so sad and powerful

[rehmwa 2]

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Or the ones that have a deal for you to supply something to them? Only the Countries that had something to gain from iraq's then dictator were in conflict with the us - mostly because they were owed goods services or cash - they knew that thier contracts would be no good if they did the right thing.

Don't forget the good and noble Oil for Food program. Thi$ effort $pent time and effort to $ervice and hou$e the $ick and poor in Iraq. All the UN got for it wa$ mea$ly money and riche$ for the $taff. Won't somebody please think of the children!!

(It's funny how our admin was accused of it being all about Oil - when it really was all about Oil for the vetoing nations and the puppet UN leadership)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Ron 10]

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Then why aren't you invading Saudi Arabia?

While I personally think they are shaky bastards.
(And turned down a free paid skydiving trip to go there cause of it)

We don't have them saying "Death to the USA"..In fact they made some really nice comercials saying sorry about the buildings after 9-11...

Some of them do (Think OBL) but the Saudi GOVERNMET does not support them. (And OBL family has "abandoned" him).

I think they are full of shit, but I have no proof they are plotting to kill us. If we did have proof, or they ignored UN resolutions...I'd say take them out.

But they have not. Iraq did.

Iraq didn't follow UN resolutions.
Iraq supported terroists openly.
Iraq used WMD's.
Iraq tourtured people.

I don't see Saudi doing these things in the open.

The Saudi government is not yelling death to America while having had a stockpile of WMD's, and openly giving money to terror networks. All the time jerking the chain of the UN, and ignoring the UN resolution....Oh yeah they also didn't go off and invade another country 10 years ago.

As Arab countries go...Saudi plays nice....At least on the surface.

Thats why.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,998]

>While I personally think they are shaky bastards.
(And turned down a free paid skydiving trip to go there cause of it)

>We don't have them saying "Death to the USA"..


True, they have better spin control than Iraq did. From Index:
---------------------------
Saudi authorities confiscated videotapes and a laptop computer from Bob Arnot, a reporter for the U.S. channel MSNBC, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists.

On 21 April, Arnot was taken off a flight to Dubai, when officials demanded video footage that had been shot during his assignment in Saudi Arabia, which the journalist undertook with Saudi government permission.

After Arnot declined to surrender his footage, officials confiscated 18 videotapes and his laptop computer. Arnot and the other passengers were delayed for five hours before being allowed to continue.

The journalist had been working on several potentially sensitive stories, including one in which Saudi schoolboys expressed anti-American sentiments.

Officials at the school had asked Arnot to hand over the tapes after those interviews, but the journalist refused.
---------------------------

>In fact they made some really nice comercials saying sorry about the
>buildings after 9-11...

Ah, that explains it. Americans do love their TV's.

>I think they are full of shit, but I have no proof they are plotting to
>kill us. If we did have proof, or they ignored UN resolutions...I'd say
> take them out.

Israel has ignored literally dozens of UN resolutions. When are we taking them out?

>Iraq didn't follow UN resolutions.

Turns out they _did_ follow the biggest one - the one that required them to destroy all their WMD's and cooperate with inspections.

>Iraq supported terroists openly.

So did we. We supported the Mujahideen, the Contras, and Saddam Hussein himself.

>Iraq used WMD's.

So have we.

>Iraq tourtured people.

So do our allies in "the war on terror."

>As Arab countries go...Saudi plays nice....At least on the surface.

And as we all know, it is appearances that are the most important.

[Jimbo 0]

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Iraq had no capability to strike within the US,

One would have thought that Afghanistan had no capability to strike within the US either. Guess what? They did.

Just to save you the trouble -- Afghanistan knowingly harbored AQ, they're just as responsible as anyone else for the WTC and Pentagon attacks, as well as the downed aircraft in PA.

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other than to support a terrorist group to do it from within.

The WORLD already knows that SH supported terrorism against Israel. Why should we believe that he wouldn't support it against the US?

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I don't think that Iraq was a direct threat to the US.

