Tandems jumping first. Safe?

[aguila 0]

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Aguila's profile:
Occupation: Physician

(Big shocker, ay?)

dude, people are trying to give you explanations and you're reading only the bits that fit into your frame of reference.

I am just trying to avoid fatalities.

There are many people here much more experienced than me and you from whom I can learn -and have learned a lot and that is why I posted my question. Of course there are others that THINK THEY KNOW

Do you remember Chernobyl? An engineer did not dare to tell his boss there were something wrong with the nuclear reactor because he felt he was nobody to contradict his boss?

Well. This is not my case. I am positive tandems should exit last for the sake of safety. If they exit first the next jumper should compensate by allowing more separation. I did not did it and was about to collide. I am sure people reading this thread, you included, will keep this in mind when jumping right after a tandem. If you, the tandem and the others land safely I will be very happy.

Good jump!
Ps. Do you think this is wrong? If so, seriously, please post your arguments so that we can learn from you

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[aguila 0]

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As a general rule sure, tandems should go later. However, exit order had absolutely nothing to do with you almost getting hurt. You didn't allow enough seperation.

Do you mean that separation has nothing to do with exit order?

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[OnYourBack 0]

"Do you mean that separation has nothing to do with exit order"

Yes. You need to take care with both for the safest experience, but they are two separate and independent things. If there is enough separation, then order is irrelevant. If you don't allow enough separation you are at risk with those before you. It doesn't matter if its a solo freefly, big way RW or tandem.

[aguila 0]

"Do you mean that separation has nothing to do with exit order"

Yes. You need to take care with both for the safest experience, but they are two separate and independent things. If there is enough separation, then order is irrelevant. If you don't allow enough separation you are at risk with those before you. It doesn't matter if its a solo freefly, big way RW or tandem.


Where's the hidden cam? (second time I ask that here )

The exit order helps to keep enough separation. Otherwise we could exit anyway.

Do you remember what wing load means? Which one will land first from the the same altitude and same weight: a sabre 150? Or DCM 280? Did you get it? If not, jump a 280 and try to reach a 150 that exits before you! It has to do with exit order!

It is similar before opening the canopy. That is why some skydivers need extra weight: to keep level

Hey! You have much more jumps than me

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[billvon 2,997]

>Do you mean that separation has nothing to do with exit order?

Slow fallers exit first; fast fallers exit last. This means that from a pure separation point of view tandems should exit after RW but before freeflyers.

However, tandems often exit last because the last people sometimes find themselves far upwind, and tandems have the best chance of making it back from bad spots, since they open high. That's the practical reason they usually get out last.

[aguila 0]

Thanks! And people opening higher should exit after people opening lower so that they have enough separation when they reach the same altitude with very different speeds

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[billvon 2,997]

>And people opening higher should exit after people opening lower so
>that they have enough separation when they reach the same altitude with
>very different speeds . . .

You're talking about something a bit different there. Horizontal separation is set by time between groups and fall rate, and doesn't have much to do with vertical separation. RW groups can pull high (or have premature openings.) Tandems can have malfunctions, and they often have cameramen associated with them who open much lower. All this means that you cannot rely on vertical separation in the place of horizontal separation. Tandems often exit last, but that's generally because they can make it back from bad spots, not because they guarantee separation by getting out last.

Gonzalo, it sounds like you want to hear something specific, and are listening pretty selectively to try to hear the answer you want. And that's fine - tandems out last works well at most drop zones. I just want you to be aware that the problem you described initially was NOT due to "tandems out first" - it was due to insufficient horizontal separation, and waiting longer between groups will solve that problem.

[Scrumpot 1]

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Well. This is not my case. I am positive tandems should exit last for the sake of safety. If they exit first the next jumper should compensate by allowing more separation.

No, your case is that you just did not allow enough time before making your exit for proper horizontal separation, PERIOD. Your "case" could have happened just as readily if you had been exiting behind either this tandem OR an RW group for that matter. You seem to keep missing this one most critical point, no matter who, or how many people are trying to tell it to you!

You do not need more separation from a tandem any more than any other group at all (and because tandems can not track potentially up the line of flight underneath you, perhaps even less - but that is a whole other "can of worms") - Just CORRECT and PROPER separation between every (and ANY) group. Which bottom line, it is clear YOU did not provide here, ...in this case.

Please step back, take a breath, and more objectively consider this.

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[aguila 0]

[reply
Gonzalo, it sounds like you want to hear something specific, and are listening pretty selectively to try to hear the answer you want. And that's fine - tandems out last works well at most drop zones. I just want you to be aware that the problem you described initially was NOT due to "tandems out first" - it was due to insufficient horizontal separation, and waiting longer between groups will solve that problem.

[aguila 0]

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Well. This is not my case. I am positive tandems should exit last for the sake of safety. If they exit first the next jumper should compensate by allowing more separation.

No, your case is that you just did not allow enough time before making your exit for proper horizontal separation, PERIOD. Your "case" could have happened just as readily if you had been exiting behind either this tandem OR an RW group for that matter. You seem to keep missing this one most critical point, no matter who, or how many people are trying to tell it to you!

You do not need more separation from a tandem any more than any other group at all (and because tandems can not track potentially up the line of flight underneath you, perhaps even less - but that is a whole other "can of worms") - Just CORRECT and PROPER separation between every (and ANY) group. Which bottom line, it is clear YOU did not provide here, ...in this case.

Your words: "You do not need more separation from a tandem any more than any other group at all" and

"... it is clear YOU did not provide here, ..."

Then, please could you tell me exactly how many seconds I should have waited and how many seconds I waited?

If you prefer not to answer be sure I would understand

Blue Skies too!

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[piisfish 140]

Gonzalo, you wrote :

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If they exit first the next jumper should compensate by allowing more separation. I did not did it and was about to collide.

Many DZ's send tandems first, many others send them last. Sometimes they change their way of doing due to several variables : wind, actual dropping zone etc etc.

Discuss your point with the DZO, manager, instructors etc. Try also to listen to their point. Give more separation anyways. Have fun and stay safe. If you don't like the way they do it, try and find another place to jump where you think you can do as they like.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[aguila 0]

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Discuss your point with the DZO, manager, instructors etc. Try also to listen to their point. Give more separation anyways. Have fun and stay safe. If you don't like the way they do it, try and find another place to jump where you think you can do as they like.

Thank you Nicholas,

Someone told me here that I must allow the same separation for groups and tandems and that the incident was my fault.

I asked him how many seconds I should have waited and how many seconds I waited. I am sure I will not receive any answer. Many replies have shown similar arguments.

If a tandem exits before me knowing that I will open lower, that is a mistake. Of course I must try to compensate it as much as I can allowing more separation. But it does not justify the tandem pilot's mistake.

It is easier to tell " you should have done this or done that" when you are safe on the ground, with your laptop and a beer in front of you. I have not mentioned all the circumstances of this incident because I am looking for a default rule: NO TANDEMS EXIT FIRST because they open higher than the following jumpers.

Most, if not all fatalities had occurred when unexpected circumstances affected a given event. That is why safety rules must be plain and simple, with no exceptions if possible, mainly when dealing with extreme sports.

Be sure I will allow much more separation when it happens to me again. Unfortunatlly, from this thread I am sure it will happen again many times and hopefully the skydivers behind the tandem allow much more separation than the separation suggested after groups.

If anyone wants to tell me again the incident was my fault, please post how many seconds would have s/he waited and how many seconds I waited. (If PM I will post it here) Volunteers? ... I guess not

Well, I am going to pack my chute!
Good jump!

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[billvon 2,997]

>because I am looking for a default rule: NO TANDEMS EXIT FIRST
>because they open higher than the following jumpers.

That's not really enforceable as an overall rule. That's like asking for a hard and fast rule that says "No small canopies for RW people because they make landing pattern congestion more of a problem." That rule might indeed clean up some landing congestion issues but it's just not practical.

>If anyone wants to tell me again the incident was my fault, please post
>how many seconds would have s/he waited and how many seconds I
>waited.

The incident was no one's 'fault' because there was no incident to speak of, just a close encounter. But if you want to know how many seconds you should have waited to ensure safe separation, post the groundspeed/heading of the aircraft and the windspeed/heading at 3000 feet and I'll give you a rough answer in terms of seconds.

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

As it is now, with tandems traditionally up at the front of the plane, TMs start bitching at around 9K until they get like half the plane to hook-up their students and then its not like they let folks move back forward once they get em hooked up... If tandems went first...

I wonder how that would change TMs bitchin' about needing "extra room" to hook up their students...

[tkhayes 348]

It should not be their decision, if you own or control the dropzone, and you think it is safer or the best policy, then you fucking well TELL THEM that they are goin last.
Of course you have to also live with your decisions, so I suspect you have reservations yourself.

It makes sense here at Skydive City, we have Otters, and the tandems can go last, they have more flexibility about the spot, they can open higher, they have better canopy skills and generally no matter what, they make it home.

[piisfish 140]

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Someone told me here that I must allow the same separation for groups and tandems and that the incident was my fault.

I asked him how many seconds I should have waited and how many seconds I waited. I am sure I will not receive any answer. Many replies have shown similar arguments.

If a tandem exits before me knowing that I will open lower, that is a mistake. Of course I must try to compensate it as much as I can allowing more separation. But it does not justify the tandem pilot's mistake.

I have not mentioned all the circumstances of this incident because I am looking for a default rule: NO TANDEMS EXIT FIRST because they open higher than the following jumpers.

That is why safety rules must be plain and simple, with no exceptions if possible, mainly when dealing with extreme sports.

If anyone wants to tell me again the incident was my fault, please post how many seconds would have s/he waited and how many seconds I waited. (If PM I will post it here) Volunteers? ... I guess not

Gonzalo, please, be open to receiving different opinions from other people, some of which are far more experienced than you and me.

YOU KNEW the tandem was exiting before you. YOU should have let more separation. YOU screwed up, got scared, and won't admit it. Everybody screws up, many of us are hopefully lucky enough to be able to write/talk about it and learn from them mistakes.

Now noone will tell you how long you should have staid, or even less how long you staid in the plane after the TM exited. Why ? Because we don't know the wind conditions you had. Did you know the wind conditions ?

In places like Johannesburg SC they have a paper in the plane with separation time between groups according to wind conditions. IIRC wind conditions are also given. Like that you know how long you should stay (but you should still have a look about what's happening below)

In Empuriabrava (biggest DZ in Europe, that's why they can do it always wrong ) usually Tandems exit 1st, Why ? because of the configuration of the DZ, the landing zones and the general wind conditions. Sometimes they turn the exit order the other way round. Why ? Because conditions are different.

Already happened to me to have over 40 (yes fourty) seconds between groups. Why ? Upper winds were hauling ass and the plane had no forward speed.

Now rules must be able to be adapted. Historically in the animal reign, the ones who survived were not the strongest, the fastest or the smartest. The ones who survived were the ones who could adapt to the changing environment.

And our sport is NOT an extreme sport. It is a high knowledge/long tuition sport. You have to learn about gear, about weather, about aerodynamics, about laws, about flying techniques etc...

Enjoy your jumps too man. And remember, minds are like parachutes, they work better when they are open.

Edit to add :

P.S. At my DZ tandems usually exit last

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[aguila 0]

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As it is now, with tandems traditionally up at the front of the plane, TMs start bitching at around 9K until they get like half the plane to hook-up their students and then its not like they let folks move back forward once they get em hooked up... If tandems went first...

I wonder how that would change TMs bitchin' about needing "extra room" to hook up their students...

You could not have described it better! I knew I had forgotten something when posting to this: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2621172;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

BTW, we usually keep the door removed. So, the tandem student is very close to the door (hole) with no parachute

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

... for the most part, I don't give a shit... TMs bitchin' about room to hook-up their students is like folks bitchin' about the spot... its one of those things that will go on in skydiving until the end of time... you can get all pissed off about it back at them, or you can shine it on and snicker to yourself when ever you see a TM get puked on, have to haul some 7' tall basket ball player type, or haul some 40 - 50ish some year old desperate housewife that's wider then she is tall and has spent the last 20+ years sittin' on the couch eatting bon-bons and thus now feels she's prepared to go try the most extreme sport around...

anyway...



I suppose you could put tandems out first safely, but if I were next after them, I'd suppose my first blush would be to give them some extra time since they open higher.

Also, I thought part of the "theory" of tandems going last was not only because they open higher, but because their minimum bail-out altitude was higher? The last thing I'd want to be in is an Otter at 3K with an engine on fire and the pilot saying everyone out with two or three TMs, tandem students & video folks between me and the door.

[el_chester 4]

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However, tandems often exit last because the last people sometimes find themselves far upwind, and tandems have the best chance of making it back from bad spots, since they open high. That's the practical reason they usually get out last.

I would assume that therefore when tandems malfunction, they have a pretty good chance of landing out under reserve. Is anyone aware of any injuries because of out-landings under reserve on tandems?

Even if having tandems exit last is the common practice almost everywhere, if I was a tandem master, I would feel uncomfortable knowing that on long spots, I am likely to land out if I have a malfunction. Of course this varies from DZ to DZ, but for DZs where a long spot puts the malfunctioned tandem pair in a compromised situation, I'd revise procedures.

--
Be careful giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it.

[aguila 0]

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Gonzalo, please, be open to receiving different opinions from other people, some of which are far more experienced than you and me.

YOU KNEW the tandem was exiting before you. YOU should have let more separation. YOU screwed up, got scared, and won't admit it. Everybody screws up, many of us are hopefully lucky enough to be able to write/talk about it and learn from them mistakes.

Now noone will tell you how long you should have staid, or even less how long you staid in the plane after the TM exited. Why ? Because we don't know the wind conditions you had. Did you know the wind conditions ?

P.S. At my DZ tandems usually exit last

Nicholas, nobody knew the scenario, wind, how long I waited, etc, so they could not tell if I did it wrong or right, got scared (or very scared ,) etc Fortunately it did not happen the way you say.

Briefly:

I was bound to jump after a tandem and a friend followed me filming. Winds: 0 said the pilots. I posted a Poll where you can see the full scenario.

When I was hanging out of the door saw a big cloud coming straight to us. I should not wait much to avoid it so that I could keep an eye on the tandem but waited the longest I could considering the conditions.

I did some maneuvers (no tracking) for my friend to film. Unfortunately we could not avoid the cloud. I was very worried about the tandem and tried to spot it.

Got it! As soon as I was about to leave the cloud - 4000 ft, I spotted the tandem with its canopy open right below me. I cannot tell exactly how far, maybe 450 ft.

I just tracked as fast as possible, saw a fast shadow on my right side, lost some balance, recovered, etc. and landed. Did I get scared and screwed it up? Fortunately not.

Mistake? SURE! Tandems must not jump first. They open a lot higher than the jumpers following them AND the TM student, WITH NO PARACHUTE, is very close to door - I should call it hole because many people remove the plane's door.

Just imagine an unexpected move of the plane at 9000 ft and the student falls. Then?

You are right: minds are like parachutes, they work better when they are open . . . but you should wear and use them

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[DougH 270]

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Nicholas, nobody knew the scenario, wind, how long I waited, etc, so they could not tell if I did it wrong or right, got scared (or very scared ,) etc

They don't need to know any of the conditions that were present that day. The fact that you passed another very close to a jumper under canopy while still in freefall, in this case a tandem, means that you were wrong in the delay that you took before exiting. The tandem didn't track up jump run in order to end up under your group, you just didn't wait long enough.

Don't forget that by your own words you came pretty damn close to killing them. You said you wanted to make your DZ safer, so why exactly are you arguing with every one?

Even if the tandems got out last you would have nearly had a collision with a different group if everything else was equal. Worse yet a rw group would have done some tracking unlike the tandem.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[aguila 0]

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They don't need to know any of the conditions that were present that day.

You mean you can tell anything you want without having any idea of what you are talking about?

Sure.. you can

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[DougH 270]

Yes we can.

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As soon as I was about to leave the cloud - 4000 ft, I spotted the tandem with its canopy open right below me. I cannot tell exactly how far, maybe 450 ft.

The tandems aren't the saftey issue, you are.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[aguila 0]

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Yes we can.

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As soon as I was about to leave the cloud - 4000 ft, I spotted the tandem with its canopy open right below me. I cannot tell exactly how far, maybe 450 ft.

The tandems aren't the saftey issue, you are.

sure

Gonzalo

It cannot be done really means I do not know how to do it ... yet

[mnealtx 0]

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The exit order helps to keep enough separation. Otherwise we could exit anyway.

You're confusing yourself, I think. Exit order does NOT equal separation. If you had a long enough jump run, you could alternate tandems and freeflyers, if you wanted to - it's the DELAY BETWEEN EXITS that gives you the separation, everything else being equal.

Exit order is usually set up to compliment exit DELAY so as to provide the most HORIZONTAL separation between adjacent groups.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706