Any STA ,BPA Adv Inst or Tandem Inst

[freekflyguy 0]

I just saw this link on the photography forum.

http://www.matthoover.com/gallery/skydiving-photos/2006-10/2006-10_p16.html#navbar

I was wondering how many people out there think this is acceptable??

BTW I voted No on all 3

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[Tonto 1]

As a former TM with 750 tandems, and a current wingsuit instructor, I beleive that wingsuit flyby's are perfectly safe as long as:

a) The TM is in agreement.
b) The increased risk is explained to the passenger.
c) The wingsuit pilot is known to and trusted by the TM.
d) The approach is planned and executed as planned.
e) The entire wingsuit flight is set up for the flyby.

Looking at the picture it looks like the wingsuit pilot has approached from the rear. If that's the case, it's not how I buzz Tandems. My approach is always across the nose of the canopy, from left to right (in the case of a left door exit) or right to left (in the case of a right door exit) and agreed with the TM prior to exit. The Tandem canopy cannot suddenly accelerate forward when on full drive. A sudden left or right turn by the TM will not present an uncontrolled variable and if executed is an indication to the wingsuit pilot by the TM that the flyby should be aborted.

As a wingsuit instructor/pilot I have a good idea of my level of skill. Close enough to thrill the tandem pax for me is about 100ft. I don't ever go much closer than that.

I voted yes on all 3.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Peej 0]

It's been discussed before...

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=495845;search_string=Buzzing%20tandems;#495845

Me personally, i'm not a TI, but watching how well some of these dudes like Chuckie Blue, Scott Campos, Matt Hoover, Scary Perry, Tonto, etc fly their suits, i'd have no problem with them being in the same airspace as me, either under a Tandem Canopy or my main canopy. So long as it was discussed and briefed before hand, i reckon rock on.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[phoenixlpr 0]

Are you a wingsuit flyer?

Picture does not tell if they have agreed before.

[freekflyguy 0]

I am not a current wingsuit flyer but I have flown them.

I guess I am just to much of a church policeman to think that it is acceptable to fly by a tandem with or without prior agreement.

Whilst I dont doubt the skills of the wingsuit flyer or the tandem instructor I personally find it an unnecessary risk. There are wingsuit flyers whom I would be willing to let fly by me under canopy, but definately not when I have a student on the front.

OK, I am looking at this from an extreme point of view but if something went wrong and there was an incident do you think the tandem student or their family would say "thats OK we agreed to it" or "Wheres the Lawyer????" I'm guessing the latter.

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[riggerrob 643]

This issue has already been discussed on another thread.
I voted NO!
The basic problem with this photograph is that the wing suit is approaching from the rear. First of all, he is too close. This gives the TI no warning and the student little improvement in visuals. With a wing suit this close, any unexpected turn by the tandem would create a collision.
In short, this photo was staged for the sole purpose of glorifying the ego of the wing suiter.Silly me, but I always thought that the student was the star of any tandem. The best staff complement this concept by trying to fade into the background.

[tdog 0]

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Looking at the picture it looks like the wingsuit pilot has approached from the rear. If that's the case, it's not how I buzz Tandems. My approach is always across the nose of the canopy... t

It looks like the WS was at a 45 degree angle, so that as he passed he was getting farther away, giving him a safety net for a sudden turn by the TI, plus the ability to bank away faster. It also looks like the camera flier was flying ahead of the TI..... I doubt this was the normal tandem video guy because they normally fall away from the tandem when they open - so this guy must have opened to intentionally take the photos - making the whole jump planned...

So, how would you setup the same type of photo with your flyby in front???

[phoenixlpr 0]

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OK, I am looking at this from an extreme point of view but if something went wrong and there was an incident do you think the tandem student or their family would say "thats OK we agreed to it" or "Wheres the Lawyer????" I'm guessing the latter.

??? If the wing suit flyer is not practiced enough it is just not going to happen. If he/she is, he/she can be in safe distance. It is not so easy to give a fly by. I think the risk is minor.

