It is Time for This Nonsense to Stop!

[quade 4]

  Quote

Seems like the majority opinion of law experts and scholars is that this ruling will be overturned fairly quickly.

Ya know, being the majority doesn't always make you right.

I believe the majority of folks in the south wanted slavery to continue. Did that make it right? I don't think so.

A society isn't judged on how it treats the majority of the people, it's judged by how it treats the minority.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,031]

>I still fail to see where anything has been said that is unpatriotic.

It is not; it is just _seen_ as unpatriotic. You said it yourself - "I heard people on the radio today referring to the people who passed this as 'communistic' ." This is the popular opinion. What politician wants to be seen as a communist?

Don't forget - in this country, it is the popular, not the correct, politicians who are re-elected.

>I have not heard anyone say that the pledge of allegiance could not
> be said in school with the omittance of "under god".

Of course it could; but many people grew up with the "under god" thing and they like it. It's no more deep, or philosophical, than that.

[hobbes4star 0]

were are the boobies???

if fun were easy it wouldn't be worth having, right?

[flyhi 24]

Religion is the essential myth of mankind.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[scottbre 0]

  Quote

Ya know, being the majority doesn't always make you right.

I believe the majority of folks in the south wanted slavery to continue. Did that make it right? I don't think so.

*sigh* I wasn't saying it was right or wrong. I was just making an observation based on what I have heard through the various news channels yesterday.


Some people seem to be glued to the soapbox they are standing on...

[Sebazz1 2]

If I believe in Karma does that mean I am religious?

Like the other day, someone owed beer. They said they would wait for the following weekend. I said dude you'll surely have a mal or go in if you do not buy beer now. It is true after all The all powerfull trio of gods are as follows: karma god; beer god; sky god. Need anything else be said?

Our country should put on our currency "In Blue Skies We Trust" And we should all sing as we rise in the morning "One Casa full of jumpers, indivisable, under blue skies........" Get the drift

I am not right today or any day sorry sorry sorry.

[SBS 0]

Bill,

my wording was a little off in my first response which you addressed. I meant that I did understand that it was seen as unpatriotic, just that I do not believe that it is, which is what you addressed.

--------
many people grew up with the "under god" thing and they like it. It's no more deep, or philosophical, than that.
--------

I do agree that there are some people for whom this stands true. There are others, though, who I think take this as a serious attack, as if it is sacreligious (sp?).

The olympic rings are 5 colors, as far as I know, because of the fact that those 5 colors appear in every flag of the world, and they symbolize unity. If there is a country somewhere that has a purple flag, is it right that they should be left out because they are not the majority?

The pledge is a symbol of unity and patriotism...how can we be patriotic and stand together as a nation when one of its very symbols does not take everyone into account? THAT, I believe, is unpatriotic.

-S

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[nws01 0]

I Pledge Alligience
To this Sport
and to the United States Parachute Association
And to Sangiro
For whom we post
One Casa,
full of jumpers,
indivisable,
under blue skies,
And Safe Swoops for all..

[Sebazz1 2]

Word

• Quote

[kallend 2,067]

The "under God" phrase was added during the McCarthyite hysteria of the 1950s. It adds absolutely nothing to the expression of patriotism in the rest of the pledge. The obvious solution is to remove those two words and restore it to its historic form.

"In God We Trust" on money has been ruled legal by The Supremes, on the grounds that it is a meaningless expression. The only way they can rule the pledge in its current form to be legal is with the same device, to say that "under God" is meaningless. Is that what the religious right wants?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Sinkster 0]

Ignorance itself is without a doubt a sin for those who do not wish to understand; for those who, however, cannot understand, it is the punishment of sin.

• Quote

[billvon 3,031]

>The pledge is a symbol of unity and patriotism...how can we be
>patriotic and stand together as a nation when one of its very symbols
> does not take everyone into account? THAT, I believe, is unpatriotic.

You can't take everyone into account. The only all-inclusive set is the null set. Heck, you'll annoy some southerners by calling the US "indivisible", you'll annoy Mr. Padilla by claiming "justice for all" - but "justice for most" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

This whole pledge thing is a real tempest in a teapot. Is using god in the pledge of allegiance legally defensible? No. Is it really worth changing the pledge for? I don't think so. It would be hard, for example, to object to a high school student who is required to memorize parts of the constitution even though they mention slavery and god. It is, after all, part of our history.

Want to say the pledge with god in it? I think you should be able to. Want to say it without those two words in it? That's fine too. Want to leave out the indivisible part? Go right ahead. Seems like, to me, that solves the problem without spending months arguing about it.

[SBS 0]

You can't take everyone into account.

---------------

In the case of religious reference, you can...you can omit it. If you could put reference to all 2500 gods and atheism, that's great, but if you cannot, there should not be reference to one or some.

-------------

It would be hard, for example, to object to a high school student who is required to memorize parts of the constitution even though they mention slavery and god. It is, after all, part of our history.

-----------------

There is a difference between teaching the history of a document and requiring a child to say that his or her country is "under god". We teach about Hitler and Stalin without imposing their ideals upon students. I am not saying that religion is evil, like Hitler and Stalin, just that something can be taught without being imposed.

-S

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[quade 4]

  Quote

It would be hard, for example, to object to a high school student who is required to memorize parts of the constitution even though they mention slavery and god. It is, after all, part of our history.

One assumes if the student memorises (or even just reads) the Consitution, that eventually he'll get to the Amendments as well. Specifically, the 1st and 13th.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,031]

>In the case of religious reference, you can...you can omit it. If you
> could put reference to all 2500 gods and atheism, that's great, but
> if you cannot, there should not be reference to one or some.

I agree - allow them to omit it if they choose.

>There is a difference between teaching the history of a document
> and requiring a child to say that his or her country is "under god".

So don't require it. Let them omit it if they want. Our constitution, national anthem, pledge of allegiance, popular national songs (america the beautiful) all contain references to god. Each person can omit or include what they choose when such are sung/spoken. I think that's a better choice than revision.

[dreamsville 0]

You're quite serious?

Harry

I don't drink during the day, so I don't know what it is about this airline. I keep falling out the door of the plane.

Harry, FB #4143

[quade 4]

Interesting history of the "Pledge" here.

http://www.vineyard.net/vineyard/history/pledge.htm

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SBS 0]

So don't require it. Let them omit it if they want. Our constitution, national anthem, pledge of allegiance, popular national songs (america the beautiful) all contain references to god. Each person can omit or include what they choose when such are sung/spoken. I think that's a better choice than revision.

-----------

I agree with this, but in reverse...I think it should be omitted, and anyone who wants to include it may.

This is something that is handed down from our government...by omitting it, they are saying, "we can't acknowledge every religion, so we will not impose upon you one or the other". By including it and allowing people to not say it if they choose not to, the message is, "we have a national standard, and you can choose not to be a part of it if you want". To me, it doesn't make a difference either way, to others, though, they may find it offensive, and that is their right. Where I think it is a big issue is when kids who may be put in an uncomfortable position with their piers.

The purpose of the pledge is unity for country, not to say, "I'm an Athiest", or, "I'm a Christian", or, "I'm a Hindu", etc. There is just no need in this context.

What child is going to come home and ask his/her parents, "why isn't there reference to god in our pledge that we say symbolizing patriotism?", but you will have some kids that come home and say, "why does our pledge say "under god"?" I won't elaborate and speculate on the rest of the conversation, but I don't believe that it should be had on account of our government.

-S

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[PhillyKev 0]

Personally, I feel very patriotic and love my country. But don't believe in god. So by reciting a pledge of allegiance with a reference to god, it is a lie coming out of my mouth, and therefore invalid. Why should I be forced to lie?

I guess, the real crux of the pledge is..."I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands." Anything after that is fluff.

Basically, it would be unpatriotic of me to recite the pledge with the reference to god. It invalidates it.

[billvon 3,031]

>I agree with this, but in reverse...I think it should be omitted, and
> anyone who wants to include it may.

It's too late to omit it, it's in there. If you want to print new versions of the pledge, then I think you should be allowed to omit it if you so choose.

> but you will have some kids that come home and say, "why does
>our pledge say "under god"?"

Of course. They may ask the same about the constitution, declaration of independence, heck, even speeches by George W. Bush. One answer would be to make sure that there are no references to god, ever, by any member of the US government, or in any printed material from there. Another option would be to answer the child's question. The second answer is easier, I think.

[billvon 3,031]

>Personally, I feel very patriotic and love my country. But don't
> believe in god. So by reciting a pledge of allegiance with a reference
> to god, it is a lie coming out of my mouth, and therefore invalid.
> Why should I be forced to lie?

You should not be. Next time someone next to you starts saying the pledge, don't say "under god." That way you are not saying something you don't want to.

[SBS 0]

Another option would be to answer the child's question. The
second answer is easier, I think.

--------------

I agree...but then again, I am not offended by the words, and will openly discuss things with my children, should I have them in the future. I think it is sad when parents can't have open discussions with their children...at the same time, though, it is their right to discuss what they wish with their offspring, without the interference of the government in most cases, especially religion.

A big difference, as well, is the age difference of the child. There is a huge difference between the reasoning ability of a 14 year old learning about American Government and a Kindergartener learning to memorize the pledge. Personally, if the question were going to come up, I would prefer that it be posed later in life...that is the time when you can have more of a logical discussion, and if the family is religious, the child has more than likely been introduced to its beliefs and has created a foundation.

-S

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[Scoby 0]

  Quote

Next time some f*cked up kid brings a gun to school and starts shooting everybody up, let's make sure no one openly prays to God for help, it might offend a "non-believer"....

I wonder how many "non-believers" in the twin towers suddenly found God when they knew death was moments away......

I wonder who a "non-believer" prays to when their child has been kidnapped or is laying in I.C.U......

I know there is one God and I can't wait to go home and be with him.

I'm still gonna pull though.....


I've always found this kind of attitude a bit strange. If praying to god would make him intervene on your behalf, how come he doesn't seem to do it very often? A few days ago, a church group bus slammed into a pole, killing a number of people. One of the survivors said, "I knew god was with me and helped me survive." I can't help but think, "And he wasn't with the girl sitting behind you who didn't?" A non-believer doesn't pray to anything when they are in a bind, because that would be irrational, given the fact that they are non-believers. It's perfectly fine having your own beliefs, but the smug attitude that some people have that atheists somehow convert when they are facing their doom is ridiculous.

• Quote

[SBS 0]

A non-believer doesn't pray to anything when they are in a bind, because that would be irrational, given the fact that they are non-believers. It's perfectly fine having your own beliefs, but the smug attitude that some people have that atheists somehow convert when they are facing their doom is ridiculous.

--------------------

I agree with you...the difference lies in Athiest vs. Agnostic.

Many people confuse the idea of an Atheist, who believes that there is no god, with the idea of an Agnostic, who does not know if there is a god or not.

The people who tend to start praying are not necessarily true Athiests. That is not to say that some of them do not convert on their death beds, but it is as likely and as common for a true blooded Athiest to pray to god on his/her death bed as it is for a Christian to start talking to Buddha, or a Buddhist to start praying to God, "just in case".

An Agnostic who prays is not changing or going against his/her faith...an Athiest is.

-S

_____________
I'm not conceited...I'm just realistic about my awesomeness...

[rgoper 0]

....remember what i said about opinions in today's society. everyone is entitled to their own opinion, without recieving any grief for it, no matter what it is, from anyone. all we're doing here is going around in circles about who believes what, and why and/or why not. it doesn't make any sense. i will say that in my opinion, there are going to be quite a few enlightned folks when the "final day" does come. you can believe whatever you want, but KNOW this: "there is an up, and there is a down" and DOWN ain't so nice. believe what you want, that much is factual. i know this much from my experience from drilling oil and gas wells, the deeper you drill, the hotter the bottom hole tempertuature is, now that's a scientific fact. funny corelation, coincidence? who knows, i don't believe anyone can say for sure, but is is a strange coincidence at least.

i'm happy, as i said before, that i can let someone else believe what they want, as long as i'm afforded the same luxery, what do i care? you CANNOT make a believer out of a NON BELIEVER. it's an exercize in futuilty, believe me, i've had extended conversations with geologists of which out of maybe 100, i've met one who does not think the world "just happened" the "big bang" theory is fairly popular, but if you read the bible, and corelate it to present day occurences, it's pretty sobering. how did god create the world in 6 days, and take one to rest? how long was a day back then? think about it. peace to all.

--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"