12 Marines killed in Iraq

[Gawain 0]

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Gee Mikkey.. I would have thought you would know what you are talking about before making such an untrue statement.

Doesn't matter, we don't have a grasp on the "complex" issues.

Problem is, despite the "complexities", there are simple issues that perpetuate the "uprisings" by these clerics. These militants are not in a state of rage over the complex Iraqi history of the last 80 years and simple fall of Saddam. They are in a state of rage by plain and simple hatred incited by spiritual leaders that wish only for a 13th century lifestyle (I know there's more depth to it, but the cause is the same nonetheless) of oppressive spiritual rule.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Gee Mikkey.. I would have thought you would know what you are talking about before making such an untrue statement.

Doesn't matter, we don't have a grasp on the "complex" issues.

Problem is, despite the "complexities", there are simple issues that perpetuate the "uprisings" by these clerics. These militants are not in a state of rage over the complex Iraqi history of the last 80 years and simple fall of Saddam. They are in a state of rage by plain and simple hatred incited by spiritual leaders that wish only for a 13th century lifestyle (I know there's more depth to it, but the cause is the same nonetheless) of oppressive spiritual rule.

Yep, good thing we got ole Mikkey to 'splain it to us simple minded idiots.

[billvon 2,991]

>Sunni Muslim insurgents and Shiite Muslims loyal to a militant
>cleric challenged U.S.-led forces on two fronts Tuesday . . .

Ah well, at least they are united against us. Wouldn't want any division in their ranks!

[billvon 2,991]

>They are in a state of rage by plain and simple hatred incited
>by spiritual leaders that wish only for a 13th century lifestyle . . .

That's almost as good a sound bite as "they hate freedom!"

>we don't have a grasp on the "complex" issues.

Indeed.

[Gawain 0]

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>They are in a state of rage by plain and simple hatred incited
>by spiritual leaders that wish only for a 13th century lifestyle . . .

That's almost as good a sound bite as "they hate freedom!"

>we don't have a grasp on the "complex" issues.

Indeed.

In a way, you validated my point in your previous post ("they're united against us"). They are blinded by utter hatred with no understanding where it came from. If anything, that level of simplicity is indicative of a lack of grasp of the complexity.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>Sunni Muslim insurgents and Shiite Muslims loyal to a militant
>cleric challenged U.S.-led forces on two fronts Tuesday . . .

Ah well, at least they are united against us. Wouldn't want any division in their ranks!

The concern I have is these riots are being incited by Al Sayr who in turn is being supported by Hezzbulah and by default Iran. This is quite aturn of events and IMO change the US strategy dramatically. Thats why I am predicting we will be in Iran soon, particularly if Iran continues to stall with the IAEA.

[billvon 2,991]

>They are blinded by utter hatred with no understanding where it
> came from. If anything, that level of simplicity is indicative of a lack
> of grasp of the complexity.

Underestimating the enemy not only is a bad idea in general, it gets US soldiers killed. Believing they are all screaming maniacs full of blind hatred could set us up to fall flat on our faces when it turns out they actually have a cause that people will rally to, a plan to get there and the will to implement it. Claiming they are evil, blind, subhuman etc is, however, a time-tested method of making people think that they are not really human, and all deserve to be slaughtered. And that perhaps a firebombing or two is justified, if all it kills are "snivelling murdering Iraqi cowards."

So as long as the people in charge don't believe that nonsense we're OK, I think.

[Gawain 0]

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>They are blinded by utter hatred with no understanding where it
> came from. If anything, that level of simplicity is indicative of a lack
> of grasp of the complexity.

Underestimating the enemy not only is a bad idea in general, it gets US soldiers killed. Believing they are all screaming maniacs full of blind hatred could set us up to fall flat on our faces when it turns out they actually have a cause that people will rally to, a plan to get there and the will to implement it. Claiming they are evil, blind, subhuman etc is, however, a time-tested method of making people think that they are not really human, and all deserve to be slaughtered. And that perhaps a firebombing or two is justified, if all it kills are "snivelling murdering Iraqi cowards."

So as long as the people in charge don't believe that nonsense we're OK, I think.

I'm not claiming that they are sub-human. I am saying that their cause has no vision. These people want the US out of Iraq. The first step of that happening is scheduled to happen on June 30th, when Iraqi sovereignty is put in place. The result of that is US/Coalition occupying forces are compartmentalized and Iraqi security forces take primary roles. That enables coalition plans to begin moving out of Iraq.

