Chrisky 0 #76 April 8, 2004 The messy security in post-Saddam Iraq is the fault of the coalition not having ANY IDEA OR PLAN how to preserve law and order after disabling all iraqi security forces, including police. I call that "unfinished business"...The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open. From the edge you just see more. ... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #77 April 8, 2004 Of course, i would help her out, but it is not the same. There is a diference beetwen seeing a rape going on where you are and helping out and going on purpose where you know that there could be trouble to help. That is the job of the policeman. Also it is worth to note that that help is not apreciated anymore. I don´t even know if it was apreciated at some time. (I am talking about Irak, of course) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,447 #78 April 8, 2004 QuoteWhy did you put "inhumanity" in quotes? Because I wanted to. Saddam Hussein is a bad man; if nothing else, raising his sons to be the sick bastards they are proves it. And there is more. However, there are other equally bad men out there whom we apparently don't care as much about. No, we can't do it to all of them, but we've ended up in a serious shitstorm here through wanting to do it ourselves. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,447 #79 April 8, 2004 Not a reply to anyone... That said, has anyone ever read the Heinlein book Sixth Column? In it, the US is invaded by brutal Panasians, and they form a fake religious cult to fight the invaders. Those are the good guys. How many here liked the movie "Red Dawn?" More terrorists/guerillas. Like it or not, there are people in Iraq to whom we are invaders. Not everyone who is angry at us now liked Saddam Hussein. Some just want us the fuck out of their lives. How many here, if they weren't 10,000 miles away and worshipping Allah, could identify with people who just want to have a predictable life, because no life is perfect? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiltboy 0 #80 April 8, 2004 QuoteHey England.....how about getting out of N Ireland ? N. Ireland is part of the UK it's not a foreign policy screw up. The majority of the population vote to remain part of the UK that's democracy not a foreign policy screw up. There are a bunch of terrorists in N.Ireland , loyalist and republican and both as bad as each other. Could the US please send lots of troops and planes to kill them as part of the war on terror? . I think this thread is discussing the current foreign policy of a bunch of countries i.e. the coalition of the willing. David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #81 April 8, 2004 QuoteYes Mikkey... we also know the meaning of the word "IS". We can judge what you said on its' merits without you doin more "splainin" So what was it in the word "latest" you don't understand? It is clear that you need to get things explained as you dont seem to be able to understand what is written and not able to rise above smart ass comments.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #82 April 8, 2004 Plus, the English army aren't in Northern Ireland. Apart from that, the Kiltboy got it mostly right.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #83 April 8, 2004 I was being general,not specific,since the thread was primarily about US in Iraq and not about UK in N Ireland,please forgive me, if you want a real debate about the merits of Brit. invovlement in N ireland please feel free and start a new thread!I will be happy to accomodate you!Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #84 April 8, 2004 Quote Problem is the Islamo-facists won't stop if they are left alone. When, since 1914, have the Islamic nations of the world been "left alone" by the west? You have no factual basis on which to make this statement. If the situation were reversed I expect you would be among the first to take up arms against the invaders.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #85 April 8, 2004 Aye, I know, its good to sidetrack now and then. Its not just the US in Iraq that concerns me, its the foreign policy in general (see my comments on Uzbekistan a few posts up for example). If you think I have no busness questioning the foreign policies of a country I no longer live in, think again. What the US does has profound effects on the rest of the world, eg if you guys can't sort out your budget deficits, a financial crash may ensue, which has wide reaching consequences. That will influence my life. Your patriot act will make it more difficult for me to visit your country, people now require a visa which is a PITA to obtain, that effects me. Unrest in the middle east will drive up oil prices, that effects me. And at the end of the day, I work for an American company. I'm not Anti American, I have many friends there, I am against certain aspects of your foreign policies, and feel I do have the right to question them, because they have an influence on my life. There are uglier troubles going on right now in the world, check out Sudan, Chechnya, and a really nasty situation in Uganda involving 'armies' largely comprised of kids, to mention a few. None of them actually have the huge influence on my life in the same way as those involving the US. And there aren't many people from those other regions I can have a reasonable discussion with.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #86 April 8, 2004 QuoteWhen, since 1914, have the Islamic nations of the world been "left alone" by the west? Why don't you try reading my comments within the context in which they were made. QuoteYou have no factual basis on which to make this statement. Sure I do and I made it when I used the bombings in Spain as an example. QuoteIf the situation were reversed I expect you would be among the first to take up arms against the invaders. Now who is making statements without factual basis? If I lived under a represive govt the way the Iraqi's did under Saddam, I would probably welcome invaders much in the same way the French welcomed the US in WW2. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #87 April 8, 2004 QuoteSure I do and I made it when I used the bombings in Spain as an example. I don't get how the bombings in Spain prove that if we get out of the middle east they won't leave us alone. Spain is still there and doesn't plan to pull out until the 6/30 cutover. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #88 April 8, 2004 Quote...has anyone ever read the Heinlein book Sixth Column? In it, the US is invaded by brutal Panasians, and they form a fake religious cult to fight the invaders. Ah, the cult of the great got Mota? Heinlein is one of my favorite authors. I think I've read everything he wrote. My roommates used to refer to Time Enough for Love as the "Libertarian Manifesto", and claimed that early repeated exposure to Heinlein had brainwashed me into radical Libertarianism.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiltboy 0 #89 April 8, 2004 I'm not about to open the can of worms that is N.Ireland as it's been done here before. As for the other examples I think it is only fair to criticise a current government and not prior ones. I'm not about to criticise the current US administration for the decisions of the prior Clinton administration. However the decisions of the US government do directly influence me as I live in the US and the US government policies also influence the UK (my nationality) as Tony goes along for the ride. David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #90 April 8, 2004 Funny we should be speaking of Heinlein. This morning, I finished reading, for about the fourth time, Stranger in a Strange Land. A tempting view of utopia, if only it didn't rely so heavily on one vision of Martian culture.A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #91 April 8, 2004 Actually, Stranger is pretty much my least favorite of Heinlein's works. He definitely wrote some relatively non-philosophical stuff (like Starship Troopers), but some of his fiction is halfway between political theory and sci-fi--very entertaining _and_ very thought provoking. Have you read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress? Now there's a good bit of political theory.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #92 April 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteProblem is the Islamo-facists won't stop if they are left alone. When, since 1914, have the Islamic nations of the world been "left alone" by the west? You have no factual basis on which to make this statement. If the situation were reversed I expect you would be among the first to take up arms against the invaders. American involvement in the middle east pales in comparison to the tinkering that European policies have done over the centuries. Even until the latter part of the 20th century.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #93 April 8, 2004 "American involvement in the middle east pales in comparison to the tinkering that European policies have done over the centuries. Even until the latter part of the 20th century. " Thats a fair point, but that was then and this is now.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FliegendeWolf 0 #94 April 8, 2004 I haven't; the only other book I've read of his is The Cat Who Could Walk Through Walls. I wasn't as impressed by that one, although I loved to watch the gender hierarchy as it shifted between Richard and Gwen, particularly how condescending Richard is to Gwen in the beginning of the book ("Use your head, Gwen.") and how by the end of the book we learn just how experienced Gwen is and suddenly Richard looks like a baby. Never did get the whole cat walking through walls thing...such an insignificant part of the story to be used as its title.A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #95 April 8, 2004 Quote"American involvement in the middle east pales in comparison to the tinkering that European policies have done over the centuries. Even until the latter part of the 20th century. " Thats a fair point, but that was then and this is now. Indeed, but it is difficult to overlook that some of these issues exist solely because of those policys of 80, 100, 200 years ago. Iraq certainly included.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #96 April 8, 2004 "some of these issues exist solely because of those policys" I wouldn't say solely, but certainly influential, the people of the middle east have long memories. The challenge is trying to pick out where 'we' went wrong and learning from those mistakes.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #97 April 8, 2004 I couldn't agree with you more......its a concern for most everyone over here as well.With a very closely intertwined global economy,what our govt does good or bad does have pretty far reaching effects on everybody else.And yes there is quite a bit of ugliness in some parts of the world that at some point should be cleaned up by concerned parties.And I do apologise for the inconveniences brought about by the "patriot act"but after some of the treatment I have endured at Gatwick.......and yes,it is good to have this forum for intelligent ( or not so intelligent) discourseMarc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #98 April 8, 2004 QuoteQuoteSure I do and I made it when I used the bombings in Spain as an example. I don't get how the bombings in Spain prove that if we get out of the middle east they won't leave us alone. Spain is still there and doesn't plan to pull out until the 6/30 cutover. If you recall, the reason given for the bombings were because of Spains support for the Iraqi War. The previous Spanish Govt. was defeated in the elections b/c Al Qaeda made a statement that the bombing would continue unless Spain withdrew troops. The new Govt, responding to fear announced they would withdraw. Another terrorist plot was just discovered in Spain. So apparently the bombings have nothing to do with Spains support for the war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #99 April 8, 2004 LOL.....Maybe the US can adopt the method of conflict resolution the Brits have used to great effect in Northern Ireland. All you have to do is form a government in which all the top people are terrorists, call them polititions and voila! Problem solved! Incidently how long are Paul Bremner and co going to keep calling pissed off Iraqis terrorists and foreign fighters? No ones buying it, not even the CIA.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #100 April 8, 2004 Quote"some of these issues exist solely because of those policys" I wouldn't say solely, but certainly influential, the people of the middle east have long memories. The challenge is trying to pick out where 'we' went wrong and learning from those mistakes. The reason why Iraq exists is because of occupation by the Britain during the course of WWI. In 1920, it was declared a League of Nations mandate under UK administration. Iraq attained its independence as a kingdom in 1932. I am not blaming that on the UK, if anything, it's the fault of the League of Nations (essentially a predecessor to the UN -- hmmm, another impotent organization...).So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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