Packing for slower openings

[bsrodeo540 31]

Hey guys, I have recently got a slightly used Safire 139 (first one, not II). On my first jumps I noticed it opens up a bit fast for my liking, basically there is no snivel at all. It does not bang me either, just opens fast, by the time I look up my slider is usually down or almost down.

I psycho pack (love it cause I hate S-folds and it is so much easier to put the thing in the bag). I roll my cells to the inside, don't leave the center one out, just two rolls and a slider sticking out. I don't do too much to the tail, just kind of slightly roll all the rags to the inside. Everything else is as per usual pack job.

What things can I do to slow down my openings and get that sweet snivel back? :)

Every life comes with a death sentence. Until then, who's in charge?

[lyosha 50]

Fair warning - try at your own risk. This is not meant as a "how to pack your canopy" tutorial of any kind.

Two potential suggestions:

1. Roll the end cells the other way and tuck them into the middle cell. My fiance' does that on her Sabre1 (non-psycho packed) and it actually snivels. Heading performance seems to deteriorate a bit though, so perhaps not the best idea on a highly loaded canopy.

2. If that fails, get your rigger to sew a pocket on your slider. I have one on my Sabre1 and it gets 800 ft snivels.

[bsrodeo540 31]

Spasibo Lyoha! :) Will try #1 first. Safires are known for a bit faster openings (what I get from these forums) but nowhere near what Sabres are known for.

I know some people are rolling the tail also (I used to do it when I stack packed) but doing it while psycho or pro packing when your canopy is hanging is not very handy, it all falls apart anyways..

Every life comes with a death sentence. Until then, who's in charge?

[hookitt 1]

Assuming the pack job is proper and inserted into the bag without losing control of the slider... Get a slider that is 2-4 inches deeper front to back. It fixes any fast opening Sabre also.

Or add a pocket to the slider.

Don't stuff anything into the center cell.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[DJL 235]

Post a video of your pack job.

Also, if you're having trouble putting it in the bag with a propack then there's help but it's hard to explain over the internet. Unless you have a new canopy there shouldn't be an issue.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[JWest 0]

I pack a lot. Sport rigs constantly. When you are rolling the nose roll the 4 cells on either side of the nose three times to the outside/down/away from you. Whatever way makes it easier to understand. This should make it so you can put your hand on the seam of either side of the center cell and slide your hand outwards and not unroll the nose. The tighter you make the rolls the slower it opens. I usually do three loose ones. For the nose keep it out. You want that to be the fist thing to catch air. make a little pyramid shape. So the same thing with the front of the slider. It will make the chute open is a even staged manner.

[DJL 235]

I'll be honest, there shouldn't be any reason to psycho pack but I don't know enough about it to say what's wrong.

Is the canopy in trim?

To answer you're question (strictly from my perspective) I would have to see how you propack because it shouldn't be that hard. I teach it at our DZ and in a way that is easy to learn and easy to get in the bag.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[JWest 0]

Plenty of reasons to psyco pack. Better control of opening, staged inflation, and more on heading openings are all good reasons.

[justme12001 0]

I've always had faster openings with psycho packing. There is nothing wrong with it, I have just noticed I have always had faster openings.

Learn to propack it and see if that helps at all. I also like to roll the tail pretty tight to slow down openings.

[bsrodeo540 31]

Again, it's not that I cannot pro pack, it's just I find it easier and faster to psycho.. Plus all other above mentioned reasons. And honestly, always believed psycho should not add any speed to the opening process, but after a few comments here starting to doubt that..

Question about rolling the tail "tight" - how do you do that when you canopy is hanging down from your shoulder? In psycho packing when I flip my canopy on the ground, I have an access to the nose to roll it, but my tail is facing the ground; and when I'm trying to do it still hanging - it kind of falls apart anyways, I cannot roll it tight for sure..

Also liked the proposed idea of a deeper slider.

The pocket on the slider - I dunno, if it was Sabre, yes, but feels unwarranted in this case, plus adds some pain attaching your slider behind your back after opening..

Every life comes with a death sentence. Until then, who's in charge?

[JWest 0]

Try what I suggested. I am sure it will help. The way to get the tail tighter on a psyco pack is to cross the edge of the tail pretty tight just below the slider grommets. Then cross the rest of the canopy while holding the previously crossed part with your knee. The bottom edge of the canopy should cross entirely across your canopy. As long as it doesn't pull your lines out.

[karma 3]

JWest

Plenty of reasons to psyco pack. Better control of opening, staged inflation, and more on heading openings are all good reasons.

I'm not sure if this is the case. I think a lot of what you said here is perception and assumption. What we see a lot of is that when people think something will cause a specific outcome, people tend to only see that outcome. For instance when a we see a student as being disruptive, we only see the disruptive side of his behavior because we focus on it. Our opinions are colored by our own beliefs.

I don't think there has ever been a fair and good comparison between pro-packing vs. phyco packing. I'm not aware of research into packing and the resulting opening characteristics. To claim either one is better then the other is a matter of opinion and not fact. Also to claim one causes better on-heading is, in my opinion, not fair. I would hypothesize that on-heading openings are more a characteristic of the canopies design and body position on opening then that it has to do with pro or phyco-pack.

Having said that, if people prefer phyco-pack over pro-pack they should use that method. I for one prefer pro-pack and have always had good result.

[DJL 235]

bsrodeo540

Again, it's not that I cannot pro pack, it's just I find it easier and faster to psycho.. Plus all other above mentioned reasons. And honestly, always believed psycho should not add any speed to the opening process, but after a few comments here starting to doubt that..

I can pack anything under a 150 in less than 5 minutes with nice on heading openings without skipping steps. Part of that is that I've worked as a packer for several years so I'm efficient. The problem with skydivers is that most have only about as many pack jobs as they do skydives and that's just not enough.

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Question about rolling the tail "tight" - how do you do that when you canopy is hanging down from your shoulder? In psycho packing when I flip my canopy on the ground, I have an access to the nose to roll it, but my tail is facing the ground; and when I'm trying to do it still hanging - it kind of falls apart anyways, I cannot roll it tight for sure..

There's no need to make the tail tight, in fact if you do then all you're doing is separating your line groups by pulling all that material around the sides and also creating off heading openings because the rolls will windmill through opening. Only roll it enough to take in excess material, should be 6 but no more than 8 rolls. See below for a continuation of the bigger picture.

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Also liked the proposed idea of a deeper slider.

The pocket on the slider - I dunno, if it was Sabre, yes, but feels unwarranted in this case, plus adds some pain attaching your slider behind your back after opening..

Meh, let's be honest, it's probably not that big of a deal. If all else fails I like my neck and the skin under my leg straps, I'll forgo tucking in another little bit of material.

The big picture: Is slider control. A lot of cheat methods for getting the canopy in the bag allow the area around the slider to split open a bit (such as folding the top half and bagging it first). If you learn to pack so that you're getting tight corners and controlling the fabric then you'll get even the most slippery canopies in easy. I've been meaning to make a video for our class. I'll post it and maybe that'll help. Again, it's hard to give canopy packing help over the internet because what you think you're having trouble with may not be what's causing the problems.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[Southern_Man 0]

bsrodeo540

It does not bang me either, just opens fast, by the time I look up my slider is usually down or almost down.

What things can I do to slow down my openings and get that sweet snivel back? :)

If it is only fast (and not hard), why do you want to slow down the openings?

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[bsrodeo540 31]

I find fast openings uncomfortable and enjoy the snivel, it's just the matter of personal preference really. The snivel after I through my PC is one of those parts of the jumps I find enjoyable. Plus slower openings = less stress on your lines and fabric.

Thanks everyone for the ideas, I'll try them out and see what happens. Blue Skies!

Every life comes with a death sentence. Until then, who's in charge?

[bsrodeo540 31]

DJL

The big picture: Is slider control. A lot of cheat methods for getting the canopy in the bag allow the area around the slider to split open a bit (such as folding the top half and bagging it first).

Discovered this thread and decided to post my results in case someone is facing the same issue in the future. Basically, from my findings, as DJL said (thank you for pointing this out), good slider control during packing solved the issue for me.

First, I make sure slider grommets are always tight against the edge of the canopy and never slide back down the lines when I put my canopy on the ground. Second, quartering the slider: I used to put too much emphasis on the "quartering" part, meaning ensuring that each quarter of the slider is tucked neatly between the lines and inside the stabilizers. I found that actually creates an issue so that when I do that - my slider center that I have just tucked deep into the center of the canopy between the line groups, slides back up a little.

Now I make sure I tuck it in really well and spread the corners that stick out neatly without tension, so that the slider itself stays deep where it needs to be. Also, once on the ground (again, I psycho-pack), I grab the center of the slider and pull it up once again before folding the triangle. Also, when actually folding the triangle, I put my knee just over where the slider grommets are and make sure whatever I do after does not cause the slider fabric inside my packjob to slide down.

That, on top of rolling my cells toward the center a bit tighter and leaving the center cell out, along with always double-stowing ALL my lines (I used to do it only on the first two stows) ensured consistent nice and pleasant (but not too long) snivels.

Every life comes with a death sentence. Until then, who's in charge?

[DJL 235]

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along with always double-stowing ALL my lines (I used to do it only on the first two stows) ensured consistent nice and pleasant (but not too long) snivels.

To clarify for readers, locking stows typically are single stowed but it's still important to ensure that they are not loose because that's how you get an out of sequence opening that has a real danger of causing an injury.

On the remaining stows always double stow with large bands, single with smaller.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[RMURRAY 1]

for the best balance of risks, PD recommends double wrapping all stows and using 2 inch rubber bands. edit,,,of course this is not a PD but i tend to listen to everything they have to say.

[mxk 1]

DJL

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along with always double-stowing ALL my lines (I used to do it only on the first two stows) ensured consistent nice and pleasant (but not too long) snivels.

To clarify for readers, locking stows typically are single stowed but it's still important to ensure that they are not loose because that's how you get an out of sequence opening that has a real danger of causing an injury.

On the remaining stows always double stow with large bands, single with smaller.

As Rob pointed out, PD put out a couple of videos specifically addressing the "Locking Stow Myth" and the real guidelines for selecting rubber band size and wrapping method. All stows should require 8-12 lbs to release. How you achieve that will depend on the line type, number of cells, location of the stow (by the cascades or further down), and rubber band size. There is no one-size-fits-all solution.

[DJL 235]

mxk

***

Quote

along with always double-stowing ALL my lines (I used to do it only on the first two stows) ensured consistent nice and pleasant (but not too long) snivels.

To clarify for readers, locking stows typically are single stowed but it's still important to ensure that they are not loose because that's how you get an out of sequence opening that has a real danger of causing an injury.

On the remaining stows always double stow with large bands, single with smaller.

As Rob pointed out, PD put out a couple of videos specifically addressing the "Locking Stow Myth" and the real guidelines for selecting rubber band size and wrapping method. All stows should require 8-12 lbs to release. How you achieve that will depend on the line type, number of cells, location of the stow (by the cascades or further down), and rubber band size. There is no one-size-fits-all solution.

Agreed, people typically only single-stow their locking stows because there's enough tension there but it's important to know that the amount of tension is more important. Every once in while I'll see a bag where the canopy doesn't fill out the the bag and the side stows are a bit more loose, that's a recipe for an out-of-sequence and very hard opening.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[skytribe 17]

DJL

Agreed, people typically only single-stow their locking stows because there's enough tension there but it's important to know that the amount of tension is more important. Every once in while I'll see a bag where the canopy doesn't fill out the the bag and the side stows are a bit more loose, that's a recipe for an out-of-sequence and very hard opening.

In my experience of questioning people who are single stowing the locking stows, its because they have bought into the myth of double stowing causing bag locks. I simply refer them to PD's videos/blogs and tell them this information is coming direct from the manufacturers and based upon tangible evidence and not anecdotal stories about a friend of a friend who knew someone that once saw a bag lock.

Which do you see more frequently - hard openings or bag locks. ?

Bag locks are such an infrequently seen malfunction more likely caused by something other than a correctly stowed double band.

[Unstable 9]

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Bag locks are such an infrequently seen malfunction more likely caused by something other than a correctly stowed double band.

Agree. The 2x baglocks I recently chased into a cornfield for friends were both caused by incorrect assembly of the main deployment bag and main PC.

=========Shaun ==========

[airnutt 11]

most of the ideas are good even the pocket slider,just remember pocket sliders can stay up longer after a long snivel and after a hundred jumps or so you may start to see some wear on the bartacks where the a & b lines cascade, also make sure p/c size is not too big for the canopy size your jumping, check and see if your local rigger can build you a dome slider, theres a few out there