rehmwa 2 #26 April 9, 2004 QuoteSo you agree that he should be able to charge $10 for a black or hispanic, but $12 for orientals, and $18 for white - "Or you should go jump somewhere else" Yep, and I would. We are not talking about putting the price up for certain groups, we are talking about price reductions for certain groups. I hold that the DZO has the right to fix whatever price structure he wishes, our right as consumers is whether or not provide him with our business, it really is that simple. I don't see this as contentious. We, as consumers, can decide what's right and wrong and speak by not patronizing a business that does this type of thing. They'll get corrected due to market forces or go out of business. The point here is we don't need the government to interfere in such a blatantly wrong decision by the business owner. Mac - so you defend the business owner's right to make bad policy (in the racist example). No probs. So maybe the question you should answer is -whether you think the situation when it's not race, but gender - Knowing that the owner can do whatever he wants, do you personally think it's fair? I don't think it's fair, but I think the owner can do what he wants with HIS business ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #27 April 9, 2004 Quote I don't see this as contentious. We, as consumers, can decide what's right and wrong and speak by not patronizing a business that does this type of thing. They'll get corrected due to market forces or go out of business. What if it's your only option w/o giving up the sport? Like location and availability.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #28 April 9, 2004 No, not really like that at all, as far as I can gather a bake sale is not really a regular business, like a DZ. The bakers probably won't have their livelihoods threatened by lack of cookie sales to whichever groups they choose to discriminate against. And the organisers of that particular bake sale deliberately went out to prove some sort of point. "While the bake sale raised eyebrows about its political message, it was a commercial failure. The group only sold about $1.50 worth of cookies. " Some of the gals of over in the Seat Down forum were likening the reduction in jump price for ladies to similar evenings in bars etc. I don't see anything offensive about that either. Its marketing, not bigotry, sexism whatever. The DZO was probably trying to encourage more ladies to jump at his DZ, maybe retain some of their custom, what the hell is wrong with that?-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #29 April 9, 2004 QuoteWhat if it's your only option w/o giving up the sport? Like location and availability. Tough question, but society doesn't owe us a "right" to be able to do the leisure activity of our choice. (I have a local DZ which is the only winter jumping location - but they smoke in the hangar. So I don't take my business there anymore and essentially have to "quit" now in the winter months. And I'm a serious jumping addict. I think their policy is a bad choice, but it's their business and they'll survive or not based on their choices. I don't have the right to change their policy just so I can jump.) But maybe the Dems will go out and work on that right away. Really, if the behavior of a business is repellent, then it's time to do a start up as a competitor with better policy. Instead of quitting the sport. Supply and Demand. (This is a tough one for me, I believe we interfere WAY too much with businesses, but the racial example is a great one for showing that conflict where we WANT to interfere even though market forces will fix the issue in a more productive way) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #30 April 9, 2004 "I don't think it's fair, but I think the owner can do what he wants with HIS business" Yep, Bill, thats about it. And if you don't like the way he sells his goods/services, take your business elsewhere. Thats what I call affirmative action. Consumer power. Operating a DZ is a business, just like operating a bar or a night club. "What if it's your only option w/o giving up the sport? Like location and availability." Its unlikely, lets try and keep it real, if its the only DZ around they wouldn't have to use such measures to draw female jumpers, they'd have more or less a captive market.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #31 April 9, 2004 QuoteIts (sic) marketing, not bigotry, sexism whatever. It is bigotry and sexism. It is ALSO marketing. The point is - which is more important to the customers and which is more important to the business owner? That will show whether it's a worthwhile marketing gimmic or not. Unless the government gets involved. But ususally causes more harm than good. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #32 April 9, 2004 Perhaps we could put the men and the women on different planes. Equal planes, they would go to the same altitude and everything... separate, but equal. That would be better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #33 April 9, 2004 I think we're on the same page, Bill. I guess it is bigotry and sexism, its just not that malicious. Have fun guys, I'm splitting out and taking the missus away for a nice easter break. Have a good Easter, stay safe. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nbblood 0 #34 April 9, 2004 QuoteYou mean like this? Yes, very similar to this......where the consumer can decide to walk away and not give his/her patronage to the business based on the practices. QuoteI hold that the DZO has the right to fix whatever price structure he wishes, our right as consumers is whether or not provide him with our business, it really is that simple. Yep, it really is. QuoteGender violence, favoritism in child custody, and people of both genders who want everyone else to fit into their preconceptions are a bigger problem. That's right. Well said, Wendy. QuoteIt is bigotry and sexism. It is ALSO marketing. The point is - which is more important to the customers and which is more important to the business owner? That will show whether it's a worthwhile marketing gimmic or not. And there's the bottom line. Blues, NathanBlues, Nathan If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #35 April 9, 2004 Quote(This is a tough one for me, I believe we interfere WAY too much with businesses, but the racial example is a great one for showing that conflict where we WANT to interfere even though market forces will fix the issue in a more productive way) Ask any southern black person in their fifties or older if "market forces will fix the issue in a more productive way". . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #36 April 9, 2004 Quote *** It is bigotry and sexism. It is ALSO marketing. The point is - which is more important to the customers and which is more important to the business owner? That will show whether it's a worthwhile marketing gimmic or not. And there's the bottom line. I generally do not refer to it as discrimination unless it does discriminates against me. Then it is "little" discrimination and therefore acceptable. Ladies night is ok, I like drunk women in bars. Sorry about the salaries girls. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #37 April 9, 2004 QuoteAsk any southern black person in their fifties or older if "market forces will fix the issue in a more productive way". Instead, let's look at today and not live in the past. I'll ask you a question: If a dropzone advertised $10 for white people and $14 for black people, do you think we'd need government interference to fix that issue? Or do you think that most of us wouldn't give our business to that DZ? I wouldn't go there. Most all the jumpers I know wouldn't go there, except to complain - but then they wouldn't jump. Market forces would definitely work in this situation as that DZ owner would change his policy or quickly go out of business. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #38 April 9, 2004 QuoteQuoteAsk any southern black person in their fifties or older if "market forces will fix the issue in a more productive way". Instead, let's look at today and not live in the past. I'll ask you a question: If a dropzone advertised $10 for white people and $14 for black people, do you think we'd need government interference to fix that issue? Or do you think that most of us wouldn't give our business to that DZ? I wouldn't go there. Most all the jumpers I know wouldn't go there, except to complain - but then they wouldn't jump. Market forces would definitely work in this situation as that DZ owner would change his policy or quickly go out of business. At least someone sees the relation there. That is exactly my point. I would expect that most white people would not jump there because they would take a stand against discrimination. If this were any other type of discrimination, it would not be accpetable. So, why then is it acceptable to discriminate by gender? Why do only a handful of female jumpers see this as discrimination? Can they not get past the fact that THEY are the ones getting the better deal, and so it is not discrimination? And, how can a certain female organization of jumpers overlook sexual discrimination as if there is nothing wrong with it? Would they still be ok with it if dropzones were charging women more? I SERIOUSLY doubt that. I think it is funny that some women voted in the poll that they'd be ok with men got the better discount. I don't believe that for one second. I guess there is no point in arguing this point anymore. I feel it is discrimination. A few other intelligent women on this board feel the same way. Others are a lost cause i'd suppose. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #39 April 9, 2004 QuoteI'll ask you a question: If a dropzone advertised $10 for white people and $14 for black people, do you think we'd need government interference to fix that issue? Or do you think that most of us wouldn't give our business to that DZ? I think both. Yes, I think we as a society have come a long way in matters of racial togetherness, and so the problem would likely "fix itself", but we ain't all the way there yet. I'll bet there is STILL a DZ somewhere in our nation that would actually thrive if it discriminated against blacks. Would you allow it to continue? How about a country club. What if the white kids in a small town wanted to have a private prom, excluding non-whites. Would you support that? QuoteI wouldn't go there. Me either, and I would hope the govt would step in and end it. And then, after the govt ended it, I still wouldn't go there knowing the DZO was such a loser. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #40 April 9, 2004 QuoteI feel it is discrimination. A few other intelligent women on this board feel the same way. And a few other intelligent women on this board disagree with you. Ok well, actually I will agree that it IS discrimination according to the dictionary definition (as are MANY acceptable things going on in this world)... I just don't agree that it's a bad thing. (The word "discriminate" does not always imply a negative action.) I do think it's good that you started this discussion though... because it is definitely a subject worth thinking about... and because you brought it up I have given it a lot of thought... but my opinion still stands that this dz is not doing anything morally wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #41 April 9, 2004 QuoteAnd a few other intelligent women on this board disagree with you. Ok well, actually I will agree that it IS discrimination according to the dictionary definition (as are MANY acceptable things going on in this world)... I just don't agree that it's a bad thing. (The word "discriminate" does not always imply a negative action.) Absolutely. All I ask is that people question what they are taught to believe is ok or not ok. Anyone who has done that is absolutely intelligent. Most certainly this is discrimination by definition, the question is whether people feel it is ok. Some people seem to not even see that it is discrimination, though. QuoteI do think it's good that you started this discussion though... because it is definitely a subject worth thinking about... and because you brought it up I have given it a lot of thought... but my opinion still stands that this dz is not doing anything morally wrong. I am glad that you gave thought to it before simply accepting that it must be ok if they can do it and since we are getting the better deal. Take care:) Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nbblood 0 #42 April 10, 2004 QuoteI guess there is no point in arguing this point anymore. I feel it is discrimination. A few other intelligent women on this board feel the same way. Others are a lost cause i'd suppose. Ah, so people are only intelligent when they agree with you. I'm getting a clearer picture now. And what about the "intelligent" men that agree with you?? Seems you've left them out. Hhhmmm......interesting. Whatever. Blues, NathanBlues, Nathan If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michele 1 #43 April 10, 2004 QuoteI feel it is discrimination. A few other intelligent women on this board feel the same way. Others are a lost cause i'd suppose. Angela, I'm a reasonable, intelligent woman. I don't happen to agree with you. Why does that make me a lost cause? Furthermore, I totally respect your right to choose where you spend your jump money. I will spend mine where I choose to, as well. Does this again make me a lost cause? Making a blanket statement like that destroys your ability to be taken seriously, from at least my perspective. How about making your stand with your dollars, and letting me make mine? For example, I don't wear "brand name" clothes, and nothing from Ambercrombie and Fitch. I see no value in supporting a company with my money that has clearly demonstrated a racial bias. You may choose to support A&F by wearing their name, or buying their clothes. That doesn't make you a lost cause, it simply means you've chosen differently. Anyway, enough from me. Have a good weekend! Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #44 September 7, 2015 Just curious . . . do DZs still do Ladies Night type specials? How fun is it to look back on your old comments to see if you have grown, or degressed into cavemanship. I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,456 #45 September 8, 2015 I'm just bemused, or maybe depressed, by how little variety there is on dz.com any more. It's harder to find a variety of opinions on FB; it's way more about self-selected subgroups, and purely sequential realtime conversations. An well; I guess that means I'm a dinosaur Wendy P. There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 221 #46 September 8, 2015 wmw999 I'm just bemused, or maybe depressed, by how little variety there is on dz.com any more. It's harder to find a variety of opinions on FB; it's way more about self-selected subgroups, and purely sequential realtime conversations. An well; I guess that means I'm a dinosaur Wendy P. It was supposed to fun - not bemusing.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #47 September 8, 2015 wmw999I'm just bemused, or maybe depressed, by how little variety there is on dz.com any more. It's harder to find a variety of opinions on FB; it's way more about self-selected subgroups, and purely sequential realtime conversations. I admit I've largely become a broken record of myself in the "core topic" threads. Most of the people worth honing your opinions against have been here a while and, of course, those topics don't fundamentally change much. The threads about politicians are too troll-tastic for my liking and there are a lot of those lately it seems. I tried spinning off a meta-discussion about people posting here, but that didn't really go anywhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
