mcordell 2 #26 May 30, 2015 RiggerLeeMakes my case. And he owns one. Lee it is a tighter diaper. If your statement was that I make your case in some way then please tell me how. I'm not uneducated on the gear I own. If that not what you mean then I guess I misunderstood. I know my gear and I'm one of the few "younger riggers" that actually does understand the older gear and is willing to pack it. A lot of riggers my age won't pack anything over 20. Without turning this into another 20 year thread, how do I make your point?www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #27 May 30, 2015 He asked if it was a narrow/tight diaper. you responded that it was a "full stow diaper, not a two stow diaper". It appeared that you were not familiar with the fact that they changed diaper designs and retrofitted the older wider diapers with a tighter narrower trapezoidal diaper. It is an important issue. The load of the lines and diaper during extraction can act on that radial seam over the top of the crown to pull the opposite radial seam out of the diaper out of sequence. Their was a death that appeared to be the result of that on a high speed deployment. So even with the tighter diaper I'm not sure the problem is totally gone. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #28 May 30, 2015 Yea I did. I responded quickly to the question and answered what type of diaper it had based on the stows and answered it incorrectly. His question was also edited after I answered so I didn't answer it fully (because most of it wasn't there when I did). It's a 1986 model with a full stow diaper and it is a narrow diaper. It couldn't really get any tighter around the canopy than it is. Being an 86 model the diaper isn't an issue because the diaper changed prior to its manufacture (I believe). I seem to recall the pioneer originally came with a two stow diaper and when the diaper changed they went to a full stow diaper. I could be mistaken but I believe that's right. Either way I do know my gear. not all younger riggers are inexperienced or lacking the knowledge to maintain older gear. There's at least one very experienced rigger in this thread that thinks pioneers were all grounded.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #29 May 30, 2015 Hold on. maybe I'm the one that's confused. I thought we were talking about a National Phantom that you owned. Is your canopy a Pioneer? LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #30 May 30, 2015 Whatever the minor arguments going on about who knows what about Phantoms, which few know about in the first place, the subject caught my interest. (And that's interesting Lee about why the diaper change was made.) Here are the most important parts of the two early National Phantom bulletins, that may be hard to find but are preserved in the CSPA's early technical bulletin system: QuotePHANTOM Reserve Service Bulletin: PHANTOM DIAPER DESIGN CHANGE AND THE NEED FOR STAGED DEPLOYMENT All Phantom Round Reserves manufactured after September 1, 1985, have an improved diaper deployment system. The new diaper holds the skirt tighter which takes up less space in the container and further reduces the possibility of an out of sequence deployment. The new diaper is a fully tapered design with rounded corners and No. 2 nickel/brass grommets. If you have a Phantom 22, 24, 26 or 28, manufactured before September 1, 1985 the diaper should be changed at the next regular repack. QuoteINSTALLATION OF LAMINATED KEVLAR BANDS ON PHANTOM ROUND RESERVES: All Phantom Round Reserves manufactured after January 1, 1988 have a unique laminated kevlar construction. The crown support band, which is interwoven with the radial seam tapes, has 2 layers of Kevlar and the upper lateral band (apex) has 3 layers of Kevlar. Phantom reserves have used 3 single layer Kevlar bands (skirt, crown and apex) for several years and TSO certification was accomplished in this configuration. The use of multi-layer, laminated Kevlar in the 2 upper bands provides a significant increase in lateral strength and reduces the possibility of structural damage in the event of an out-of sequence or irregular deployment. All Phantom Round Reserves (22, 24, 26 and 28) manufactured before January 1, 1988 should have Laminated Kevlar bands installed in conjunction with the next scheduled repack. Installation is required prior to August l 1988. Laminated Kevlar bands may be installed by any Master Parachute Rigger or Certificated Loft who has the required personnel, machinery, materials and instructions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #31 May 30, 2015 RiggerLeeHold on. maybe I'm the one that's confused. I thought we were talking about a National Phantom that you owned. Is your canopy a Pioneer? Lee Oh jesus...it's a phantom. I work midnights and slept about two hours. ugh...I need to go back to bed. I have a national phantom 24.