions, but other people reading the thread have a need for a more general understanding. Again, I find it helpful to post the link to my comprehensive article for both the original question, and for those who are intrigued by the discussion and want more information. I try not to limit discussion here, but rather to provide foundational knowledge so discussion can move forward. .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #25 February 23, 2007 which is approx 1/2 the necessary separation? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