[freekflyguy 0]

Are you a tandem instructor?

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[phoenixlpr 0]

Negative.

I don't give a fly by to anyone without a prior agreement.

I was jumping after tandems. I was maintaining visual contact and gave the enough separation. I deploy about 1200m with wing suite.

The picture in question should be the result of hard work.

[jakee 1,500]

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so this guy must have opened to intentionally take the photos - making the whole jump planned...

It would be my guess that the photographer was also flying a wingsuit at the time. Maybe PM him to get the full story, he posts a lot in the WS forum.

It also looks to me like the subject passed the tandem quite high - further reducing the sudden turn danger?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[phoenixlpr 0]

Sudden turn?

I can fly 30-40m/s with my wing suite.

What is the forward speed of a tandem? 4-10 m/s?

Tandem should be just a balloon from the view of the wing suit flier.

[jakee 1,500]

Edited my post as I meant the opposite of what I originaly wrote

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[phoenixlpr 0]

Oh, wind of change? .

One thing if a TM has bad feelings.

Image when an ex-bird request WS flyer/flyers to have other pattern, because they want to have atmonauti dive!

[piisfish 140]

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I was wondering how many people out there think this is acceptable??

are you talking about the nuclear powerplant ?

Tandem buzzing is OK like Tonto said... TM must know (and be OK with it), wingsuiter must know what he's doing, passenger must also be aware IMO.

I'm a TM and a wingsuiter. I would'nt let "just anyone" buzz me, I wouldn't buzz "just any TM" or passenger either. If someone buzzed me, and it was not planned... Ass whoopin'...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Tonto 1]

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So, how would you setup the same type of photo with your flyby in front???

I wouldn't. I have very, very few photographs of me in freefall. Maybe 10, in 21 years. I'm not here for the pictures. Adding a camera to my Tandem fly-bys would add too many variables for me to be comfortable with my current skillset. Maybe when I'm more experienced I'll reconsider.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[jlmiracle 7]

I know of a situation where the someone flying wingsuit almost hit the tandem and didn't even see the tandem. TM saw him but he didn't see the Tandem.

j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[lug 4]

On the left side of the big pond, the USPA has nothing in the Basic Safety Requirements regarding wing suit fly-bys, so as far as doing a wing suit fly-by one will not be chastised by the USPA.

However in section 6-9 “Wing Suit Recommendations” in the Skydiver's Information Manual, does subject the fallowing. Remember this is only a recommendation.

J.1 “Wing suits should not be flown by or in the proximity of any student jumps.”
I would interpret this as applying to first jump tandem students, but because this is a recommendation an approval would most likely be set by drop zone policy.

J.2 “Wing suit jumps should not be made in the proximity of experienced jumpers without prior coordination with those jumpers.”
This is just a reminder for us to use our heads.

Personally as a TI, I do not have a problem with fly-bys if all members involved are in agreement, but if only one member is not in agreement then the fly-by’s off.

Memento Mori

[MarkM 0]

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I was wondering how many people out there think this is acceptable??

I think all that really matters is whether the TI, STA and DZO thought it was alright.

That looks like Palatka, the photo mentions that the TI is Art, who not only knows Matt and Mike, but is a wingsuiter himself and the DZO. Considering he was flocking with both of them over this weekend, I'm guessing he was cool with the whole thing.

[freekflyguy 0]

Im not to up on the USPA side of things, but in the UK the CCI carries the can.

I must admit that at a DZ I was running I would not allow it, not because I doubt the skills of the flyer or TI but more from a concern of the resulting hullabaloo should something go wrong.

If it was to happen without my prior approval then there would be serious talking too's going on.

Dont get me wrong, I am perfectly happy for skydivers to have fun, but bringing a non skydiver into the picture puts it in a whole new category.

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

[The111 1]

Wow, I just found this thread. Guess I missed it the first time!

The photo is mine. To answer a few questions.

