Paraplegic Skydive - Ideas on Landing

[peter_d 0]

I'm a paraplegic with a T6 SCI (that's an injury just below my chest), I have no movement in my legs but I really want to start solo skydiving on the AFF (Accelerated Freefall) course - my problem is that I have not got a clue how to land.

I have contacted the BPA (British Parachuting Association) and they have told me that there is no regulation that says that I can't do it, I just need to find an airfield that will throw me out of a plane and until I figure out a way to land that won't happen.

I know that amputees go skydiving but they don't have their legs in the way, the BPA have never heard of anyone in a wheelchair going solo before - any ideas?

[chuckakers 425]

You might try this link as a starting point for info

http://www.jagworksdesign.com/html/Para%20skydive%20manual.htm

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[humanflite 0]

hi Peter

There are a couple of 'pioneers' on here who have done a lot of reasearch into the possible problems you may face and ways to overcome them.

I have linked the two main threads below.

It seems that the UK (where Im from) may be behind the US and other countries in developing access to teh sport for paraplegic individuals however there is no reason you cannot be the first....

My personal advice *I am not an instructor and these are just my personal thoughts* would be to maybe find a good progressive Dropzone that is not too far from you, and do a bunch of tandems there.

or do a couple at least to see if you really want to take up the sport.

You would need to speak to the CCI (chief instructor) at the DZ you approached and see what, if anything they could do for you.

It would take experienced AFF instructors and a lot of commitment on your part, but it has been done by others abroad so it IS possible...


It comes down to how much you want it and also who will be prepared to put their neck on the line to offer it to you.
What area are you from?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1238368;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3348407;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

[humanflite 0]

To add/

once you have read all the threads and the full manual linked the post above mine. You will see that the technique has been to use a large strap to pull the persons legs up on landing, to prevent them getting damaged by being caught under the person.

however you would not have anywhere near as much leeway as a student who had the use of their legs in biffing in early landings, as landing on your butt demands some element of control in order that it doesnt hurt!!

How much do you weigh if you dont mind me asking?

[peter_d 0]

Thanks for the links there guys, they were helpful. Reading them made me realise that I'm rushing into this a little fast and I need to get some tandem jumps done first to make sure that I enjoy the experience.

Looking at the way some of the guys have been landing does make me optmistic about the whole thing though.

I weigh 12 stone and I live in Liverpool, I'm going to start looking for airfields tomorrow but I have been told by a friend who also has a spinal cord injury that he has done some tandem jumps in Langar so I'll start looking there.

I'm going to keep on researching this but like I said I am feeling optimistic about the whole thing.

[wmw999 2,439]

Try sending a PM ("Messages" on the side here) to Ripple. She's a UK woman with some degree of paralysis who's done some tandems in the UK as well.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[humanflite 0]

Quote

Thanks for the links there guys, they were helpful. Reading them made me realise that I'm rushing into this a little fast and I need to get some tandem jumps done first to make sure that I enjoy the experience.

Looking at the way some of the guys have been landing does make me optmistic about the whole thing though.

I weigh 12 stone and I live in Liverpool, I'm going to start looking for airfields tomorrow but I have been told by a friend who also has a spinal cord injury that he has done some tandem jumps in Langar so I'll start looking there.

I'm going to keep on researching this but like I said I am feeling optimistic about the whole thing.

Yes, Langar will certainly do you a tandem Im sure.
I have heard they have done quadraplegic tandems before and also a 94 year old lady!! so you should be no problemo.

As for the AFF, like you say, baby steps, do lots of research, and see where that takes you.

[humanflite 0]

Also, a great source of information would be if you sent a PM to the user gimpboogie

Here is her profile

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?username=gimpboogie;

She has overcome lots of hurdles and would be able to give you lots of tips

[gimpboogie 0]

Quote

DITTO TO EVERYTHING SAID ABOVE.

THEN PLS CONTACT LONNIE, [HERE ON FORUMS-HE'S DEFINITELY THE MOST EXPERIENCED in all of us para's in landing-& yet a dufferebt landing style then the rest of us-NOTE WE ALL GOT SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT LANDING STYLES].

OK, got the support of DZ CRITICAL.

AFF instructor EXPERIENCED in TANDEMS WITH DISABLED ia almost i would say a must-unless they allready did teach a para to dive- i.e. FuzzyDave [on the forums], he taught me along with Angus-n maybe this was his 1st [BEER DAVE! ] PARA-TEACHING learning experience.

YES ITS GING TO TAKE

1) RESERACH-TALK TO THESE PEOPLE-WATCH THE VIDEOS OF PARA'S DOING BASE, -THEY ARE OUT THERE WATCH SOME ON BRIDGE DAY AND LOOK FOR RUSSEL-another prara-THESE GUYS CAN TELL YOU MORE ABOUT LANDINGS THEN ANYONE ELSE.

2) WATCH the few videos there are out there of these base [sorry- i KNOW THIS IS NOT a base forum- this is NOT INVITATION to go do it, OR even encouragement-opposite- do NOT GO DO BASE NOW!].
bit i speak of these fellows for they know-best!].

WATCH the videos i got up on youtube extremewheelchairs is the nickname there.
lots from the 1st tandem to the 12th tandem progression, wind tnnel testing, building of the FFreeFly pants, the knee braces, [both of which still need modifications-are not set the way i need-want them to be].

WATCH the videos of the other paras doing tandems, talk to them on these forums-scan through this forum n look for those doing there 1st tandem as paras n talk to them-what went wellm what went badly-i.e WATCH THE VIEEO OF THE TANDEM WITH A PARA WHERE THEY PARA'S LEG STRAPS GET STUCK N DOOR OF PLANE n NO ONE HAS A HOOK KNIFE to hand to the TM.its freaken scary-BUT if you PLAN FOR IT ALL,
and your instructor plans for it all [we got a knife taped to the side of the doorway now, AND i jump alone with a knife-if my leg is bleeding profusely on a bad landing or a water landing i want to cut off my eg panel/crotch panel on my pants-you will know what we mean when you talk to Peter in SA, HE IS ANOTHER PIONEER in this sport of para's skydiving alone.

me, n dale, n you eentually perhaps will be the few who were never skydivers [oops sorry dale did a few dives] before paralysis.
lonnie and some others parhaps [lonnie is so respected in all worlds of diving that his advice on any skydiving aspect for apara is needed-ofcourse i doudt he does a lot of high altitue FF jumps -not his style but otherwise ALL aspects of canopy control n landings HE IS THE EXPERT as a para diver].


SO WATCH, TALK, N GET THE DZ INSTRUCTOR WHO AGREES TO GO THE DISTANCE WITH YOU WATCH THIS ALL ALSO-SOME HE MAY HAVE I.E. SOME BRIDGE DAY JUMPS OR OTHER PARAS EITHER DONE THEM IN TANDEMS OR WATCHED IT-

THEN PREPARE!

I mean PREPARE!

its said

PLAN THE JUMP
N
JUMP THE PLAN.

if it isnt going like planned
STOP.
DO NOT JUMP OUT or move forward.
I MEAN IT.

this is not a stroll in the park,
this isnt 'murder ball' -rugby in wheelchairs,
this isnt fencing,
this is life n death split second decisions,
n abilities to make them...

no meaning to discourage you
I ENCOURAGE TO REAEARCH AND DECIDE WITH INFORMATIVE MIND AS TO WHAT YOU WILL DO NEXT

N IF DIVING IS GOING TO BE IT!

WELCOME TO THE BLUE SKIES!!!!


ok got to go, will talk more later when can.

thanks for writing,
keep on sharing with us the progress,
snags along the way.

ooh and also maybe find TK in FL
for your AFF instructor to talk to along with Angus at Parachute school of toronto [google it-it will show uo] :)
n FuzzyDAVE.

AND TRY TO GET A SUPER EDXPERIENCED ACCURACRY CHAMPION-NATIONAL LEVELOR BETTER- to teach you a course on canopy control before your 1ST AFF.

kusit will help SO MUCH.

n try to get in a tunnel, IF AT ALL [OSSIBLE
set up your instructors-get the pANts/gear you think is ok for you-with instrutors help,
do a harness hanging rest to make sure your ok with FJC mmaterial EMERGENCY PROCEDURES [ kus if your not-the tunnel wont ,atter-it matters not if you can FF like a bat out of hell if you mind lock as altitude eats up on you n you forget Emergency procedures].

do ALL THAT 1ST THEN GO TO TUNNEL

NOW, being the 1st in UK, to try this para diving alone,
yiu MIGHT GET A SPONSOR of SOME SORT-EITHER SPORT ORG. TO DISABILITIES or some help from tunnel-perhaps a team training rate-15% OFF would be a great help but remember to ALWAYS INCLUDE YOUR HELPERS IN YIOUR BEER RULES

n NOT US INTERNET HELPERS-we do this without the beer-they would break in transport-but i'd like it if you give the beer rules serious thoght at yoru DZ, with ALL WHO HELP in person.

it keeps the spirit of hel[ing, going and people really appreciate it!!!!!!!

check out'beer rules' in search here.

like i said, i gonna shut up now n go on with the day.

cya
-gimpboogie

To become active member in the Bonus Days Club you must very narrowly escape eternal freefall ... one exciting time.)-Pat Works

[Distabled 0]

Hey Peter, I have done 4 jumps as a para and will have my A licence in the next month so if you want some up to date info email me dale@daleelliott.com or contact me on skype, username 'daleelliott'

TO JUMP SOLO AS A PARAPLEGIC
Three points, you will need 90 degree leg braces, a pair of custom made pants which have heaps of padding in the butt and a system to pull up and connect your legs to the chest strap for landing.

WITHOUT THESE 3 THINGS YOU WILL KILL YOURSELF! (eventually! lol)

It is of course, far more complicated then normal so i advise you do heaps of research, you will need to convince your AFF instructors to jump with you and to do this you need info.

Cheers

D

Get busy living or get busy dying!

[gimpboogie 0]

a little info on the leg braces.

please do not think 90 degrees is 'the formula'
it isnt.

for me, 90 degrees would have me backsliding so much there is no chance to do anything other then what i saw Dale doing in his last video-potato chipping the farther he went into affa,.
i can F for 20 secs or so without any troubles without leg braces for that matter, but with my legs stuck at 90 degrees i will 'die' without my instructor deploy fior me-well i wont die necessarily because the AAD will deploy for me just depends on what body position i may end up by then-fli[pping around like in a w3ashing machine in FF isnt that easy ior safe for the instructor to keep up to.
Angus can affa like anyone,
he's been in the 400way world record-its a tough thing to get invited to even try to fit in there.
he can be the point man, oor the last one to get in, it dont matter Angus can outfly anyone i know of in tracking-he has world record, over 10,000 jumps over 72 hrs FF time, jumping about 30 yrs now...
and HE wanst comfortable with the amount of issues...

so, i want to stress that DO NOT TAKE ADVICE FROM PEOPLE LIKE ME N DALE OR ANY OTHER PARALYZED DIVER BEFORE CHECKING IT OUT WITH PEOPLE LIKE ANGUS OR FUZZYDAVEA.
PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN THERE,A GOT THE EXPERIENCE!

im sorry it sounds harsh

but this is NOT A SPORT TO TASKE LIGHTLY,

yes i believe Dale can do it, do i believe every para can do it?
NO.
there IS a limit to everything.

WE ARE NOT THE EXPERTS.
(we being the 'students' here... its those instructors who are the experts- and one with a few thousand jumps is not one who can take on a project like this without putting you at risk...
all i know is that i wont trust my life in the hands of anyone other then someone like Angus, TK in the USA, and im not familiar with other countries...
so find the equivalent of such instructors in BARITAIN...
IF THEY CANT BE FOUND, EVEN MORE CARE IS TO BE TAKEN.

I THINK ITS SERIOUS FOR US-STUDENT DIVERS-TO GIVE ADVICE.

IM LEARNING THAT AS I GO,A
I DO NOT EVEN CALL MYSELF A SKYDIVER YET
DESPITE OVER 30 MIN. FF TIME
ND OVER 100 LANDINGS WITH AS PARACHUTE OVER ME [AONLYBROKE MY ANKLE ONCE-BUT NOT WITH AS SKYDIVING CANOPY OVER ME-TOO SHORT CANOPY RIDE-I DIDNT HAVE TIME TO FLARE PROPPERLY IT WAS ABOUT A 5 SEC CANOPY RIDE)

so aplease be carefula.

and please notice that the experienced para's are LONNIE AND RUSSELL....
IF IT ISNT FROM THEM, OR INSTRUCTORS WHO HAVE WORKED WITH PARA'S....

BE CAREFUL
ITS YOUR LIFE, NOT OURS.


I REFUSE TO GIVE 'ASDVICE' NOW THAT I KNOW IM THE IDI*T KID OF A IDI*T FATHER (DESPITE HOW MUCH SOME PRESIDENTS CLAIM THAT TITLE LOL)

ALL I NOW KNOW,
IS THAT I REALLY KNOW NOTHING.
ASLL I KNOW HOW TO DO IS FALL AND FIND MY WAY BASCK TO THE GROUND WITHOUT KILLING MYSELF
UNTIL THE DAY COMES THAT I MESSED THAT UP SALSO...
JUST HOPE IT ISNT DURING SKYDIVING.

To become active member in the Bonus Days Club you must very narrowly escape eternal freefall ... one exciting time.)-Pat Works

[humanflite 0]

Good advice there.

For ur info there are AFF instructors in the UK (not Baritain but Britain ) who have 7 -> 10,000 plus skydives.

One of them teaches at my DZ and is really at the top of his game.

Theses guys have some really amazing bodyflying skills and can catch pretty much any AFF student they have ever jumped with, and thats a lot.

BUT, a big but.... Im not sure if they would take on the challenge of teaching AFF to a paraplegic, mainly because they think safety first and I guess have no experience in this area...

The AFF instructors you find at your DZ would certainly need to think it over for a while and see what they could come up with.

As mentioned, I reckon get a few tandems under your belt, make your intentions known at the DZ... and see how it goes from there.

If that DZ will not offer a course, move to the next DZ!!!

But it really does depend on how much you want it I would say. You will need to be very persistent.

And I havent seen a reply in this thread from you for a while so ..... who knows

[gimpboogie 0]

hey, if your still on the hunt, chasing your dream give us an update... please.

it would be good to hear from you....
even if things haven't gone the way you had hoped/expected.
It's ALL a learning experience and we all learn from reading what's going on with others.

Did you find a tandem master?
did you do any tandems?
how about the DZ hunting, if not a tandem yet?

and if you did, but weren't able to jump, would you mind explaining what happened, why etc?

I think it's IMPORTANT info for others following in these flight paths.

this is a sport where all info is relevant.

(that's why the incident forums even)

Don't get me wrong, if things went sh*t for sideways and you didn't get to jump- I'm sorry to hear that... , but sharing with us why that was would be a real good lesson for others coming on the boards looking for similar info.

thanks for posting back...
if you do.

To become active member in the Bonus Days Club you must very narrowly escape eternal freefall ... one exciting time.)-Pat Works

[peter_d 0]

Sorry that I've been absent from here for a while, that was rude of me.

Here's how things have progressed so far...

Early on in March I booked myself in for a tandem jump at Langar airfield, I went down all hyped up only for it to get cancelled because of heavy winds. I was really eager to do it so I booked in two weeks later only for it to get cancelled again because of the weather. After two cancellations I decided to leave it for a while so I could concentrate on finishing my degree.

Fast forward to last Wednesday and I finally got to the jump. It was everything I thought it would be and more!! I got such a massive adrenaline rush on the FF and it is something that I could definitely get used to. Check it out at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTxATnZTScA

I spoke to an experienced instructor there who said that he would be willing to teach me the AFF if I can research a safe way to do it.

So I plan to start putting together some ideas on paper now so I can show him. Although I still really want to do this I'm not sure when i'll find the time but I really think it can be done, and I want it so much.

[Andy9o8 2]

There's an Australian paraplegic jumper who goes by the screen name Distabled on here. He's posted some very interesting (and inspirational!) threads about his own recent training. Give them a read!

[humanflite 0]

Quote

Sorry that I've been absent from here for a while, that was rude of me.

Here's how things have progressed so far...

Early on in March I booked myself in for a tandem jump at Langar airfield, I went down all hyped up only for it to get cancelled because of heavy winds. I was really eager to do it so I booked in two weeks later only for it to get cancelled again because of the weather. After two cancellations I decided to leave it for a while so I could concentrate on finishing my degree.

Fast forward to last Wednesday and I finally got to the jump. It was everything I thought it would be and more!! I got such a massive adrenaline rush on the FF and it is something that I could definitely get used to. Check it out at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTxATnZTScA

I spoke to an experienced instructor there who said that he would be willing to teach me the AFF if I can research a safe way to do it.

So I plan to start putting together some ideas on paper now so I can show him. Although I still really want to do this I'm not sure when i'll find the time but I really think it can be done, and I want it so much.

Well done on doing your first skydive
It seems like you enjoyed it....!

Thats also great news that an AFF instructor at the DZ will take you on.

As above, read this

http://www.jagworksdesign.com/html/Para%20skydive%20manual.htm

You could print out the zip file contents and send it to the AFFi, or go and visit him and discuss it.

Get some email contacts of people on here that are listed above... get in touch with them

It all depends how much you want it, but it can be done.. time is a thing that is short for all of us!!!

pm username distabled

on here (Dale Elliott). Im sure he will offer you some advice

[KathleenL 0]

Glad to see you on this thread Dale. I was about to refer to your website.

[gimpboogie 0]

Quote

Sorry that I've been absent from here for a while, that was rude of me.

Here's how things have progressed so far...

Early on in March I booked myself in for a tandem jump at Langar airfield, I went down all hyped up only for it to get cancelled because of heavy winds. I was really eager to do it so I booked in two weeks later only for it to get cancelled again because of the weather. After two cancellations I decided to leave it for a while so I could concentrate on finishing my degree.

Fast forward to last Wednesday and I finally got to the jump. It was everything I thought it would be and more!! I got such a massive adrenaline rush on the FF and it is something that I could definitely get used to. Check it out at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTxATnZTScA

I spoke to an experienced instructor there who said that he would be willing to teach me the AFF if I can research a safe way to do it.

So I plan to start putting together some ideas on paper now so I can show him. Although I still really want to do this I'm not sure when i'll find the time but I really think it can be done, and I want it so much.

any new developments?
have you made some progress on putting the plan together on paper as you mentioned?

I notice its been about 5 plus months since our recent update from you...

let us know what your up to, or if youve decided skydiving is not for you, or???

your a part of our world, so its important we check up on each other once in a while to see how things are,

have you checked out Dale's threads, or mine?
and now we have Pookie going for his 1st solo this Saturday coming....

keep us updated if you can :)

To become active member in the Bonus Days Club you must very narrowly escape eternal freefall ... one exciting time.)-Pat Works

[pookieland 0]

Hey there,
I am Pookie and I will be doing my 1st Solo FreeFall in 5 days. I have some pic's of a dry run that we did this past saturday. I am a C-6 C-7 and everyone is different you will find your way, you just have to have an instructor that is willing to take that chance with you. I have a great instructor and we have been working at this for the past 2 1/2 years and now i only have 5 days until my jump. Send me your email and I wil send you some pic's of my set up. You may have some more questions after you see them but feel fre to ask me anything you would like.. LATER....

Stop Touching Me!!!

Muff Brother# 4466

[peter_d 0]

So here is the current situation...

I am still really interested in learning to solo skydive but right now is not the right time for me to do it, I have travel plans that are going to keep me busy for the first 6 months of the year.

I'll keep thinking about it as its something that I really want to do. I had a go in a wind tunnel back in November which was good fun and practice. When I have the time I'll be going back to a wind tunnel to try and learn how to move through the air on my own and hopefully this will show prospective instructors that this is something that I really want to do and I'm not just wasting their time!

I'll be back on when there is something more to report but that could be a while.

[pookieland 0]

are you in a chair? have you done any Tandem Jumps? The big thing is to have someone in your corner willing to go the distance with you on your project and what your trying to do. And remember nothing is garrented,you only get out what you put in and even then it may not work so keep trying and trying and you never know. It took me 3 years and poeple willing to go the distance. Good Luck Man and there are no stupied questions remember that

Stop Touching Me!!!

Muff Brother# 4466

[Distabled 0]

Landing is where all the risk is. Freefall is not going to be where you hurt yourself. Landings need to be excellent everytime or you will break something and do skin damage that will put you out of action for a long time. It will also make it difficult for other paras who want to get into jumping. If there are any horror stories that start to circulate because paras hook it in and explode on landing it will be very difficult to find instructors and DZs that will allow us to jump.

I know that able bods hurt themselves all the time by landing too fast while swooping, we however have a 'Well they shouldnt be jumping anyway!' stigma to contend with if we stuff up. We need to land better and safer if we are to develop a wider skydive community of paraplegics.

The only way to practice landing approaches and flaring the canopy is to do lots of tandem jumps. Pookie did, Minna did, Peter and I had previous jump experience as able bods. So far, we are doing ok.

Freefall is not that difficult, I did a jump yesterday from 10000 feet and had a 35 sec freefall. I went off the door, rolled onto my back and gave a mate who was looking out the plane the bird, I then flipped around and did some spins left and right, tracked for a 2000 ft then deployed stable at 3000ft, did canopy checks and then hooked up my legs for landing, spiraled down and landed within 10m of cross out the front of the clubrooms. A m8 scooted my chair out to me, I jumped in and went inside. I gear up totally by myself, get in the plane by myself and fall by myself. You need to have a system where you are as independent as possible or people at the DZ start giving you shit when you hold up a load. It happens as the novelty wears off.

I don't care about this pressure, I have chosen to participate in this sport so adapting is a big part of it. Why should other jumpers have their time wasted because of me?

The system that I use to conduct my jumps is very good. It is simple and uncomplicated, it is cheap to get set up, and I don't need any mods to standard rigs. I could go to any DZ and jump their student gear (cos i want at least a 210 canopy) without any decrease in safety. This is what i think para skydivers should aim to achieve when jumping. The further you get away from tried and tested equipment and procedures the closer you get to being a test pilot. The risk at this end of the scale is much higher. We can not afford increased risk while trialing new ways to skydive. Try and do it as close as possible to the current way that thousands of skydivers jump around the world. This is where you can utilize the safety systems of current gear to the maximum, and also deviate as little as possible from approved training syllabus.

This is just my opinion. After 18 years in the aviation industry as a commercial pilot, jump pilot and aircraft engineer I have seen many times where people have gone away from 'the norm' in order to be unique or different, which most of the time results in a fu#k up.

The best you can do is get out to a DZ every day you can and start learning 'the how and why' with everything you can. You need to develop aviation maturity to a higher level then a regular skydive student. You can only do this by getting your head into the game.

Attitude + altitude = a safe jump. (in my opinion)

Rock on!

D

Get busy living or get busy dying!

[gimpboogie 0]

As Dale says

"Landings need to be excellent everytime or you will break something and do skin damage that will put you out of action for a long time. It will also make it difficult for other paras who want to get into jumping. If there are any horror stories that start to circulate because paras hook it in and explode on landing it will be very difficult to find instructors and DZs that will allow us to jump.
"

THIS IS CRITICAL

none of us (paralyzed)HAS THE RIGHT to take chances on landings,'because we will fck it up for every ontehr 1 coming after us

To become active member in the Bonus Days Club you must very narrowly escape eternal freefall ... one exciting time.)-Pat Works