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #32 May 30, 2015 pchapmanWhatever the minor arguments going on about who knows what about Phantoms, which few know about in the first place, the subject caught my interest. (And that's interesting Lee about why the diaper change was made.) Here are the most important parts of the two early National Phantom bulletins, that may be hard to find but are preserved in the CSPA's early technical bulletin system: QuotePHANTOM Reserve Service Bulletin: PHANTOM DIAPER DESIGN CHANGE AND THE NEED FOR STAGED DEPLOYMENT All Phantom Round Reserves manufactured after September 1, 1985, have an improved diaper deployment system. The new diaper holds the skirt tighter which takes up less space in the container and further reduces the possibility of an out of sequence deployment. The new diaper is a fully tapered design with rounded corners and No. 2 nickel/brass grommets. If you have a Phantom 22, 24, 26 or 28, manufactured before September 1, 1985 the diaper should be changed at the next regular repack. ***INSTALLATION OF LAMINATED KEVLAR BANDS ON PHANTOM ROUND RESERVES: All Phantom Round Reserves manufactured after January 1, 1988 have a unique laminated kevlar construction. The crown support band, which is interwoven with the radial seam tapes, has 2 layers of Kevlar and the upper lateral band (apex) has 3 layers of Kevlar. Phantom reserves have used 3 single layer Kevlar bands (skirt, crown and apex) for several years and TSO certification was accomplished in this configuration. The use of multi-layer, laminated Kevlar in the 2 upper bands provides a significant increase in lateral strength and reduces the possibility of structural damage in the event of an out-of sequence or irregular deployment. All Phantom Round Reserves (22, 24, 26 and 28) manufactured before January 1, 1988 should have Laminated Kevlar bands installed in conjunction with the next scheduled repack. Installation is required prior to August l 1988. Laminated Kevlar bands may be installed by any Master Parachute Rigger or Certificated Loft who has the required personnel, machinery, materials and instructions. I was pretty sure it changed in 85 but didn't have the time to look it up right then. Thanks for posting that. Mine has the improved diaper and has had the Kevlar band added.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
strife 0 #33 May 30, 2015 here as well on the APF site https://www.apf.asn.au/Equipment/RAC-s-and-SB-s/All-SB-s/Service-Bulletins#National_Parachute_Industries Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #34 May 31, 2015 Two-stow diapers were never a production standard on Phantoms. .... Not sure what you are babbling about ???? While I will admit that 2-stow diapers are annoying to pack, I have never seen any statistics saying that they are less reliable than full-stow diapers. ????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #35 May 31, 2015 Ok I must be misremembering. I know my sac had a two stow diaper so I must have been thinking of that.www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #36 May 31, 2015 SAC... as i recall the normal configuration had an Ashudo/phantom style diaper. That is what was packed into the Security 360. For the sport market they built a choker style diaper but i think it was a three stow full stow diaper. I don't think I've ever seen a two stow/half stow diaper on one. Maybe it was a very early version. Any one with a better memory recall? LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #37 May 31, 2015 I had a lot of SACs that were diaperless. The one that I ahd with a diaper was actually a 1969 Crossbow with a 2 stow Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #38 May 31, 2015 It's a security parachute but is it a SAC. For example I don't think the SAC had type 2 lines. They made a lot of canopies but I don't think the SAC, Super Aero Conical, was TSO'd with out a diaper like some of the others. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #39 May 31, 2015 RiggerLeeIt's a security parachute but is it a SAC. For example I don't think the SAC had type 2 lines. They made a lot of canopies but I don't think the SAC, Super Aero Conical, was TSO'd with out a diaper like some of the others. Lee no, that's a Crossbow (I stated that in the post). The one SAC that I had was a 4 full stow diaper pictured is a 1980 22ft SAC (with a bonus re-cert stamp) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,377 #40 May 31, 2015 Hi Paul, Quote pictured is a 1980 22ft SAC (with a bonus re-cert stamp) Hmmm, looks familiar. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #41 June 1, 2015 I still have it. Here's a pic. Original 2 stow diaperwww.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #42 June 1, 2015 That's a new one. Never seen that before. LeeLee lee@velocitysportswear.com www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #43 June 1, 2015 QuoteWhile I will admit that 2-stow diapers are annoying to pack, I have never seen any statistics saying that they are less reliable than full-stow diapers. ????? I agree. I still see the occasional Strong pilot rig with a 2-stow diaper, and according to Strong, they are A-OK (Even have instructions in the latest Manuals) - although we do have a local Rigger who grounds and replaces any Strong 2-stow diaper they come across. I have yet to see any documentation that supports that behavior.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #44 June 1, 2015 For a long time now (decades?) Strong has sewn Type 4 diapers onto all their 26 foot diameter Lopo canopies. By Type 4, I mean diapers with 2 or 3 locking stows and enough rubber bands to stow all the rest of the lines longitudinally (parallel with radial seam). Ironically, packing manuals for most Strong Para-Cushions say to stow lines like a Type 2 diaper (only left line group in locking stows and the bulk of lines in pack tray). Councilman has been trying for years to get permission to pack Para-Cushion Seats as Type 4 diapers .... with limited success. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 164 #45 June 2, 2015 riggerrobCouncilman has been trying for years to get permission to pack Para-Cushion Seats as Type 4 diapers .... Rob/Terry - Why? (just curious) JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dpreguy 14 #46 June 2, 2015 fca I think I can answer that. Stowing all lines in the diaper provides for "lines first" deployment. Stowing all of the lines in the pack tray, provides for "canopy first" deployment. See Parachute Rigger Handbook, Poynter manuals, etc. Think about it. Would you want your lines stowed in your pack tray? Canopy first deployment has been abandoned for almost all emergency, (and sport) assemblies for 50 years or more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 164 #47 June 2, 2015 dpreguyfca I think I can answer that. Stowing all lines in the diaper provides for "lines first" deployment. Stowing all of the lines in the pack tray, provides for "canopy first" deployment. See Parachute Rigger Handbook, Poynter manuals, etc. Think about it. Would you want your lines stowed in your pack tray? Canopy first deployment has been abandoned for almost all emergency, (and sport) assemblies for 50 years or more. However, a Type 2 as used in the Para-Cushion, when packed correctly (split line groups and secure bands on the diaper) still maintains a closed skirt (as with a full-stow type IV) until line stretch. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #48 June 2, 2015 QuoteHowever, a Type 2 as used in the Para-Cushion, when packed correctly (split line groups and secure bands on the diaper) still maintains a closed skirt (as with a full-stow type IV) until line stretch. I would struggle to believe they hold the skirt as reliably as a type 3 or 4. The tension required to unstow the rat's nest of lines in the bottom of the pack tray would be well in excess of the 2 or 3 loops required to open the diaper. On a side note, I have seen very few riggers do a 'neat' job of taking care of the excess line stow on the right group on the 304 seat parachutes.=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #49 June 2, 2015 fcajump***Councilman has been trying for years to get permission to pack Para-Cushion Seats as Type 4 diapers .... Rob/Terry - Why? (just curious) JW ............................................................................................ Councilman and I dislike Type 2 diapers because they are more difficult to teach junior riggers how to pack. For example, last week a CSPA Rigger A asked me help him pack a pair of Para-Cushion seats because he is working towards his PEP rating. He has never jumped a round and has only packed a dozen or so round canopies (reserves and PEPs). Since this was the third time we has re packed this pair of seat packs, I spent most of the afternoon sitting on the canopy (aka the world's most handsome packing weight. He did most of the work, regularly staring at the manual. I only offered advice when he looked confused. I only needed to coach him on closing the diaper, stowing lines in the pack tray and compressing the Pop-Top pilot chute. Since I only repack a dozen Para-Cushions per year, even I have to glance at the manual to refresh my memory on where to stow lines in the pack tray. If he was packing Type 4 diapers into Butler of Softie seat packs, I could have been even lazier and would have coached him even less. if he were packing those Strong Lopo canopies into a Butler or Softie seat-pack, I would advise him to stow all the lines on the diaper. Packing full-stow diapers is easier because junior riggers can relate the process to stowing lines on main deployment bag. Councilman and I would like permission (from Strong) to pack Para-Cushion Wedges (311) and seat (305) because those containers are thick enough to comfortably accommodate the bulk of a full-stow diaper. Does that answer your question? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 164 #50 June 2, 2015 riggerrob Does that answer your question? Yep And I agree with two notions presented... - newer riggers (including myself at the time) and some older riggers definitely have problems understanding why/how the split-groups work and packing them wrong is a big problem. - Type IV would hold the skirt until line stretch more reliably than Type II when rigged less than ideally. For me the Type II provides better overall bulk distribution within the pack and when properly understood is not overly difficult to pack. The biggest two issues I have seen with the Type II are: - rigged wrong... i.e. all lines used in the locking stows. - weak bands at the diaper compared to the pack. I find that the better table deployments (and the few in-air deployments I've had using a tersh) are when the diaper bands are tighter than those in the pack tray. Most of the rigs I pack are Para-Cushions and so I'm very used to and comfortable with the method. Mostly, I wanted to hear the thoughts of others on the design. THANKS! JW PS - and I STRONGLY prefer the 3 stow over the 2... holds that diaper better during the pack tray stow release.Always remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
