If a worker strikes, should he lose his job?

[billvon 3,071]

>Ok, isn't that what a strike is?

No, a strike is where people who have no beef with the company refuse to work because everyone else is doing it. When you quit, you stop getting paid by that company and you get a new job at another.

[Nightingale 0]

Dude... there are some college professors here in california that don't make $19.50 an hour.

A grocery store checker is UNSKILLED labor. Should be minimum wage or thereabouts. Not damn near $20.00 a day.

[billvon 3,071]

>Yah, and the price of gas is over 2 bucks a gallon. The cost of living
> in CA is outrageous. How can you say that getting 19.50 an hour
> isn't fair?

Who said anything about being fair? This is capitalism; it's not inherently fair.

>How much do they pay in taxes for the privilige of living there?

A lot. Fortunately, we have a good interstate highway system, paid for by taxes, that allows people to move wherever they choose.

[diverdriver 6]

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Dude... there are some college professors here in california that don't make $19.50 an hour.

A grocery store checker is UNSKILLED labor. Should be minimum wage or thereabouts. Not damn near $20.00 a day.

!

UNSKILLED does not mean "dumb". You know, anyone who spends 25 years working for one company should be rewarded for loyalty. I doubt a new hire checker makes 19.50. Do they? It's like saying all airline pilots make 300K a year. They don't. I don't even make over 100k and I fly in and out of the busiest airport in the world 2-3 times a day!

My point is that there are reasons why you pay people this much and that people distort the whole picture just because their opinion is that they get paid too much. People say I'm paid too much. Yah well, I don't own my own house. I'd say I'm not paid enough.

Minimum wage? So they should never ever get a raise for loyalty to the company? Yah, that'll motivate them to work harder.

[PhillyKev 0]

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A grocery store checker is UNSKILLED labor. Should be minimum wage or thereabouts. Not damn near $20.00 a day.

you do realize that's about 11K a year? Barely above the way too low poverty line for a single person. And about 60% of families below the poverty line have 2 or more working members.

[kallend 2,106]

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If an employee with 25 years with a company has his contract run out and he goes on strike until a new contract is agreed upon, does the employer have the right to hire somebody else? Whatchya think???

Under certain defined conditions a strike is a legitimate bargaining tool by labor, just as a lock-out is a legitimate bargaining tool by management.

In order to prevent abuses in both directions and based on past experience, we have arrived at a certain set of labor laws that govern what can and cannot be done.

The only reason labor unions exist is on account of gross abuses by employers in the 19th and early 20th Centuries.

Collective bargaining gives to workers a similar bargaining power that the business owners already have - after all, each individual stockholder doesn't negotiate separately. The stockholders bargain collectively by way of the corporation's board, and the workers bargain collectively by way of their labor union.

Seems a fair and reasonable compromise to me.

So the answer to the question is........

Maybe, and maybe not.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[PhillyKev 0]

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The only reason labor unions exist is on account of gross abuses by employers in the 19th and early 20th Centuries.

Which would probably quickly return if unions were banned. Everyone sitting in their cushy office jobs don't realize that unions are protecting their interests as well.

[lawrocket 3]

There was a bill that came up for a vote in Congress several years ago that would make termination of any union worker who went on strike illegal. In other words, the position could be filled, but once the strike was over, the "scab" would have to be fired and the union worker allowed back.

I personally think that many unions have outlived much of their usefulness. The unions back in the day stood up against excesses of an uncaring business climate, and stood for the little man.

Now, every time a new contract is negotiated, layoffs of the little men ensue. The unions of today mainly seek to protect the established and the defensible, as opposed to the defenseless and oppressed.

Did the UFCW do favors to the checkers and box clerks when they went on strike? I don't think so. That's why I read the stories about the cashing in of stocks and liquidating savings to make ends meet for them. And the union leadership still got paid the same.

Unions have becoe what they despise...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Nightingale 0]

The new workers start between $15.50 and $17.50.

I never said "unskilled" meant dumb. It means without skill. Additional training not required. Skilled jobs, by nature, pay more (union interference not withstanding) simply because there are fewer people who can do them. Unskilled means that basically anyone can do it. Why should a company pay more for someone to do something anyone can do? Companies pay for their employee's skill. If you've gone to school to become an aerospace engineer, you can expect to be paid fairly well for your skill. Conversely, if you have no skills, your value as a worker is minimal.

I also didn't say they should never, ever get a raise. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

Do you also believe that fast food restaurant workers should be paid almost $20 an hour? I guess you want to pay $12 for a burger then. The high wages paid to unskilled workers because of union bargaining is part of why your groceries are so expensive.

If you increase the base salary, that means that everyone has more money to spend, and therefore, prices go up, usually to the point where things equalize out exactly the way they were, but with the dollar worth less. When California raised its minimum wage from $4.25 to almost $7.00, do you really think that helped out minimum wage workers? NO. They're still scraping by, just like before. It just means that now a loaf of bread is $2.50 instead of $1.50.

The thing is, capitalism by nature creates a social pecking order. Someone's got to be on the bottom for it to work. When you start giving everyone the same benefits, no matter what the job, you end up with socialism.

Capitalism has its flaws. However, it also has its benefits. Don't like your job, pay or benefits? Go to night school. Earn your GED. Earn your AA. Its $13 a unit, and if you're below a certain income level, you can even get the government to pay for it, so you can get a better job.

If you don't like your lot in life, take steps to improve it, YOURSELF. I've busted my ass to get an education so I can have a well paying job. Why should I pay more for my groceries or hamburgers because others choose not to get an education and a better job? That isn't my fault. Don't penalize me for others' lack of motivation.

[PhillyKev 0]

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When California raised its minimum wage from $4.25 to almost $7.00, do you really think that helped out minimum wage workers? NO. They're still scraping by, just like before.

So you do concede that minimm wage is barely enough to live on. And are you trying to say that inflationi jumped 64% when the minimum wage was raised? I find that hard to believe.

[Nightingale 0]

I'm saying minimum wage is pointless. The more you increase minimum wage, the more prices increase, and the minimum wage workers are in the same spot as before. Its an artificial way of attempting to increase the standard of living and has proven time and again to be ineffectual.

The minimum wage is barely enough to live on. You're right. But increasing it doesn't change anything, because they're still on the bottom of the economic pyramid. If you really want to increase the standard of living, instead of raising the minimum wage, require paid time off for employees to go to school and earn their degrees. Then, those that choose to, can move on to more skilled professions.

[kallend 2,106]

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I'm saying minimum wage is pointless. The more you increase minimum wage, the more prices increase, and the minimum wage workers are in the same spot as before. Its an artificial way of attempting to increase the standard of living and has proven time and again to be ineffectual.

The minimum wage is barely enough to live on. You're right. But increasing it doesn't change anything, because they're still on the bottom of the economic pyramid. If you really want to increase the standard of living, instead of raising the minimum wage, require paid time off for employees to go to school and earn their degrees. Then, those that choose to, can move on to more skilled professions.

So when everyone has a MS degree, who is going to collect the garbage and clean the sewers?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[diverdriver 6]

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So when everyone has a MS degree, who is going to collect the garbage and clean the sewers?

Exactly what I was thinking. You know, some people like manual labor over pencil pushing. Should they be penalized or demeaned as "unmotivated to better themselves" because of that? No. They won't make over 100k being a checker at the grocery store but I disagree that it's so outrageous that they earn a decent wage. What if it's a single mother who has zero time to go to school and finish? Should she be penalized? This keeps people off of the welfare lists in my opinion. Better this and give them some self respect rather than have them go to the government begging and doing who knows what in the mean time to make ends meet. Sure, it might be a stretch in thought. But not much of one.

[Nightingale 0]

the people who aren't motivated to get such a degree. There will always be some.

[PhillyKev 0]

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So when everyone has a MS degree, who is going to collect the garbage and clean the sewers?

Exactly. There are lots of jobs that need to be done by unskilled workers. Many of them are unpleasant. Their value is their willingness to do that unpleasant job. That value has a price.

[Nightingale 0]

there are several organizations who offer free babysitting to single mothers who wish to attend high school classes. I don't mind offering assistance to people trying to improve their lot in life. I do mind offering assistance to people who would rather whine about how bad things are than do anything to fix it.

[PhillyKev 0]

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there are several organizations who offer free babysitting to single mothers who wish to attend high school classes.

You can get college degrees in high school now?

[lawrocket 3]

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When California raised its minimum wage from $4.25 to almost $7.00, do you really think that helped out minimum wage workers? NO. They're still scraping by, just like before.

So you do concede that minimm wage is barely enough to live on. And are you trying to say that inflationi jumped 64% when the minimum wage was raised? I find that hard to believe.

Actually, several people I know couldn't get jobs or lost them (My brother's friends - one of them actually got laid off becuase of the increased wage).

The point is that those like Kris and me both had low paying jobs. This was during high school and college, where we were making some ends meet at school, and not learnign a technical trade on the job.

I didn't have a family to support. I really don't have one until now, when I have the means to do it (and even that will be tight). Anyone saying, "I can't feed my wife and 6 kids on 6.25 per hour" should perhaps have thought, "I am unskilled and I should learn a trade so I can hopefully support my wife and the six kids I hope to have."

That is, why not use the low wage or unskilled job as it should be used - as a stepping stone or a supplement.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[PhillyKev 0]

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That is, why not use the low wage or unskilled job as it should be used - as a stepping stone or a supplement.

Some people just don't have the means to go beyond a skilled job. They shouldn't have the ability to support themselves? What about the elderly?

[billvon 3,071]

>So when everyone has a MS degree, who is going to collect the
>garbage and clean the sewers?

The same people who power the pumps that transport water to the cities, and the same people who provide the power to row ships across the ocean. The same people who spot-weld and paint car chassis, and who add up long columns of numbers to balance a bank's books.

History has shown that we steadily replace things like galley slaves, miners, spot-welders etc with machines. A robotic truck picks up my garbage, and our sewers are inspected remotely by an operator in an air-conditioned booth. If enough people have engineering degrees, eventually all cities will have them.

And if everyone has an MS in engineering? It's gonna be very easy to design all those machines. If they decide to get an MS in ancient Greek art? No problem; that robotic garbage truck still needs a driver.

[PhillyKev 0]

Bill...lets take your examples to their logical conclusion. Eventually everything will be automated, or at least most things. When that happens, and workers are no longer necessary how will people earn money?

[billvon 3,071]

>When that happens, and workers are no longer necessary how will
>people earn money?

Art. Music. Design. Engineering. Teaching. Research. All the things machines can't do well.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Art. Music. Design. Engineering. Teaching. Research.

I can't do them well either....what do I do?

[billvon 3,071]

>I can't do them well either....what do I do?

Whatever you want, really. Skydive full time. Restore old cars. Drink heavily and have your family support you. It's the natural progression of things - gradually machines have eliminated most of the manual labor that used to take 99% of a person's time.

[Nightingale 0]

learn?