Yes, everybody was in agreement: TI (Art), student, Mike (buzzer) and myself (photo). To address the comment that the student should be the focus of the tandem - well she enjoyed it a lot!

I was also flying a wingsuit when the photo was taken. To get a more clear idea of how the buzz happened, watch the video footage. Go to the video gallery here, and at 3:10 in "Summer 2006" video, you can see the buzz. We were passing at a 45 degree angle as somebody suggested, meaning we were in clear sight of the tandem. And it is very clear from the video how much distance I have from the tandem (the still photo is so grainy because it's zoomed in and cropped). It is not possible to tell how close the buzzer was (perspective), but I do know for a fact that he was not close enough for the tandem to "turn into him".

If you want to see something "close", watch the video footage from the jump which made Parachutist photo finish in December. That will make your jaw drop! But obviously the difference is that there were no students under those canopies.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[SkydiveMO 0]

What’s the point? You just did a fly-by on a student, even if the person in charge of the canopy is an experienced skydiver in the end a tandem is a “student jump”. Not matter how experienced the pilots involved there remains a level of risk. The point of the rules regarding students is to reduce the risks as much as possible. Keep the hot doggin’ for your licensed friends. I’ll never buy the reasoning “but the student said it was ok.” I’ve had tandem students, who I know weren't joking, who thought it would be cool for me to push them out of the plane unhooked so I could dive out and hook them up in freefall. Hell, many “experienced” skydivers don’t understand the risks involved with the sport so it reasons that many students don’t either. That’s why we get students suing over injuries using the argument “I know I signed the waiver but I didn’t think I’d really get hurt.”

[The111 1]

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What’s the point? You just did a fly-by on a student, even if the person in charge of the canopy is an experienced skydiver in the end a tandem is a “student jump”. Not matter how experienced the pilots involved there remains a level of risk. The point of the rules regarding students is to reduce the risks as much as possible. Keep the hot doggin’ for your licensed friends.

Flying 50 feet away from an open canopy is hardly "hot dogging". On the way to the DZ, I was driving down a 2-lane road going 65mph, and passed by probably a couple hundred cars within less than 5 feet (one of those cars might have even had some tandem students in it!). "No matter how good those drivers are, there's still a risk of one of them coming into my lane and hitting me at 130mph relative speed"... right? I guess technically that's true, but we all accept risk in this world we live in. I've been to swoop competitions where the spectators are all 20-30 feet away from extremely fast swoops. Proximity is much more important than closing speed in preventing a collision.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[SkydiveMO 0]

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Flying 50 feet away from an open canopy is hardly "hot dogging"

If it's not hot dogging then what would you call it? What training value does it offer a student out on their first jump? Again, what's the point?

[The111 1]

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Flying 50 feet away from an open canopy is hardly "hot dogging"

If it's not hot dogging then what would you call it? What training value does it offer a student out on their first jump?

I'm not really sure what the definition of "hot dogging" is, but I'd call it fun. Most people don't do a tandem for "training value", they do it to enjoy themselves. Do you realize that no matter how good the cameraman on a tandem jump is, he is adding risk for the student? Or those jumps where they build a 10-way RW formation off a tandem? Those certainly add risk too. And landing in the main landing area near swoopers and other parachutists adds risk too. Or those days when it's so windy that people with 1000 jumps are staying down, yet the tandems are still going? I'm not condoning that, I'm simply pointing that risk is everywhere, and risk "level" is extremely subjective.

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Again, what's the point?

The point, is having fun.

The issue, obviously, is at what proximity does a tandem flyby become "unsafe". This was debated ad nauseam in another thread a while back, and like a lot of things on this website, we won't all ever agree on the answer. But in my very humble opinion 50+ feet is a more than generous margin of safety with a tandem instructor who knows you very well and is expecting your flyby. I've had TWIN OTTERS buzz 10 feet over my head at the end of the day and not complained. My wingsuit is a lot more responsive than a giant airplane, and once I'm on a straight path to pass you 50 feet to your side, short of a heart attack, I'm not changing course.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com