I'll bet that before 9/11 that you didn't think AQ was a direct threat to the US either.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[Darius11 12]

As they say assuming makes an Ass of........I am sure you know the rest.

First I am a citizen of Iran.
I have lived threw one war at that time Sadam was the US friend, and when he used WMD on Iranians no one cared that’s why I hate politics and probably why I don’t understand them. I am too honest for that.

Also in Iran you don't get a choice to join. If your a male and 18 you go. Also in high school you go every year. They only take you for a few days for the boot camp part but you learn all year. It is part of the curriculum.
I also served until I sold some stocks I had bought and bought my way out. Last thing I would consider honorable for my self was to die for a government that I hated.

You must be confused the reason or the main reason we went in to Iraq was because of WMD are you denying that?
I remember the speeches very well. I remember the president saying he has WMD and he will have nuclear capabilities soon.
That is the reason we went in there.
There was no WMD found. So therefore that was a mistake.

If you recall the UN wanted to wait and give the inspectors a chance. The US government is the one who insisted that we were all in danger and we need to act now. Are you denying that?

My logic is not hard to understand.
If the president would have said we are going inn because of the UN resolution it would be different story.
First I am not sure if he would have had the support he had for the war. I don't like to be lied to.
I have never been a blind follower and will never become one.

And as for your question have I served any one but my self.
I don't need to go in too the details of my life Ron there is many ways to help your fellow man/women the only way is not with a gun. When you say that I don’t show respect for a soldier I think your wrong. I have nothing but respect for all soldiers. That is why I ask why. I think I would do them no honor if I just accepted a sorry excuse as a reason.

On 9-11 I filled out my application with the FBI to see if there was any thing I could do to help.
And when it comes to 9-11 there is no doubt in my mind that the ones responsible should pay.

The War on terror yes go for it but the war in Iraq however is a mistake.
They are not the same war.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Skyrad 0]

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In war, people die. Sometimes, those casualties are civilians. It's always been that way. Technology, as good as we've made it, isn't perfect and cannot prevent that.

This is true, but unfortunatly technology is only as precise as the hands that control it. I think its also worth mentioning that people from 33 countries died in the WTC, including hundreds from the UK.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

'The IRA kept the English Army busy for years.'

True, we were stupid and didn't realise that to defeat the IRA it would have been perfectly acceptable to use Lynx attack hellicopters to blow the falls road to pieces and tanks and artillary to take out terrorist bases in residential areas. If we'd have done that then no doubt we would have had hundered's of dead terrorists too. (Sure most of them would have been women and children but hey, no doubt they were all terrorists too)

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Ron 10]

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True, they have better spin control than Iraq did. From Index:

Yeah like you said they are better at lying.

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Ah, that explains it. Americans do love their TV's.

Well they also act nice in all other areas as well...As opposed to SH saying we would all burn.

Quote

Israel has ignored literally dozens of UN resolutions. When are we taking them out?

Did the UN vote to use force on them? I didn't see that one.

Quote

Turns out they _did_ follow the biggest one - the one that required them to destroy all their WMD's and cooperate with inspections.

while we didn't find any...and there may not even be any. That does not mean they complied. It just means they don't have them now. The way everything works over there they could really just be "lost". You and they had no proof of them getting rid of them..And if they did get rid of them how? Did they sell them?

And I would not say the were co-operating. Has even said they were not..Then when we said we were going to get them...Blix said they were starting to....Not exaclty co-operating.

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So did we. We supported the Mujahideen, the Contras, and Saddam Hussein himself.

Yep, I guess someone should invade us huh?

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>Iraq used WMD's.

So have we.

Yep, and I still think that was OK since we were in a war and it saved at lowball guesses over half a million men for the deaths of 270,000 ememy. We were already targeting civilians with Napalm.

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>Iraq tourtured people.

So do our allies in "the war on terror."

While I don't agree it's not my job to stop it.

Quote

>As Arab countries go...Saudi plays nice....At least on the surface.

And as we all know, it is appearances that are the most important.

Unfortunatly...yes. Just like everything else peole don't think, they just follow polls.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Skyrad 0]

Darrius, don't worry. If that happens pm Kennedy, I'm sure between him and JohnRich they can find a good attorney thats on the NRAs books and stop them from kicking down your door and make sure no one disarms you mate

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Darius11 12]

Thats is a good idea

Thanks bro

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Ron 10]

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First I am a citizen of Iran.
I have lived threw one war at that time Sadam was the US friend, and when he used WMD on Iranians no one cared that’s why I hate politics and probably why I don’t understand them. I am too honest for that.

Yet here you are in the US?

Quote

Also in Iran you don't get a choice to join. If your a male and 18 you go. Also in high school you go every year. They only take you for a few days for the boot camp part but you learn all year. It is part of the curriculum.
I also served until I sold some stocks I had bought and bought my way out. Last thing I would consider honorable for my self was to die for a government that I hated.

so you were forced to join, and left as soon as you could.

You still never answered if you have ever given of ourself for something greater.

Quote

You must be confused the reason or the main reason we went in to Iraq was because of WMD are you denying that?
I remember the speeches very well. I remember the president saying he has WMD and he will have nuclear capabilities soon.
That is the reason we went in there.
There was no WMD found. So therefore that was a mistake.

Hell the UN also thought he had them Congress and the Prez all thought he had them...Hell he SAID he had them.

So the intel was bad..That sucks and makes us look bad. But he was causing issues in that region with acts like paying for suicide bombers.

Quote

If you recall the UN wanted to wait and give the inspectors a chance. The US government is the one who insisted that we were all in danger and we need to act now. Are you denying that?

The UN didn't want to actually DO anything. SH was a threat from the first war, and we should have finished it them. Intel said he was a threat...The intel could have been wrong. But he was supporting terrorism. And we were in a war on terror.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

Quote

True, we were stupid and didn't realise that to defeat the IRA it would have been perfectly acceptable to use Lynx attack hellicopters to blow the falls road to pieces and tanks and artillary to take out terrorist bases in residential areas. If we'd have done that then no doubt we would have had hundered's of dead terrorists too. (Sure most of them would have been women and children but hey, no doubt they were all terrorists too)

A person who supports my ememy is my ememy.

But there is a BIG difference between an invasion, and dealing with terror cells in your back yard.

The Israelis have just started that tactic....Seems like when you get desperate, you have to do desperate things.

Simple FACT. If SH had complied...No problem.

If the terrorist wanted to live in peace..we would let them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[GravityGirl 0]

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Grow up. War means soldiers and some civilians will die. Its not a pissing contest. As long as more enemy soldiers die then american things are going well.

Grow up?????? Growing up doesn't mean growing cold, or numb.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Darius11 12]

Quote

Yet here you are in the US?

Yes the reason I am in the US is that I can voice my opinion with out getting killed. Many times even on DZ.com I have mentioned that I love this country and would die to protect it.

Quote

so you were forced to join, and left as soon as you could.

You got it. I don't like to die to make other people rich. I also don't like to die for things I don't believe in.
The Iranian government is not known for democracy

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You still never answered if you have ever given of ourself for something greater.

You must have missed the part or maybe I didn't make it clear enough. so maybe a simple YES will do.

Quote

Hell the UN also thought he had them Congress and the Prez all thought he had them...Hell he SAID he had them.

So the intel was bad..That sucks and makes us look bad. But he was causing issues in that region with acts like paying for suicide bombers.

Maybe I don't remember that part, but as I recall the UN wanted to try to find something before they started to shoot. Paying for suicide bombers if true
has nothing to do with the US war.
We have helped Israel enough that they can take care of them self’s, and last I heard there is still no proof that SH supported terror. Lets not get this wrong he is a very very bad man there is no questions of that. The questions is why we went to war.

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The UN didn't want to actually DO anything. SH was a threat from the first war, and we should have finished it them. Intel said he was a threat...The intel could have been wrong. But he was supporting terrorism. And we were in a war on terror

You see thats the copout I am talking about. We all know SH is a bad guy. The point again is why did our government start this war.
The reason given was false. Even the president has said they got bad Intel or whatever. I don't want to hear excuses from the president. He lied to every one knowingly or not. He is the president I don’t want him to point fingers this isn’t high school. He is the commander and chief and he made a mistake.
A big one.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

>Iraq tourtured people.

So do our allies in "the war on terror."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


While I don't agree it's not my job to stop it.

Except when it is Iraq, then all of a sudden it is your job to stop it. Or was it because of WMDs, or was it because he was a bad man, or was it because he was linked to 9/11, which is the excuse-du-jour?

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Grow up?????? Growing up doesn't mean growing cold, or numb.

The older I get the thicker the sweatshirts I wear and my arm goes numb when I lie on it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[crapflinger2000 1]

Quote

Grow up. War means soldiers and some civilians will die. Its not a pissing contest. As long as more enemy soldiers die then american things are going well.

Trying... not... to respond.... argh.

__________________________________________________
What would Vic Mackey do?

[DrunkMonkey 0]

Agreed. I work to defend freedom, not to make rich assholes at Haliburton richer.

We need to pry the White house out of Haliburton's fat greasy fingers...

[storm1977 0]

Darius,

Please explain your analogy about breaking down doors. I am a bit confused, because if you are saying SH was letting everyone in, then you are simply wrong.

SH gave the bare minimum needed to try to apease the UN but according to Hans Blix, more needed to be done.
You can read his January 27th, 2003 report here.
http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/Bx27.htm

Chris

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Skyrad 0]

'The Israelis have just started that tactic....Seems like when you get desperate, you have to do desperate things. '

And America has started using Israils rules of engagement in Iraq. Desperate eh? Interesting.....

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

'The older I get the thicker the sweatshirts I wear and my arm goes numb when I lie on it.'

Then what do you do?? Eh? Feels like someone elses hand then eh? eh?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Ron 10]

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Yes the reason I am in the US is that I can voice my opinion with out getting killed

I an several others that have served this county think that Iraqi's deserve that right as well. Not all of them could leave if they wanted to.

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I have mentioned that I love this country and would die to protect it.

Great.

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We have helped Israel enough that they can take care of them self’s

Now we are trying to help Iraq.

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and last I heard there is still no proof that SH supported terror

He was giving money to the families of suicide bombers...Thats supporting terrorism.

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In the future, Sadam will continue taking steps to neutralize any American initiative. First and foremost, Sadam will try to buy time by feeding the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. He will continue to accomplish this by funding the Palestinian terrorist infrastructure, as he has done by offering $25,000 for families of suicide bombers

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Secretary of Defense Douglas Feith. It was forwarded to the intelligence panel last month in response to bipartisan questions put to him by the Committee’s top Republican and Democratic members, Senators Pat Roberts and Jay Rockefeller, respectively. The memo’s contents reflected years of reporting compiled by U.S. intelligence agencies from various sources.

According to Hayes, fifty individual items (which he infers must be just the tip of the proverbial iceberg, since the bulk of materials seized from Iraqi files have yet to be analyzed) establish that Saddam Hussein collaborated extensively with bin Laden and his ilk in, for example, the following ways:

• Top Iraqi intelligence officials and other trusted representatives of Saddam Hussein met repeatedly with bin Laden and his subordinates. Since Saddam personally insisted that the relationship between the two be kept secret, the contents of their conversations have apparently not yet been discovered. It is a safe bet, though, that operational cooperation was among the topics discussed.

• According to the memo, U.S. intelligence received reports that Iraq provided safe havens, money, weapons and fraudulent Iraqi and Syrian passports to al Qaeda. It also provided training in the manufacture and use of sophisticated explosives. In that connection, bin Laden reportedly specifically requested that “[Brigadier Salim al-Ahmed,] Iraqi intelligence's premier explosives maker – especially skilled in making car bombs – remain with him in Sudan. The Iraqi intelligence chief instructed Salim to remain in Sudan with bin Laden as long as required.”

• A Malaysia-based Iraqi national, Ahmed Hikmat Shakir, reportedly secured a job at the airport in Kuala Lumpur thanks to help from Iraq’s embassy in Malasia. He subsequently facilitated the movement of two of the September 11 hijackers, Khalid al Midhar and Nawaq al Hamzi, through passport control and customs en route to an operational meeting in Kuala Lumpur on January 5, 2000. The memo notes that “One of the men at that al Qaeda operational meeting in the Kuala Lumpur Hotel was Tawfiz al Atash, a top bin Laden lieutenant later identified as the mastermind of the October 12, 2000, attack on the USS Cole.”

• “Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi [a senior al Qaeda operative] said he was told by an al Qaeda associate that he was tasked to travel to Iraq (1998) to establish a relationship with Iraqi intelligence to obtain poisons and gases training. After the USS Cole bombing in 2000, two al Qaeda operatives were sent to Iraq for [Chemical and Biological Weapons] CBW-related training beginning in December 2000. Iraqi intelligence was ‘encouraged’ after the embassy and USS Cole bombings to provide this training.”

• The memo indicates that there were as many as four meetings between the alleged mastermind of the September 11th hijackings, Mohamed Atta, and the former Iraqi intelligence chief in Prague, Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir al Ani. “During one of these meetings, al Ani ordered the Iraqi Intelligence Service [IIS] finance officer to issue Atta funds from IIS financial holdings in the Prague office.”

In short, thanks to a much-maligned Pentagon effort to perform an independent review of existing intelligence on Iraq — undertaken at Secretary Feith’s initiative — it is simply not possible any longer to claim that there is “no evidence” of links between Saddam and al Qaeda. It behooves most especially those who have access to the full classified memo, like Intelligence Committee member Carl Levin, to stop misleading the public on this point for transparently partisan purposes.

The Feith memo should be helpful in one other way, as well. It underscores the validity of the “drain the swamps” strategy President Bush has been pursuing from day one in the war on terror — and the unsuitability to be Commander-in-Chief of those, like General Wesley Clark, who disagree, as he derisively put it Sunday, that “these old states are central to the problem of terrorism.”

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The questions is why we went to war.

We went to war to prtect the US from terror. We believed that he had WMD's and we knew he supported terror. He might not have been able or even willing to use them on us himself, but he would sell them for sure.

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You see thats the copout I am talking about. We all know SH is a bad guy. The point again is why did our government start this war.
The reason given was false. Even the president has said they got bad Intel or whatever

Bad intell makes it wrong, not a false reason.
The President, Congress and the UN all thought he had them. He didn't prove otherwise.

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"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

• Quote

[Darius11 12]

Hi storm

That was in replay to this post by turtle
"Question Darius . . . If you had a bunch of guns hidden in your house that were potentially dangerous to your community, the Police came up, wanting to look around, and you said no you can't come in, and they went and got a warrant - and then you said no, you can't come in - would you not think that they would do it by force? Do you really believe that you would not be arrested?

Now add the fact that you have commited MASS MURDER . . . do you think that the police would be cordial? "

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Ron 10]

Quote

Except when it is Iraq, then all of a sudden it is your job to stop it. Or was it because of WMDs, or was it because he was a bad man, or was it because he was linked to 9/11, which is the excuse-du-jour?

We thought he had WMD's and he didn't comply with the UN resolution. Thats enough for me.

He supported terrorism...Again enough for me.

He was a bad man....Not enough for me. I think a Government has the right to do what it wants with its people as long as the people let it....But as long as we are going in, hell it can't hurt.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Darius11 12]

I think me and you will not agree Ron.

We did not go to War because we want help free the world we went to War because of WMD. if we want to free the world there is many places that need help.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain