If a worker strikes, should he lose his job?

[rehmwa 2]

No commuting, that was specious, but an influx of good workers into Bozeman may eventually bring business to that area so all of them can eventually enjoy a higher standard of living.

While subsidizing the living expenses of people in an overpriced, overcrowded NYC will just make things worse.

The best thing in the world for that dish washer might just be his decision to leave a dead end job in an economically dead town.

If you find ways to subsidize his life, you are doing more damage than help. But at least you have the best intentions while you ruin life after life after life.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 3,071]

>So, in places where it's more expensive to live, low paying menial
> jobs don't need to be done? That commute from Bozeman to NYC
> to wash dishes is going to eat into that pay check a bit.

So would you be in favor of a law that makes minimum wage in NYC $60 an hour, if that's what it takes to be able to afford an apartment in a moderately nice part of town? (which is about what it would have to be.) What does that do to all the small businesses in NYC who can barely make it as it is?

People should take jobs if they want them. If they feel the company isn't paying enough, they shouldn't take them. If they want to work in NYC and make $150,000 a year, great. If they want to work in NYC and are fine with a job that pays $20,000 a year, that's fine too - but they'll probably need half a dozen roommates. Whether they do that is, of course, up to them as well. Who are you to say they should not be allowed to do that?

[rehmwa 2]

I seem to be in agreement with you a lot today. I checked my temperature - it's fine. Blood alcohol content? that's fine, actually too low. But my vision is a little bleary, maybe I have some pressure on my brain. I better get some rest.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Who are you to say they should not be allowed to do that?

Where did I say they shouldn't be allowed to do that. You're the one saying that people shouldn't be allowed to get decent wages unless they go to school or move.

Quote

People should take jobs if they want them.

Lots of people want jobs but can't get them. And lots of people take jobs that don't pay them enough to live because that is all that they can find. Who are you to say that they shouldn't be allowed to use collective bargaining to improve their lot in life?

[billvon 3,071]

>Where did I say they shouldn't be allowed to do that.

Mandating a high minimum wage would remove their choice to get a $20,000 a year job in NYC. It's simple economics that a company can afford one $60,000 a year dishwasher or three $20,000 year dishwashers. What do you say to the other two dishwashers?

>Lots of people want jobs but can't get them. And lots of people take
> jobs that don't pay them enough to live because that is all that they
> can find.

Agreed.

> Who are you to say that they shouldn't be allowed to use collective
> bargaining to improve their lot in life?

I didn't say they couldn't. Everyone wants a higher paying job. Good ways to get that include going to school, quitting lousy jobs and being really good at what you do. Bad ways include refusing to work and expecting a company to pay you for doing nothing.

[PhillyKev 0]

Since it's been pointed out that unionized workers make mroe than their non-union counter parts, I think you'd have to include that as a good way as well.

No one gets paid when they are on strike. Companies aren't paying strikers.

The original question was should a striking worker lose his job? And I'll answer it this way...

Can they be legally fired? Sure, at least here where it's work at will, not right to work (which I think is a better system). I think we agree there.

Is there anything wrong with other union members showing support for them and coming together to assist the worker in their dispute with employment? No. You seem to not agree with that and say that instead they should get an education or quit their job. Who are you to dictate what remedies they should be permitted?

[billvon 3,071]

>No. You seem to not agree with that and say that instead they
> should get an education or quit their job. Who are you to dictate
> what remedies they should be permitted?

No dictating involved. It's my opinion; no one consults me before they go on strike. But in any case I think they can do whatever they want. Strike, quit their job, heck even decide to stay at home and watch TV. That's up to them. The results of their actions are too.

[Lindsey 0]

Kids in college and other young adults often make it okay on minimum wage jobs because they share living expenses with others and don't tend to have as many debts. If one does not do the necessary things to move on from that job, that person cannot expect his/her situation to improve. I believe people can make it okay on minimum wage in the above context for example, but they can't expect to have their own place, support a family, drive a nice car, live in a nice section of town, and save for retirement. For people to have that expectation is just poor planning IMHO.

Peace~
Lindsey

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[chopchop 0]

IMHO Unions promote mediocrity..

You don't have to care, work hard, or be especially skilled to get and hold a union job. And the union jobs pay higher and have better benefits than most similar non-union jobs for people of the same skill level. Unions had their place.. once. Now they are helping to fuck up America's economy as our goods cost more to pay for the union slugs producing them. Any questions?


okay.. back to my usual non-serious posting in the bonfire..

chopchop
gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking..

Lotsa Pictures

[skyjunior 0]

I have been a union electrician for 27 years. I have been a forman for about 20 of those 27 years. I work my balls off. I work in the rain, the cold, the heat, the dirt and whatever else it takes to get the job done. I am proud of the training that I have and the additional schooling that has been afforded me to be a top electrician who can hold his on with anyone else, union or non-union.
It seens to me that my union contract allows me to bargin with our contractors for a fair wage and benefits. United we bargin and diveded we beg. It seems that doctors contract with hospital for their services. CEO's. CFO's and board of dirctors contract for their service's. On and on and on. Well our local has a group of tradesman who have banded together to contract for our service's. Their is strength in unity. In our area the non-union contractors charge the customer the same rate as union contractors do or maybe a little less. But they pay their employees less than half what we get paid. As a union we have barginned for some of that profit. I have been around non-union construction sites where the workers are treated like crap, like so much disposable junk. Are all union workers perfect employees, hell no. But if they are not working out fire them. It can be done, I have done it about 10 times over the years. Is it hard to do, hell yes, and it should be. Taking a persons job from them should not be easy. I have had to have my ducks in a row and all of my teminations have stuck. I know I am thankful for my union. We have a contract that stipulates our working hours and what we are required to do. No where in that contract does it say to work slow or only do so much work. We have to be competitve and productive are we wont have jobs. I tell all my contractors that I work for that I want to make them as much money as I can, because if I make them money I will stay working. I have never been laid off and never been fired. every contractor I have worked for has said they would hire me again and I am welcome back. And I am a union man.

PLEASE REMEMB

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

Or if you didn't finish high school because you were raised in the ghetto and had to get a job at 13 so you could eat.

EVERY SINGLE PERSON who is in school qualifies for federal stafford loans. Period. The loans are more than enough to cover full time attendance at any state school. That person, once they turned 18, could apply for a loan, attend school in the evenings, and work at their regular job during the day. Many people do that. It isn't easy. I know. I'm a student myself with a full time job. But it can be done.

[chopchop 0]

Quote

I I work my balls off. I work in the rain, the cold, the heat, the dirt and whatever else it takes to get the job done. I am proud of the training that I have and the additional schooling that has been afforded me to be a top electrician who can hold his on with anyone else, union or non-union. every contractor I have worked for has said they would hire me again and I am welcome back. And I am a union man.

Congratulations on being an exception to the rule..

However, as far as it being hard to fire someone.. it should not be.. if they suck, they should be canned without alot of effort.. Why should an employer have to cover their ass with a bunch of paperwork just to stop paying someone for wasting their time and screwing up their job?

Please.. one good reason..

Or are you also quite giving with your hard-earned cash that you would willingly continue to pay it while building a case for not having to any more.. it's pure fricking injustice that anyone should have to.

chopchop
gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking..

Lotsa Pictures

[b1jercat 0]

You don't have to care, work hard, or be especially skilled to get and hold a union job


Dude you need a reality check. I don't know which union your talking about, it isn't mine. I spent 5 years and 12000 hours to get my journeyman rateing
and spend 25 to 60 hours a year on my own time to keep and maintain my state licends.

The sparky in the post above me summed it up pretty good. We wouldn't exist if didn't do it better than the rat bastards out there, they can thank us for keeping their wages up at the same time, lord knows there are enough people who can be convinced to work for nothing.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Unions had their place.. once. Now they are helping to fuck up America's economy as our goods cost more to pay for the union slugs producing them. Any questions?


Unions have their place today also, for example lets look at Walmart. Notoirous for screwing their employees. Common Walmart pratice is to limit their employees to less than 40 hours a week, so they don't have to provide benefits, these people have to turn to public assitance for health benefits. As a tax payer I end up picking up the slack for Walmart. Now who is the slug here?
I'd like to see all the Walmart employees go Union and force those ass holes to pay a family wage, and don't tell me they can't afford it.

Hello, people earning a decent wage is good for the economy.


rant off

[wmw999 2,537]

It should be somewhat hard to fire someone after a probationary period. Not all bosses are fair -- they get pissed at you for disagreeing, and they want to fire you.

They inherit you from a previous boss and just don't like you, or your race, or your gender, or your nationality, or whatever.

Of course it happens.

It shouldn't be nigh onto impossible, either. We used to have someone incompetent where I worked; it took over a year to fire him. Our workplace suffered, but it suffered less than it would with the ability to fire on a whim.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skyjunior 0]

Where I work I am not an exception to the rule. Of course the bell shaped curve still exists and the bottom 10 percent are worthless and of course they do not work to much. Likewise there is a bell shaped curve for owners and management also, and they don't make it either. As for as making it difficult to fire someone, I believe that should be the case. I may be an outstanding electrician...timely, productive, team player and knowledgeable. But I don't always make everyone happy. I dont think I should be fired because an owner, engineer, or customer to asks me to do an unsafe or shoddy installation. Long after the price of the install is forgotten the quality will stay. If I can not do a quality job in a timely manner I will not be working for to long. I don't think I should be fired because the boss dosen't like my political views or because I skydive { it's to dangerous} or I ride motorcycles. I don't think I should lose my job because the boss had a tough nite and comes in with a hangover or has troube with their marriage and wants to take it out on me, and I won't take it. I should be fired if I am not qualifed, productive, a slacker or a troublemaker. I have seen many young or new engineers or project managers with their bigtime college degree's come on the job and try and be the bigshots because they think they can. By the way no slam on college degree's as I have an undergraduate degree in industrial management and a Master's in business. I do not think a person should be fired in heat of an argument or discussion. I think if one wants to take a persons job that it should be thought out and methodical, that there should be documetation and maybe some consultation. In my business I can build a case in less than a day or it may take a few weeks, but in the end if you are screwing up your gone. I have worked for forman I just could not get a long with and have had tradesman work for me I could not get along with. But transfer that individual or have been transfered to another job and everything is roses. Now I will tell you a story that happened to me. I was sent to a job on January 5th this year. After looking the job over I knew that it really required two workers.But I also knew that if I called for another worker it would create a rukas at the office because they thought it was an easy job and just required one man. Well long story short, I fell and broke my back. I am out of work for six month's or longer. If I would have trusted my experience and instincts this would not have happened. I should have refused the job and let my Business Agent fight for me, but I did not. My fault. But I get a check from my local every week. About one tenth of what I normally make. But with workers comp, the local check and donations from my fellow union brothers and sisters, I will make it and not lose my house or car. Again, I am proud to be a union member and I would be an outstanding employee no matter if I was in a union or not, but thankfully I am.

PLEASE REMEMB

[Paige 0]

Doesn't really matter what we think. That is what employers have done to get back at the Unions and all the crap they pull. that's just the way it is.

Tunnel Pink Mafia Delegate
www.TunnelPinkMafia.com

[b1jercat 0]

Quote

It should be somewhat hard to fire someone after a probationary period. Not all bosses are fair -- they get pissed at you for disagreeing, and they want to fire you.

They inherit you from a previous boss and just don't like you, or your race, or your gender, or your nationality, or whatever.

Of course it happens.

It shouldn't be nigh onto impossible, either. We used to have someone incompetent where I worked; it took over a year to fire him. Our workplace suffered, but it suffered less than it would with the ability to fire on a whim.

Wendy W.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Wendy was this a union or non-union job?

I should say in the construction industrie, fireing on a whim is normal, (one man layoff) the guy either cuts it or he doesn't. And a lot of employers shop their employees, offer a weeks worth of work to check you out.

blues

jerry

[wmw999 2,537]

It was a professional-level job; definitely non-union. We have a 6-month period to terminate at will, but because of a company merger, we missed it with him.

But, again, we suffered less in the long run by giving him his own rope to hang himself with. Most people, when handed that rope, realize it's the sign of a problem, and get working.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

Here's the other version

Q - If a worker strikes, should he lose his job?

A - Yes, at our company we don't hit, striking another is grounds for immediate dismissal.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

EVERY SINGLE PERSON who is in school qualifies for federal stafford loans. Period. The loans are more than enough to cover full time attendance at any state school.

What??? Stafford load is capped at $6,625 for first year students.

Penn State satellite campus first year tuition is $9,621 for PA residents. Not to mention:

ESTIMATED room and meal expenses: $6,200
ESTIMATED expenses for books and supplies: $1,100
ESTIMATED expenses for travel and personal supplies: $1,200-2,400

To make up the difference between the costs and what you get from the loan, working at minimum wage you would have to work 2,232 hours a year. That's 48 hours short of a full time job, 40 hours a week for a full year.

[Nightingale 0]

$6,625 will cover part-time school, leaving plenty of time for work at whatever job they happen to have.

[PhillyKev 0]

Ok...so they go to school part time. Meaning it'll be 8 years they are at theat minimum wage job. Let's say they work 30 hours a week while they're going to school. That's a whopping $8000 a year they're making....yeah, that's liveable.

[Nightingale 0]

I work 40 hours a week, commute 2 hours every day (total of 50 hours per week devoted to work) and still find time to attend graduate school full time. I'm not saying its easy, but if one is motivated, it can be done

[PhillyKev 0]

And you're making minimum wage? The point was that minimum wage is not a liveable income and doesn't afford you the ability to go to school. Someone making minimum wage and supporting themselves is most likely working 2 minimum wage jobs at 80 hours a week.

Can you honestly say that you could work 40 hours a week making $5.15 an hour, support yourself, and go to school full time?

[Nightingale 0]

I financed my undergraduate (and graduate) school myself. No help from parents. They were paying for my mom's school at the time, as well as my brother's private high school. I did it through federal and private loans, as well as grants and scholarships. I worked 10 hours a week tutoring elementary kids and made $20 an hour doing it. Sure, I finished school with a boatload of loans to repay, but I also finished with the means to get a job that would enable me to repay them while maintaining a decent standard of living for myself.