If these insurgents, clerics, militants, baathists, and their causes are so well thought out, they would wait for Iraqi sovereignty to be transitioned and coalition forces to be in withdrawal. Why? Because they have a better chance of realizing their "dreams" of whatever cause they have by either fighting, plotting, whatever, against what is, by some accounts, a weak Iraqi council.

That doesn't even touch of the bullsh*t these so-called spiritual leaders spew at their followers. Their cause is nothing short of power. Look at Iran. These individuals are totally human, but are treated as sub-human by their own leaders.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Chrisky 0]

I have lurked on this thread a while, thinking whether to post or not.

Finaly someone is raising an interesting question in this thread.
Why did the US not act when the Hutus slaid the Tutsis back in '94? In three month 800,000 people were killed, that was a higher kill rate than the Holocaust. Clinton knew it all and didn't care. Nobody cared. How many dictatorships and cruelties are going on on the african continent right now?
Do the US care? No.

What makes Iraq special?
WMD? Found: zero and counting...GWB makes fun of it...
Largest oil reserves in the world and a staggerign US economy? Found: One and starting to exploit...

Think about propaganda:
Iraqis dont have the same means of information as everyone here, and ones picture of a situation is always determined by his possibilities of perception AND the way information is presented to him.
In a free society one has many different means of gaining information, and the way the information is being presented is usually very diversified. This allows for a quite good perception of a situation.

Imagine most of your infos coming from US TV. European broadcast companies, such as the very reputable BBC, that are not bound by the strong "patriotic" ties that bind US media, tell stories (i.e. about GWBs electoral tricks) WAY differently, which plays a major role in how europeans perceive the US president and his politics.
Now imagine you are an iraqi who only has two newspapers to choose from, and each one is leaning to one polarized side.
Then add personal experience etc. and whoops, even a well educated iraqi may become an enemy of US occupation.

On war crimes:
Bombing cities was extensively "researched" by the Allies in WWII. The idea of breaking the support of a regime by the civilian population by destroying they cities didn't work. Instead, the huge loss of civilian life bound people stronger to the regime...
In the bombing raid in 1945 on Dresden, one of the most beautiful cities in Europe, more than 100,000 civilians, mostly refugees from the eastern parts of Germany, were killed. The attack was completely reckless, as the city (known to allied bomber command) had no industries nor air defences, as it was not considered a military target by the germans. As a result, american fighter pilots, which were supposed to give air cover for the bombers and didn't encounter any resistance, went in and strafed the aeras of the city that were not burning.
Every side commits war crimes. Bad enough.

Fact: US soldiers had been granted immunity for war crimes in front of the international criminal court. Everyone else goes to trial for crimes.

Is "Right or wrong, it's my country!" really a good attitude?

Btw: In WWII German high command always noted the killing of terrorists in its reports. These terrorists were non-combattant fighters without uniforms or IDable outfits. They too killed soldiers from ambushes etc. The Allies celebrated them as the heroic french Resistance.
Hope this sparks some thought.

I learned to like the US for the open mindedness of the people i met there. This hasn't changed. I'm only asking myself, why patriotism sometimes blinds reason so clearly..

Please don't take any of this as disrespect of fallen soldiers.
It is criticism of the politics that put them where they are.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[piisfish 140]

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Then they should pass a law...anyone carrying a gun anywhere in Iraq (not members of the coalition) will be shot ...doesnt matter who, where, when, or why.

carry a gun or weapon...you are daid....real daid.

Bill Cole D-41

Then they should pass a law...anyone carrying a gun anywhere on earth (not members of police/army/authority) will be shot ...doesnt matter who, where, when, or why.

carry a gun or weapon...you are daid....real daid.


mmmh yeah, why not
*******
sorry for all the people getting killed in Irak, and for the families.
*******
nobody has been asked to go there. Just remember it is considered by a part of the population n Irak as an invasion, and if you are wearing a desert camo, you are a TARGET.
*******
there have been too many (far too many) losses. Unfortunately certainly not the last.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Skyrad 0]

Sorry Bill its actually 37 Dead US mil since monday. 1 Spanish & 1 Salvadorian. Large numbers of injured. At least 25 Iraqis on monday alone. The whole senario is a nightmare.

http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Tonto 1]

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They are blinded by utter hatred with no understanding where it came from.

You're kidding, right?

14 months ago, when I was saying "No" to a non UN backed invasion, you, Rhino etc were saying "Yes."

Now many are saying "How do we get out?" (With our pride intact and without leaving a militant anti US dictatorship?)

They hate you (USA) because you invaded their country in violation of international law and killed many, many civilians in the process, regardless of your high tech weaponry. You named your campagne "Shock and Awe" and you now wonder why the people you set out to shock and awe are setting out to shock and awe you back...

If you invaded my country on the pretext of whatever you thought was a good reason at the time and killed my kids by accident in the process, I can assure you I'd be planning any way I could to blow off your boys hands and feet. I wouldn't want them dead. I'd want them wandering your malls and eating their fast food with stumps and hobbeling about for the next 60 years as a reminder to the rest of you what happens when you piss people off.

What makes you think they're any different?

(I've been a soldier. I've been on the wrond side of the moral deviding line. I have sympathy for everyone involved in this conflict. It's a fuck-up.)

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I have sympathy for everyone involved in this conflict. It's a fuck-up."

Yep.

"14 months ago, when I was saying "No" to a non UN backed invasion, you, Rhino etc were saying "Yes." "

Yep.

And the moral argument that Saddam was a really bad guy so we had to oust him, doesn't cut it with me either. Case in point, the US continue to support Islam Karimov in Uzbekistan, despite his record on human rights. As long as the US administration openly supports people like this, they will engender hatred from oppressed people.

"Political opposition is not tolerated in Uzbekistan. The media is not free. The UN says torture is "systematic".
Nevertheless, after the attacks of 11 September 2001, Uzbekistan was placed firmly on the map as a US ally.
The Uzbek government made its airspace and military facilities available to US forces, facilitating the operation to remove the Taleban in neighbouring Afghanistan.
Uzbekistan has since become an important strategic outpost for the United States."
Source
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3582773.stm

"In April 1999, for example, President Karimov, portrayed as the guarantor of democracy and human rights, stated publicly that he was prepared to tear off the heads of two hundred people in order to protect Uzbekistan's freedom and stability. Amnesty International is concerned that such statements, together with the authorities' persistent failure to initiate impartial and thorough investigations into allegations of torture and ill-treatment, may create an impression that arbitrary arrest, torture and ill-treatment in general, and in particular of alleged supporters of banned secular political and Islamic opposition parties by law enforcement officials is acceptable and even necessary conduct, and that they can engage in such conduct with impunity."

source http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/engEUR620062001!Open

I think the solution may be to treat the cause and not the symptom. If you can work out why someone would want to attack you, you may come closer to a solution. Supporting evil people like Karimov may not be the only cause.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[wmw999 2,447]

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They are blinded by utter hatred with no understanding where it came from.

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You're kidding, right?

I don't think so.
I think some people tie a lot of where they live, and what the people around them are like, to "basic human instinct" and "right and wrong."

The US Constitution is not inherently right. It works for us, but there are billions of happy people around the world who don't have one, and who have never needed done. But most of those people have a sense of self-determination on one level or another -- it might not be in government, but in family, or work, or school, or religion. Or something hidden.

In "Fiddler on the Roof" the statement is made that no matter how downtrodden the Jew was in the world (and in old Russia Jews were largely downtrodden), on the Sabbath he was king. All the best table stuff was hauled out; the best food, and everyone rested for a day.

If you get between people and what's important to them they will hate you. If you're happy, and you make it possible for them to be more like you, that doesn't mean they'll be happy.

What does this mean about Iraq? Well, I hear George Bush talking about what constitutes an acceptable government to turn over control to. What if they wanted to have a queen with a parliament? What if they wanted a liberal theocracy? What if they wanted to have a Supreme Soviet?

No matter what government is selected either by or for the people of Iraq, there will be dissenters. And if they feel powerless enough, and as though they have little enough to lose, they will include terrorism in their arsenal to help themselves to what they see as long-term happiness, for either themselves or their families.

They love their families fiercely, just as we do. They need to eat, and feel validated in what they do, just as we do. Those are far more innate human needs than a need for democracy.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Skyrad 0]

I couldn't agree with you more Wendy. Democracy works for us in the west but it doesn't necessarily transplant well into cultures that are vastly different to our own.

nacmacfeegle is spot on as well, part of the recent problems in Iraq with the Shites stems from America not condeming Israels assasination of the spiritual head of Hamas. Muslims see the double standard being applied in Israel and Chechnya and resent the west for it. Now America is taking the frankly stupid step of using attack helicopters in residental areas like the Israelis do. That grouping of the US and Israel in Arab minds will be even more so.
No double standard you may think? What would have been the US response if the British Army had used Lynx attack helicopters to destroy houses on the Falls road (Norther Ireland) or turned out people from their homes and blown them up as reprisals against terror attacks like Israel does? Unacceptable? Counterproductive? Of course, so why is the US now applying Israels rules of engagement?
So much for hearts and minds.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I am saying that their cause has no vision.

Please do tell me then, what is the cause and or vision of the US with regards to Iraq?

What makes US citizens so much superior over Iraqi citizens?

Like Wendy so eloquently stated, I think you'll find that all our basic needs are very, very similar.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I am saying that their cause has no vision.

Please do tell me then, what is the cause and or vision of the US with regards to Iraq?

What makes US citizens so much superior over Iraqi citizens?

The difference? How about we don't machine gun the cars of innocent civilians who are protecting the supplies of food and medicine for our children and then burn their bodies and hang them from bridges like pieces of meat? Hows that for starters?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

That still doesn't explain the cause and vision of the US with regard to Iraq.

The US is not completely clean on the killing of innocent civilians either.

[Tonto 1]

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The US is not completely clean on the killing of innocent civilians either.

Now there's an understatement.. considering rocket attacks against houses in a city last night, with 26 women and children killed.

The 4 US civilians killed were all ex-Mil, armed, and working for a security company... and wasn't it someone from the US that said "Bring it on!" and "you're either for us or against us" ?

Not arguing with you.....

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Tonto 1]

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The difference? How about we don't machine gun the cars of innocent civilians

No... You attack them with Helicopter gunships and AC-130's instead...

And you can't understand why they react the way they do...

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[outrager 6]

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I am saying that their cause has no vision.

The difference? How about we don't machine gun the cars of innocent civilians who are protecting the supplies of food and medicine for our children and then burn their bodies and hang them from bridges like pieces of meat? Hows that for starters?

What an ignorance. US forces fired on dozens of civilian cars in Iraq killing a huge number of innocents, whereas the "innocent civilians" you mention were armed mercenaries, ex-US military. In the last three days US forces have killed _hundreds_ of Iraqies, huge part of them civilians, plenty of women and children. Machine gunning an ambulance on the way to a hospital yesterday is just one fine example to your point.

Emotions towards US stretching from dislike to hate are spreading much wider than the public here realizes. They go way beyond a muslim world, and they will bite hard eventually. Bin Laden's vision of spreading the hatred towards US is being implemented very efficiently. Incredibly, a lot of people who have oppose muslim fanatics now begin to hate US about as much as they hate the terrorists. It will only get worse.

bsbd!

Yuri.

• Quote

[billvon 2,991]

>I am saying that their cause has no vision. These people want the
>US out of Iraq. The first step of that happening is scheduled to
> happen on June 30th, when Iraqi sovereignty is put in place.

I agree that, if that is their goal, they made a poor decision. However, that may not be their goal. It may be to prevent the handover at all costs, because they see the new government as just as bad as US rule but harder to get rid of. Don't forget, these people spent decades under a brutal Iraqi government; they may not want another one. Or it may be something completely different. It's hard for us, living here well-protected in the US, to put ourselves in their place. Look at how 9/11 shook us; then imagine living in a country where one 9/11 a year is a good year.

>That doesn't even touch of the bullsh*t these so-called spiritual
> leaders spew at their followers. Their cause is nothing short of
> power. Look at Iran. These individuals are totally human, but are
> treated as sub-human by their own leaders.

Agreed that there's a lot of bullshit coming out of the mouths of their "leaders."

[billvon 2,991]

>>What makes US citizens so much superior over Iraqi citizens?

>The difference? How about we don't machine gun the cars of innocent
> civilians who are protecting the supplies of food and medicine for
>our children and then burn their bodies and hang them from bridges
> like pieces of meat? Hows that for starters?

These would be the same innocent Iraqi civilians you wanted to liberate from Hussein's evil rule, right? Funny what a difference a year makes.

[Skyrad 0]

Another five dead today. That makes FORTY TWO DEAD US SOLDIERS since sunday.


04/07/04 AP: Five US Marines killed near bombed Fallujah mosque
Five US Marines were killed by gunfire from within the mosque in the Iraqi city of Fallujah that was under attack from US forces, a Central Command spokesman said.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

I wouldn't start bashing the Iranians just yet. The US hasn't exactly got a glowing humantarian rep at the moment either.

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/politics/story.jsp?story=509209

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca