12 Marines killed in Iraq

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"there is quite a bit of ugliness in some parts of the world that at some point should be cleaned up by concerned parties"

Its the 10th anniversary of the start of the Rwanda genocide, and I can't help feeling we haven't moved any closer to being able to prevent that happening again.
It shouldn't be like this.
It makes me sad and sometimes angry.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[TomAiello 26]

If you're in the mood for some good Heinlein reads, try Time Enough for Love which is truly his seminal work (I don't know why everyone focuses on Stranger), or The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

Other good ones include Gulf (a novella) and the sequel Friday (a novel). I also highly recommend Methuselah's Children the prequel to Time Enough for Love.

I'd have PM'd this to you, but I'm hoping someone else will read it and pick one of these books up, some time...

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[PhillyKev 0]

Ummm...what part about Spanish troops still being in Iraq is confusing? Gee, you mean the terrorists didn't immediately stop all their plans because a PM-elect made a statement? I said get out of Iraq, not make a speech.

If the bombings have nothing to do with the war, please tell me why the terrorists targeted spain?

[wmw999 2,447]

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The new Govt, responding to fear announced they would withdraw. Another terrorist plot was just discovered in Spain. So apparently the bombings have nothing to do with Spains support for the war.

And, of course, all terrorist plots are alike, and caught conspirators all tell the truth.

Why do you think the Muslim fundamentalists in Spain hatch terrorist plots -- are all Muslim fundamentalists terrorists? Just the ones who have participated in plots? Because if you say any permutation of "it's because they're Muslim fundamentalists" and generalize in one direction, it's only intellectually honest to test your theory by generalizing in other directions.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Gravitymaster 0]

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The new Govt, responding to fear announced they would withdraw. Another terrorist plot was just discovered in Spain. So apparently the bombings have nothing to do with Spains support for the war.

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And, of course, all terrorist plots are alike, and caught conspirators all tell the truth.

Not sure what you are saying here. The statements came from Al Qaeda.

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Why do you think the Muslim fundamentalists in Spain hatch terrorist plots -- are all Muslim fundamentalists terrorists?

I never said they were. People who plot or carry out terrorist acts are terrorists.

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Just the ones who have participated in plots?

Yep.

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Because if you say any permutation of "it's because they're Muslim fundamentalists" and generalize in one direction, it's only intellectually honest to test your theory by generalizing in other directions.

If I said that, I would agree with you, but I didn't say nor mean that. I believe the word I used was Islamofascists and Al Qaeda. Pretty much interchangeable word.


Wendy W.

[markd_nscr986 0]

Ahhhh, come on......why cant we beat the N Ireland question to death(whine whine)And as far as judging current world affairs just on the basis of the current administration,that's rather short-sighted isn't it.After all they are having to deal with policies and fall out from several previous administrations.I will grant you though,they have come up with a few real "gems" all on their own.

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[livendive 8]

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The previous Spanish Govt. was defeated in the elections b/c Al Qaeda made a statement that the bombing would continue unless Spain withdrew troops. The new Govt, responding to fear announced they would withdraw. Another terrorist plot was just discovered in Spain. So apparently the bombings have nothing to do with Spains support for the war.

Announcement does not equal withdrawal. While your conclusion may prove true in the future, it is thus far unsubstantiated.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kiltboy 0]

No there will be no beating to death of N. Ireland.

I didn't mean to imply that you can't bring previous administrations into the debate i.e historical perspectives, how we got to where we are kind of thing, as that's all important stuff.

But the idea of "The US wasn't concerned with Rwanda why are they interested in Iraq?" and asking this current US administration to justify the actions/inactions of a previous one is pretty unfair in my opinion.
Note I'm not implying you have done this but that's where I was trying to go with my explanation.

David

[rhino 0]

As far as the Mosques are concerned. If they are used as a base for combat actions they are no longer protected sites.

Expect to see these blown to hell in a few days..

[rhino 0]

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Lets not forget the ONLY reason we invaded Iraq was because we (the government) were sure there was WMD in Iraq.

You are 100% incorrect.. That was one of the many reasons.

[rhino 0]

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And to think we got upset when Hussein killed 20,000 rebellious Kurds.

How many Bill? Check your numbers again.. Let's not forget Chemical Ali..

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=5773

[billvon 2,991]

>A tempting view of utopia, if only it didn't rely so heavily on one vision
> of Martian culture.

Check out Le Guin's "The Disposessed" for another interesting take on utopias as seen from three different cultures.

[billvon 2,991]

>How many Bill? Check your numbers again..

He killed 20,000 in one attack. He killed a total of about 50,000 Kurds, and a total of about 250,000 Iraqis during his supressions of various uprisings.

So far we've killed about 9000 innocent Iraqis. We're doing much better than Hussein did, despite Gravitymaster's assertion that there are 240,000 evil Iraqis who just "haven't been killed yet." I hope we continue to do better than an evil tyrant we deposed.

>Let's not forget Chemical Ali..

Or Dupont.

[skydyvr 0]

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Also it is worth to note that that help is not apreciated anymore.

I am hoping we will be appreciated in the long run, say 3-5 years from now.

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I don´t even know if it was apreciated at some time. (I am talking about Irak, of course)

In the early phase of the occupation, 2 out of 3 Iraqis were glad we did what we did, according a Gallup poll. Don't know what the number is now.

. . =(_8^(1)

[livendive 8]

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>How many Bill? Check your numbers again..

He killed 20,000 in one attack. He killed a total of about 50,000 Kurds, and a total of about 250,000 Iraqis during his supressions of various uprisings.

So far we've killed about 9000 innocent Iraqis. We're doing much better than Hussein did, despite Gravitymaster's assertion that there are 240,000 evil Iraqis who just "haven't been killed yet." I hope we continue to do better than an evil tyrant we deposed.

I don't know about *much* better. My perception (and I'm not sure where I got it) was that the number was considerably higher than 9,000...i.e. closer to 25-30 k. In any case, we've done that in one year, as opposed to 20+ years.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,991]

>My perception (and I'm not sure where I got it) was that the
>number was considerably higher than 9,000...i.e. closer to 25-30 k.

9000 non-combatants (actually between 8865 and 10715, depending on which reports you believe have been duplicated.) The 30K number includes Iraqi military personnel.

[kallend 2,027]

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Problem is the Islamo-facists won't stop if they are left alone.

When, since 1914, have the Islamic nations of the world been "left alone" by the west?

You have no factual basis on which to make this statement.

If the situation were reversed I expect you would be among the first to take up arms against the invaders.

American involvement in the middle east pales in comparison to the tinkering that European policies have done over the centuries. Even until the latter part of the 20th century.

And your point is?

Wise people learn from the mistakes of others. Morons insist on making the same mistakes themselves. The US has plenty of bad examples to learn from, but hasn't learned anything, apparently.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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If the situation were reversed I expect you would be among the first to take up arms against the invaders.

Now who is making statements without factual basis? If I lived under a represive govt the way the Iraqi's did under Saddam, I would probably welcome invaders much in the same way the French welcomed the US in WW2.

Hitler wasn't French, Saddam is an Iraqi.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,027]

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Lets not forget the ONLY reason we invaded Iraq was because we (the government) were sure there was WMD in Iraq.

You are 100% incorrect.. That was one of the many reasons.

That's not what you were writing in February - May last year. Right up until the time it became obvious to almost everyone that the Bush's WMD tales were fairy tales.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[livendive 8]

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>My perception (and I'm not sure where I got it) was that the
>number was considerably higher than 9,000...i.e. closer to 25-30 k.

9000 non-combatants (actually between 8865 and 10715, depending on which reports you believe have been duplicated.) The 30K number includes Iraqi military personnel.

Well since I'm sure at least some of those uprisings Saddam was putting down involved "combatants", an apples to apples comparison has us killing three times more Iraqis per year than Saddam Hussein did.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,991]

>>Lets not forget the ONLY reason we invaded Iraq was because we
>> (the government) were sure there was WMD in Iraq.

>You are 100% incorrect.. That was one of the many reasons.

Ah, how times change!

3/7/03:
>I have NO DOUBT at all that we already know where the WMD's are
> at. That is where the first, biggest, and baddest bombs will fall. If
> we let everyone know that we know he will move them and we won't
> be able to destroy them.

>If it was just about oil Saddham wouldn't have WMD's to begin with..

>A deadline is PARAMOUNT to not getting jerked around any longer
> while Sadham hides his weapons in CIVILIAN automobiles and
> homes. We can not wait any longer..

2/7/03:
>At the rate he was building his weapons program he would have used
>WMD's more and won..

And one ironic one:

>GWB's public opinion polls are about to rise..

[billvon 2,991]

>Well since I'm sure at least some of those uprisings Saddam was
> putting down involved "combatants", an apples to apples
> comparison has us killing three times more Iraqis per year than
> Saddam Hussein did.

I'm trying to give us the benefit of the doubt here . . .

[Skyrad 0]

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As far as the Mosques are concerned. If they are used as a base for combat actions they are no longer protected sites.

Expect to see these blown to hell in a few days..

Thats is a extreamly short sighted view. It amazes me just how the US manages to squander good will. After 9/11 there was so much support for the US yet two years on it was all gone. A year ago in Iraq the US was seen by many as liberators from a oppresive regime and the majority of the population felt good will towards the US. Now only one year on the country has turned on the coalition thanks to the heavy handed response of the US. But credit where its due, in one year the US has managed to accomplish what Sadam couldn't in thirty; the Iraqi unity across the religious divide of Shite and Sunni. Tonight I watched Shitie muslims giving their blood for the muslims of Falluja.
By bombing a mosque the US turn middle of the road Iraqis into resistance fighters. Not only Iraqis but muslims outside of Iraq as well.
Its about time the US took a leaf out of the British book on COIN. After all its what we do best.
Defend yourselves when needed but don't use tanks on the streets and attack helicopters in residential areas. Falluja could have been contained, give them time to cool down and then open lines of communication, get a dialouge going and defuse the situation. Like the British Army is doing in Amara. What would you do Rhino if you lived in a place that had been invaded? What if the army of occupation then stopped freedom of the press (see this from their point of view here) then surrounded your town and started blowing innocent civvies to bits using hellicopter gunships and tanks? What if they then killed forty people at prayer while they were in a church? What would you do?
The coalition isn't there to kill anyone that it doesn't like, its there to build a nation. That means you have to work with the people of that country not confront them and use disproportional force to kill indescriminatly.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[PhillyKev 0]

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see this from their point of view here

I don't think that's possible for many people and is the main factor that divides those rabidly supporting the war and those who think things need to be done differently.

Lack of empathy is the root cause of evil.

[rhino 0]

It isn't short sited if you are a Marine in Iraq and some pussy is shooting you from a mosque? "What do you mean we can't shoot back sir?"

My ass... It is called rules of engagement. The only way you would really have a right to call it short sited is if you were being shot at from a mosque.. Have you been shot at? Have you been in Iraq?

Do you think a mosque should be a safehouse for terrorists?

Level the fucker's I say.. If the Iraqi people don't want them bombed to the ground they should police their own.

Sooner or later Iraqi's have to stand up to the Iraqi's that are holding up progress.