Is my Wing Loading gonna kill me?

[udder 0]

DELETED

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

[DougH 270]

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People wll make mistakes and break bones. Just like skiing, BMX, cycling or rugby.

Exactly what is your point? Just like in skiing, bmx, and cycling; more speed, bigger engines, and bigger jumps mean bigger wrecks and bigger injuries.

The fact that people get hurt regardless isn't an argument won against being conservative.

Imagine what would have happened if that jumper was flying a smaller full elliptical instead of that navigator 200.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[PWScottIV 0]

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I've never jumped a Pilot, but from what I've seen, they have A LOT more glide than a Triathlon...

You mean in full flight, right? I really didn't notice THAT much difference in max-glide. It felt like it might've had a bit wider range (Full flight to Max Glide). Am I wrong about that?

Gravity Waits for No One.

[udder 0]

So where does your conservatism end, with people jumping PD300's? Cause by your logic it should. If purely safety was the only concern, we would never jump in more than 5 knots winds with pd 300's...

There is a point where people will trade safety for fun. At the moment that accepted equilibrium point is 1.1 to 1 for newbies(with really light people being the exception). 25 years ago it wasnt. It would have been crazy...

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

[MagicGuy 0]

Yes, in full flight. Wind penetration will probably be less with the Triathlon as well. Could be different because you are loading it higher than I load mine, as well.

[bob.dino 1]

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Im from Aus, hee every man and his dog loads at 1.2 off student status, and some at 1.4 with less than fifty jumps.

Bullshit. Maybe they are at York (should I call Mossy and ask?), but they sure as hell aren't at every other DZ in the country. I can't remember a single novice at Picton whose first canopy off student status was loaded at 1.2. It's possible that a couple of the big (100kg+) boys were loading theirs at around that, but I wouldn't be putting money on it.

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Lots of people are doing it and not dying. Canopies dont magically hook you in...

No, people hook them in when the canopy is moving faster than they can think.

[jbanning 0]

Well said......

[georgerussia 0]

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I am by no means an expert... but if it helps, i have 186 jumps and I'm still loading my canopy at a .88 wingloading.

Same to me, just slightly more jumps and wingloading about 0.95. And I'd like to add that I have no intention to downsize until I get 500 jumps (and probably even there).

I've done a few stupid things when my wingloading canopy type saved my bones. And I don't like titanium.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[udder 0]

Bob

These are heavy army guys (see also: SAS) on 170's. Mostly. Some on 150's when closer to 100 jumps. Everyone else is between 0.8(light girls) to around 1.2 (heavier guys)

Just saying it is being done. Though not by me

"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E

[philly51 0]

I don't think that you should down size right now. Given your jump numbers, you haven't mastered the canopy (and wing loading) you're jumping now. Take your time and get to know your canopy's flight characteristics in ALL conditions. High wind, light wind, cross wind, wind shear, etc. Pick a canopy that will snatch you away from the jaws of pain when you need it.

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, Shouting "...holy shit...what a ride!"

[DJL 235]

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Also, so you have a bit more info about who I am... I'm 31, pretty athletic and have been involved with "higher risk" sports like rock climbing (21 years), White Water Kayaking/Rafting (2 years), Car Racing, Caving, Snowboarding, and Surfing. I feel pretty confident in my ability to assess risk (at least once I've been involved with a particular activity for a decent amount of time), but I've only been skydiving for a short period of time.

These kind of things don't prove anything until you've completed the activity and have not killed yourself. If you really want to learn something then you have to think of yourself as a blank slate. Then when you succeed you'll be able to look back and realize that proficiency in one thing propably helped you in another, but you don't know that until it's all over. There are better ways to push yourself than overloading your canopy and you learn more faster by staying within a reasonable envelope.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[catfishhunter 2]

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I still jump a 139

that is a really subjective statement. I bet for you that sounds like a HUGE canopy, for me that would be a 1.87 wing loading. A better statment might have been "i'm at 1.xx wing loading with 1200 jumps".....Not trying to rip on ya but just throwing canopy size may not be the best approach. :)

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

I've done worse, when I had 58 jumps I got under a stiletto 120 (W/L about 1.2)... I don't recommend repeating my decision, although I did not get hurt.

If you're careful, and nothing goes horribly wrong, you will in all likleyhood be fine, but consider asking yourself the following question: "do I think I could get away with this 1000 times in a row, without getting hurt?" In 1000 jumps, chances are you'll have to land it downwind between the electric fence and the pitbull farm, and the odds are the same that it would happen on the 1st shot as the 1000th.

It sounds like you're doing the right things to get yourself educated and experienced... my recommendation would be to stick with the larger canopy for awhile yet... how long is really your decision.

More importantly, I recommend sticking with a specific canopy, or at least model and size, for awhile... it's almost impossible to learn basic canopy skills like flat-turns, braked flight, risers, even the flare, if you're switching back and forth every few jumps. The pilot and triathalon are both good canopies, but they are also very different, and each jump nets you only a few minutes at most to learn. Imagine trying to learn to drive a 5-speed, but only being allowed to drive it up and down the block once and then being given a different car. It'd be pretty tough to find that magic point where you don't stall, and it would be that much worse when you stall out turning left in a busy intersection.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[popsjumper 2]

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...It'd be pretty tough to find that magic point where you don't stall, and it would be that much worse when you stall out turning left in a busy intersection.

Oooooo...great analogy. I'm gonna use this one!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[2shay 0]

think you should go with the higher wing loading but is the lower goona kill you, probby not but at this point your new and fresh why not go by the numbers like so few of us did

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[phoenixlpr 0]

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but is the lower goona kill you,

It could be so many dead man walking among us and jumping accuracy or BASE with low WL.

[2shay 0]

did you see where I said PROBABLY

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[2shay 0]

want to correct what i said i meant he should go w lower wing loading first sorry all

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[astleysean 0]

Check out the thread that started -
"The 'Oh no its cool, I'm a really good skydiver' attiude"
(You'll have to search for it as I don't know how to put a link in!)

I load a sabre 2 at 1.2 and have similar concerns to you, I am a newbie with 65 jumps. I also have a background of risk sports including rock and ice climbing. I'm 40 so again I'm no youth. I saw someone snap their femur last year so I've seen the results of a f**k up fiirsthand.

I am still struck by the difference between first hand advice from instructors who know me and the opinions voiced on the forum. I jump regularly at two major UK dropzonces and have spoken with very well respected CCIs and instructors about this issue. No-one I have spoken to thinks I am being reckless with my wingloading. Views expressed in the forum seem to think I'm just another statistic waiting to happen.

It would be interesting to see if there's a difference between ;-
1. Those who know their inexperience, do the research, train canopy control specifically on every jump, get specific canopy coaching, avoid other canopies as if they were carrying the plague and WORK AT IT.
and
2. Those who may jump a more conservative wing loading but simply jump, pull, flare, land repeatedly for hundreds of jumps.

I've also ridden sports bikes for 20 years. Make a mistake on a fast bike and it will kill you. Ride a 400cc bike slowly for ten years and you've learnt very little. Ride a 400, get some training, ride a 600, do a few track days, get a 750 or a 1000 and some advanced training and within a couple of years you could be very competent. You've done fewer miles than the bloke pottering about on the 400 though. Whose safer? Whose having more fun?

Experience is what you know NOT how long it took you to learn it. Attitude must play a part. Jump numbers can only ever be part of the picture.

[Legs 0]

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"I am still struck by the difference between first hand advice from instructors who know me and the opinions voiced on the forum. I jump regularly at two major UK dropzonces and have spoken with very well respected CCIs and instructors about this issue. No-one I have spoken to thinks I am being reckless with my wingloading. Views expressed in the forum seem to think I'm just another statistic waiting to happen."

I can only agree with you that the advice given on these forums seems to differ greatly from the Instructors and CCI's I jump with.

I like your motorcycling analagy and extending that analagy. - the people happy to pootle around on a 400cc all there life and are happy exist in our sport too. Good luck to them, I wish I was one, but I am aware of my desire to be more adventurous. I am also happy to hold myself back in my own interest. I suppose self awareness and a balanced view is the key to managing the risk in a sport where the fun part is the high andrenaline bit. (remember that first jump?, remember the first jump on your own pack job? etc etc)

With love in Christ

[kelpdiver 2]

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I've also ridden sports bikes for 20 years. Make a mistake on a fast bike and it will kill you. Ride a 400cc bike slowly for ten years and you've learnt very little. Ride a 400, get some training, ride a 600, do a few track days, get a 750 or a 1000 and some advanced training and within a couple of years you could be very competent. You've done fewer miles than the bloke pottering about on the 400 though. Whose safer? Whose having more fun?

The counterpoint to that is the large number of people who briefly own a 600, buy an R1 or similar, and use the throttle to make up for their total lack of handling skill, something that you have to use on the 400 to ride smoothly.

Track days do very little to improve survival odds on the road. Are negative if the person uses them to ride WFO on Skyline. The guy on the mythical (in the US) 400 is safer.

Who's having more fun? Guess that depends on the frame of reference. An unfaired 400 is no fun on a freeway where traffic flow is 75. Plenty of fun on a scenic backroad with a posted limit of 35.

Fatality wise, I didn't see a lot of accidents in the 1.2 range - no more than 1.0 or 1.1. Some bad decisions are WL independent. But I didn't see any information about injuries which are poorly reported. Me personally, tried the 1.2 thing in those early days and didn't like it much.

[amir1967 0]

Sorry I didn't take the time to read all the reply, But I thougth the quistion was, Is my wingload gonna kill me? well. yes. and if you jump the Pilot also yes . I think Manta 288 can kill you if you turn low.
(but what do I know I got 6 years ago Vengeance 170 @ 1.4 with 50 jump)

So take care listen to people you trust and do what you feel comfertable with

AM67

[Rich2002 0]

am on 55 jumps and I down sized to a saber2 170 on my 25 and thats what I own now and have never felt unsafe on it. I have not tried anything to drastic just starting to play a bit with front riser dives and turns but have always felt in control. Not sure of my wing loading but I am about 83 KG so as long as you are sensible and work within your limits I say enjoy a higher performance canopy.

[Scrumpot 1]

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so as long as you are sensible and work within your limits I say enjoy a higher performance canopy.

That almost sounds good, in theory. However, the point and consideration that you are missing out on (entirely apparently) in this, just on this statement is: Sure, - maybe under closely controlled IDEAL circumstances. Nice open flat landing area around and under you for miles for instance. Always into the 5-10mph consistent winds, etc. - But what happens to you the 1st time you have to land off in a tight spot? Avoid an obstacle? Cross wind because you set yourself up badly, or worse yet downwind? How about coming in on your final and all of a sudden you see another jumper closing right along your path and you need to REACT? What are you gonna do? What's gonna now happen to you?

We can tell you. There are way WAY too many incidences in here to CLEARLY illustrate why this is a BAD idea!

Not ranking on you, but please - reconsider.

Do you know what your limits are?
THINK about this.

You have what now, 55 total jumps? And you've downsized you say already to a 170? What did you downsize from, just out of curiosity? How much at 55 TOTAL jumps do you think you already KNEW about even your previous canopy? Could you do (and consistently) all the items on BillVon's list? *(hint for you: That's a rhetorical question!)

83kg is more than 180 lbs (like what 182-3?) then add your gear - what do we use now for sandard on that 25lbs? I can tell you that you are over 1.2 W/L out the door.

NOT SMART, and then even if you THINK (as you apparently do) that this is okay for you, CERTAINLY NOTHING TO BE ADVOCATED!!

Please think, and reconsider.

I say this only out of legitimate caring and concern.
But even if you don't, please don't come on here and ADVOCATE positions you clearly yourself do not KNOW enough about. - PLEASE!

We skydivers can certainly be pig-headed. Comes with the territory in the 1st place. But again, if you would - and even for yourself, PLEASE reconsider now, even your own apparent, current situation too. You'll have PLENTY OF TIME to progress. If you allow yourself to that is.

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[Fast 0]

Quote

Check out the thread that started -
"The 'Oh no its cool, I'm a really good skydiver' attiude"
(You'll have to search for it as I don't know how to put a link in!)

I load a sabre 2 at 1.2 and have similar concerns to you, I am a newbie with 65 jumps. I also have a background of risk sports including rock and ice climbing. I'm 40 so again I'm no youth. I saw someone snap their femur last year so I've seen the results of a f**k up fiirsthand.

I am still struck by the difference between first hand advice from instructors who know me and the opinions voiced on the forum. I jump regularly at two major UK dropzonces and have spoken with very well respected CCIs and instructors about this issue. No-one I have spoken to thinks I am being reckless with my wingloading. Views expressed in the forum seem to think I'm just another statistic waiting to happen.

It would be interesting to see if there's a difference between ;-
1. Those who know their inexperience, do the research, train canopy control specifically on every jump, get specific canopy coaching, avoid other canopies as if they were carrying the plague and WORK AT IT.
and
2. Those who may jump a more conservative wing loading but simply jump, pull, flare, land repeatedly for hundreds of jumps.

I've also ridden sports bikes for 20 years. Make a mistake on a fast bike and it will kill you. Ride a 400cc bike slowly for ten years and you've learnt very little. Ride a 400, get some training, ride a 600, do a few track days, get a 750 or a 1000 and some advanced training and within a couple of years you could be very competent. You've done fewer miles than the bloke pottering about on the 400 though. Whose safer? Whose having more fun?

Experience is what you know NOT how long it took you to learn it. Attitude must play a part. Jump numbers can only ever be part of the picture.

That works in theory but not in practice. The difference between your situation and skydiving is this. When you fuck up on a bike, if you just make one mistake the end result can range from death to just some adrenaline pumping through your veins. When you get lucky and don't get hurt you can stop, pull over, whatever. Think about what happened and slow things down. At least in many cases. In skydiving the outcomes can be similar, however, in most cases after you get done solving one "problem" or recover from one mistake you have often created another problem or have 2 more to deal with before you are on the ground and able to "stop." The chain of events that often lead to someone being injured or killed in skydiving is what gets you. I am not saying that doesn't happen riding bikes, but you have MANY more options to say fuck this, TIME OUT. In skydiving the only option you have for a time out is hitting the ground. One way or another it is going to happen, but you may not like the outcome.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka