GWB speech last night

[Steel 0]

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>However it never happpened and for that matter it never even started to happen.

Do a google search on "the bay of pigs."
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I really don't need to search for the bay of pigs I know exactly what happened. And the fact remains that not one shot was fired. Many people were frightened at the possiblity but there is a very big difference between having a gun pulled on you or having you buddy shot dead at your side. That is the simple difference between the cold war and what happened in 9/11.
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>Whereas with the Soviet Union if we could take Moscow everything else would be easier after that.

Do a google search on "McCarthyism." Communists were everywhere, infiltrating our country, destroying our way of life. It was us or them. Replace "communist" with "terrorist" and you could turn any McCarthy speech into a Rumsfeld speech. They have become our Great Satan.

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I know all about Soviet spies I have even been the one to quote it to you before. But the fact is Moscow was the official capitol of the Soviet Union. And if somehow Moscow as taken out it would have disrupted operations noticeably more than killing Osama Bin Laden would to Al Queda.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[kiltboy 0]

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Quite the contrary it is extremely founded. By the way incase you don't seem to understand the difference between fighting for a cause and terrorism. The key is suicide mission.

Sorry but the comment you make here is absolute bollocks. Terrorism is the use of fear towards a political end. Suicide missions do not differentiate between terrorism and fighting for a cause.
Plenty of people died in uniform during World War 2 that did not make them terrorists.

David

[livendive 8]

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I did not know about a 'Prescott Bush'. Would that have been the grandfather? When did he serve? Maybe he had some pull to get G into school at that time. If so, then both of them were super silver spoon babies.

He was elected as a senator in 1952, following the mid-term death of senator Brien McMahon. He was reelected in 1956 and retired after that term ended in 1963.

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If he was the grandfather, I don't care about his politics if you want to apply them to the current GWB. Would you consider it fair to be judged based on someone 2 generations removed from you? Although I believe that is a straw both sides grasp at.

While I mostly agree with you, I think the issue is a bit more complicated in this instance. He was a rich-boy version of John Walker Lindh during WWII, and I consider that to infer somewhat of a "midas touch". Note I am not accusing Dubya of being a nazi, but rather have issue with such a line being allowed to propogate itself to the highest seat in our nation...twice. Bush I and Bush II didn't win that seat because they were the best possible candidates in all the land, they got there in large part because of their "roots."

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[321seeya 0]

During Bush's speech, I was in a caravan 13,500 feet above the surface of the earth about to take part in a night time Mr. Bill jump.
We exited the plane, and there we were...Floating over the multicolored city that our airport services. The only thing that mattered at that moment was..."WOW...We did it!" As Matt climbed on my shoulders, and I piloted my canopy about the night time sky, we did not discuss politics, religion, money, or even the fact that we are from different nations, one of which has been in a civil war for hundereds of years....What we did talk about was the FACT that we...in the the words of Charles Lindburgh..were "Gods of the sky for those immortal moments"
Am I politically educated..Yes
Am I am registered voter...Yes
Does posting in a forum about how dumb someone looked on TV benefit me in any way...NO
But I will post a few more stories about the great times I have had seeking a "Higher Education" in Skydiving.

DJ

BASE 3:16 - Even if you are about to land on a cop - DONT FORGET TO FLARE!
Free the soul -- DJ

[Steel 0]

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Quite the contrary it is extremely founded. By the way incase you don't seem to understand the difference between fighting for a cause and terrorism. The key is suicide mission.

Sorry but the comment you make here is absolute bollocks. Terrorism is the use of fear towards a political end. Suicide missions do not differentiate between terrorism and fighting for a cause.
Plenty of people died in uniform during World War 2 that did not make them terrorists.

David

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No, taking a risk and suicide are two different things. Except for the Japanese I don't know of any goups involved in that war that were willing to strap a bombs to themselves knowing that they would have a 0% chance of surviving, but did so soley to push their side ahead.
I do know that the IRA has often been referred to as terrorists because they terrorize the British with suprise attacks on politicians and such. I don't support the IRA but obviously they are not as bad as the PLO's, who will stop at nothing to get what they want.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[jfields 0]

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I do know that the IRA has often been referred to as terrorists because they terrorize the British with suprise attacks on politicians and such. I don't support the IRA but obviously they are not as bad as the PLO's, who will stop at nothing to get what they want.

Obviously?

What is obvious about it? So you are saying there are bad terrorists that kill innocent people and not-so-bad terrorists that kill innocent people? What are you claiming is the difference?

[Steel 0]

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I do know that the IRA has often been referred to as terrorists because they terrorize the British with suprise attacks on politicians and such. I don't support the IRA but obviously they are not as bad as the PLO's, who will stop at nothing to get what they want.

Obviously?

What is obvious about it? So you are saying there are bad terrorists that kill innocent people and not-so-bad terrorists that kill innocent people? What are you claiming is the difference?

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The difference is simple if person A and person B are in disagreement. Both have guns but both are hiding behind a fort for fear of loosing there lives. Now assume person B suddenly does not care if he dies and just runs out and shoot person A knowing he will die on the spot by being shot back. That is the difference. That is the reason the Soviet Union fell without nuclear bombs being fired. Becuause although the Soviets had a stupid system they did not want the world to come to an end. By the same token that is the reason if Ossama Bin Laden got nuclear weapons, then that is the reason the world would come to an end. But the reality is that Ossama Bin Laden has either open or secretive support in every country dominated by the Muslim faith. Even the Prince of Saudi Arabia was recently proven to have known in advance of Al Quedas plans to attack the world trade center.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[kiltboy 0]

It's lunchtime so I'm going to get involved in this for a while.

There are plenty of examples in WW2 where high casualies were expected. The difference is that in many cases the people undertaking the missions always assumed that it was their friend that wasn't coming back. There are also many examples of personal sacrifice that should not, in my opinion, be belittled. Most were spur of the moment but many were suicidal in nature.

As for the terrorism thing. Politicians aren't necessarily the target. It's easier to intimidate the population by subjecting them to acts of terrorism and intimidation and cause political change that way than it is to target politicians individualy.
Also targetting lawyers, police and breaking the rule of goverment that way is also easier.

As for suicide bombings they assist in planning of the actual event as no escape route needs to be worked out. The events of 9/11 could not have happened had the terrorists wanted to live afterwards. That can lead to more extreme acts of terrorism but a nail bomb is a nail bomb be it strapped to a bus passenger or left in Hyde Park.

David

[ikke 0]

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I do know that the IRA has often been referred to as terrorists

...because that's what they are/were.

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because they terrorize the British with suprise attacks on politicians and such.

true, if you include civilians in that "and such". The IRA and its various splinter groups have killed hundreds of "non-combatants" as they call it...people no different from those who died on 11 September or in various cafes, buses and discos in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem.

[jfields 0]

Go back to what I said and explain why the IRA are "nicer or better" terrorists than the PLO. You brought up the comparison. Now please carry forward and expound on your reasoning.

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Now assume person B suddenly does not care if he dies and just runs out and shoot person A knowing he will die on the spot by being shot back. That is the difference.

Using your definitions, how about some of these examples:

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm

A fair number of them went and did things they knew would get them killed. But they did them anyway. Terrorists? Patriots? Heroes? The biggest difference between them and those you condemn are which side of the battle they are on. Being a suicide bomber takes more dedication than I'll ever have. I can admit that while still disliking what they do. To a lot of innocent people in other countries (Japan, Iraq, Vietnam, Germany, etc.) we are the people that came in and killed their family members, both military and civilian. To the person whose civilian family member dies in "collateral damage", aren't we the bad guy?

The world isn't the good vs. evil, black and white world you portray. We have done things in the world to make people justifiably angry enough to consider killing us. We don't have shining halos on our heads and invincible armor wovem from moral superiority.

[billvon 3,008]

>But the fact is that this Muslim faith should be made illegal. Don't
> get me wrong there are some good people who practice this faith.
> However Mosques are, always have been and always will be a
> breeding ground for terrorists.

Do a google search on "crusades." If anything catholicism should be made illegal, if stopping wars is your objective.

>So I guess your saying the U.S. is bad because we have used our
>power to root out killers who planneed to otherwise attack us.

Iraq wasn't planning to attack us; no one outside the pathologically paranoid believes that any more. There is currently far more terrorist activity in Iraq than there was before we invaded. So yes, the US is bad because we used our military power to increase the chance that terrorists will kill americans.

>I have yet to see the story of the church going Catholic boy who
> strapped explosives to him and went into a place where the infidels
> were with the intention to blow himself up soley for the purpose of
> pushing his religon ahead by killing people of a different faith.

Do a google search on "children's crusade." 30,000 good church going catholic boys went to Spain to kill Moslems a while back.

>I haven't heard that story with a nice yamaka wearing Jewish boy either.

Do a google search on "israel palestinian conflict."

>But the fact is that this Muslim faith should be made illegal.

You would not be the first to suggest wiping out a religion or a race; fortunately we no longer tolerate this sort of bigotry.

[Steel 0]

Do a google search on "children's crusade." 30,000 good church going catholic boys went to Spain to kill Moslems a while back.

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There you go again trying to go back 500 years ago when the world was a different place to compare it to the 20th and 21st century. In anycase even back then the Muslims were still the bad guys. They were the ones that went into Spain to try to conquer and convert the Catholics and it was a long fight of over 700 but my ancestors won and Spain did not fall to the Muslims.
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Iraq wasn't planning to attack us; no one outside the pathologically paranoid believes that any more. There is currently far more terrorist activity in Iraq than there was before we invaded. So yes, the US is bad because we used our military power to increase the chance that terrorists will kill americans.
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The only possible answer to this is that its just not true.
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>I haven't heard that story with a nice yamaka wearing Jewish boy either.

Do a google search on "israel palestinian conflict."
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How can I refer to this as anything other than simple spin. We all know the two groups are a war. But that was not was I said, was it? What I said was the Muslims engage in suicide missions and the Jews don't. That is an undeniable fact.
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>But the fact is that this Muslim faith should be made illegal.

You would not be the first to suggest wiping out a religion or a race; fortunately we no longer tolerate this sort of bigotry.

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Who here has mentioned race? I haven't. But the fact is that what religion one chooses is his choice. If a religion advocates killing its a bad thing. Its really that simple. Oh but right, I understand the Koran is against killing all the clerics will tell you. Oh they have found Mosques raising money for terrorist attacks. I guess to be a good liberal you should just imagine that this is not true so you can continue to take like a happy liberal.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Remster 30]

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They were the ones that went into Spain to try to conquer and convert the Catholics and it was a long fight of over 700 but my ancestors won and Spain did not fall to the Muslims.

LOL!!!!!

Good to see how important lineage is to ya....

You do realize that over that period, pretty much all spaniards after that were partly Maure?

Remster

[Steel 0]

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They were the ones that went into Spain to try to conquer and convert the Catholics and it was a long fight of over 700 but my ancestors won and Spain did not fall to the Muslims.

LOL!!!!!

Good to see how important lineage is to ya....

You do realize that over that period, pretty much all spaniards after that were partly Maure?

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If you mean that all Spaniards are partly Moorish all I can say to that is B.S. (Barbara Streissand). If you look closer at the history you will find what is known as Purity of blood, meaning a Spaniard that has traced his ancestry to prove that indeed he has no Muslim in his background. I know liberals would love to be able to link everybody else into one group specially when they can find some bogus reason to place themselves outside that group but that does not work here. There is to much history to prove otherwise.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[Remster 30]

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he has no Muslim in his background

Thats funny.. I though Muslin was a religion and not a race?

Remster

[jfields 0]

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If you look closer at the history you will find what is known as Purity of blood, meaning a Spaniard that has traced his ancestry to prove that indeed he has no Muslim in his background.

Whew! It is a good thing that isn't like KKK members "proving" there is no black in their genealogy. That would be racist.

[Steel 0]

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If you look closer at the history you will find what is known as Purity of blood, meaning a Spaniard that has traced his ancestry to prove that indeed he has no Muslim in his background.

Whew! It is a good thing that isn't like KKK members "proving" there is no black in their genealogy. That would be racist.

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I really don't care what the KKK does. But from what I do know about them, I know that they do not provide pleasant hospitality toward any foreigners even so much as visiting. Ask people who have been to Spain how the stay was there. You will find it difficult to find a more welcoming place in the world. However that does not mean that Spaniards are stupid liberals ready to hand over there country like the far left in the U.S. Anybody who has gone to Spain throughout history was welcomed with open arms. Anybody going over there trying to change the Spanish way of life was met with fierce resistance and sent right back where they came from. That is what happened with the Moors. Its plain a simple.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[kiltboy 0]

Did you ever get an answer to the good terrorist/ bad terrorist question?

David

[jfields 0]

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Did you ever get an answer to the good terrorist/ bad terrorist question?

Nope. Still waiting.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I really don't care what the KKK does. But from what I do know about them, I know that they do not provide pleasant hospitality toward any foreigners even so much as visiting. Ask people who have been to Spain how the stay was there. You will find it difficult to find a more welcoming place in the world. However that does not mean that Spaniards are stupid liberals ready to hand over there country like the far left in the U.S. Anybody who has gone to Spain throughout history was welcomed with open arms. Anybody going over there trying to change the Spanish way of life was met with fierce resistance and sent right back where they came from. That is what happened with the Moors. Its plain a simple.

You are dancing around the point Steel. You claimed that a complete religion should be banned. That makes you a bigot in todays world.

BTW, how do you prove there is no Muslim in your background? It isn't a race, as was pointed out earlier, so how do you prove that someone did not follow a religion?

Are you proud to be pure of blood? Are you proud that you think you can prove you have no Muslim in your background? Do you feel superior to Muslims?

Do you really think you can solve all these problems by banning a religion? How do you propose ot police that? Is the US Army invading every country with a Mosque? Or is the US going to stop trading with any country with a mosque? That should do wonders for your economy.

[PhillyKev 0]

Now this is a position that is ridiculous to argue. Vehement prejudice and bigotry can't be resolved through debate. General political views regarding foreign policy, etc. can be, which is why I participate in these discussions. But when confronted with a rabid anti-something, you're not going to change their mind.

Personally, I find your attitudes and prejudice far more threatening than the muslim world.

[Steel 0]

BTW, how do you prove there is no Muslim in your background? It isn't a race, as was pointed out earlier, so how do you prove that someone did not follow a religion?
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You have never heard of having your ancestry traced. Your grangfathers father, his mother and father, that same with all your grandparents and so on. Yes it is a Religion and not a race but at that particular time all the people there following that religion were of a different decendency (Moorish, Arabic).

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Are you proud to be pure of blood? Are you proud that you think you can prove you have no Muslim in your background? Do you feel superior to Muslims?
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Yes to all of the above. I am proud of who I am and feel sorry for anybody who is not proud of who he is. I am sure that if you trace my family tree as far back as is possible, you will not find any Arab names. I know that it is due to our actions and not coincidence that the only people who have issue with my ancestors are far left wing liberals who only goal is to seek out anything good in the world and lash out false statements against it.
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Do you really think you can solve all these problems by banning a religion?
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Yes, different forms of Christians disagree with each other but they don't kill each other because of it. They don't kill Jews and Jews don't kill them. Hell I have yet to see a Buddist or a Hindu committing acts of terrorism for their religion. I know right now like the typical liberal you will point to Hitler. But not only was that almost over 60 years ago but it was never fought in the name of a religion. It was against a religion but not for another. In any case it history and will never happen again.
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How do you propose ot police that?
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I don't propose to police it. But a good starting point is to stop denying it. If Devil worshipers became a problem because of Terrrorism then we would keep a closer eye on them. We would not fear being called bigots for profiling them. That is a start.
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Is the US Army invading every country with a Mosque? Or is the US going to stop trading with any country with a mosque? That should do wonders for your economy.

[Steel 0]

Personally, I find your attitudes and prejudice far more threatening than the muslim world.

[jfields 0]

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Yes, different forms of Christians disagree with each other but they don't kill each other because of it.

Tell that to the Irish.

[Steel 0]

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Did you ever get an answer to the good terrorist/ bad terrorist question?

Nope. Still waiting.

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If your question was about the differences between the IRA and the PLO's, then that was addressed. However, I never suggested that there was such a thing as a good terorist. There are however terrorists that are more dangerous to humanity in general than others.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.