so sad and powerful

[Skyrad 0]

'You say that as if the whole thing was a mistake and that we have to pursue damage control to make up for it. Over half of the American public disagrees with you and we think it was, in fact, necessary for many reasons other than WMD. Not to look at ALL the details/reasons is not to take the whole problem in perspective. The Democrats use “WMD” alone to drive their agenda into the minds of the uneducated masses. '

Sure theres the 'He's a nasty tyrant who kills his own people argument' But so is the President of Uzbekistan and the President of Kazakstan as well, and they're in the coalition.

Then theres the 'He was in leauge with OBL' propagander which is simply untrue but yet belived to be a fact by the majority of the US.

In fact being honest the best reasons to go to war with him was
A) for the buissness that would be generated by the reconstruction.
B) Because the 'war on terror' was going no where as far as US results went.
C) The US economy was trundeling down a hill.
D) Afghanistan was a failure. OBL still uncaptured, Muller Omar still out there, AL Quieda has stepped up attacks world wide and is still operational. It was a good diversion from that.
E) He tried to kill my Pa!

And I'm not even going to mention the oil......

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Dresden didn't have any industry nor were any troops gathered in the area."
Not strictly true, it had war factories and rail yards. Its located at a major junction on the rail network servicing the Eastern front.

Also consider that the terror bombing of these cities, not just Dresden, also Hamburg, Wurzburg, Nuremburg et al was at the suggestion of the British bomber command.
"In 1941 Charles Portal of the British Air Staff advocated that entire cities and towns should be bombed. Portal claimed that this would quickly bring about the collapse of civilian morale in Germany. Air Marshall Arthur Harris agreed and when he became head of RAF Bomber Command in February 1942, he introduced a policy of area bombing (known in Germany as terror bombing) where entire cities and towns were targeted." from http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWdresden.htm

""... the question of bombing German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror ... should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land ... The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of allied bombing ...."
Winston Churchill.

To compare the bombing of Baghdad to the air raids of the 2nd world war is crass, somebody else used the word asinine. 35,000 people died in Dresden in a couple of nights. Lets try and keep things in perspective.

"The US is wrong always."
Not always, and when they are wrong they are seldom alone.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Ron 10]

Quote

In fact being honest the best reasons to go to war with him was
A) for the buissness that would be generated by the reconstruction.
B) Because the 'war on terror' was going no where as far as US results went.
C) The US economy was trundeling down a hill.
D) Afghanistan was a failure. OBL still uncaptured, Muller Omar still out there, AL Quieda has stepped up attacks world wide and is still operational. It was a good diversion from that.
E) He tried to kill my Pa!

Those are you OPINIONS right? Or do you have any FACTS?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Bigwallmaster 0]

Edit to add: If Iraq had any thing to do with 9-11 ok but Iraq didn't so please let that go. It seems people are just reaching to find a reason. There is no reason the Iraq war was and is a mistake.

----------------------------------------------------------

Yep you're right about them not having much to do with 9-11. But one thing is for certain, Iraq is loaded with Islamic extremists that support the same philosophy of the Osama Bin Laden's of the world. Iraq harbors groups of individuals that gladly and openly attempt to build support for the tenets of Islamic extremism. And yes, there are economic interests there as well. But in truth, an additional reason we are there is to send a message to other countries that harbor Islamic extremists. . . . .you better watch your ass because we're getting tired of your shit! I agree that the premise of the Bush doctrine (ie. his stated reasons for entering Iraq) could have been handled much better. In hindsight we all now agree that WMD was a stupid way of trying to get support.

Oh and by the way, there is a reason for this war: the reason for this war resides in the fact that Saddam Hussein was a horrible tyrant who controlled way too much power with all those oil reserves over there. And let's not forget about the countless human rights violations. Truth be told, we are over there for more than one reason. Do I get frustrated with the United States govt's never ending viewpoint that every country should be a democracy? Yes. Do I think we look like a bunch of asses for insisting upon trying to shape Iraq in image of our own country? Yes. But, if someone asked me. . .Did the United States make the right decision in going into Iraq? Based upon the scary power Saddam had, and the human rights violations also, my answer is Yes! I just wish President Bush could have had the political balls to come out say these sames things prior to the war.

cheers,

J.P.

[Ron 10]

Quote

Yea, right, like the attack on Dresden and Hamburg...
Dresden didn't have any industry nor were any troops gathered in the area. Still, US and british bombers killed more than 250.000 innocent civilians.

WWII and Gulf War II are totally different animals.

The advances that have happened in the last 50 years made that possible.

Carpet bombing was the way the war was back then. They were also bombing the hell out of England.

War today is fought differently...We are trying to reduce civilian deaths as best we can.

But in war shit happens.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,998]

>I just wish President Bush could have had the political balls to come
>out say these sames things prior to the war.

Good post. I agree there; there would be a lot less rhetoric now if Bush had laid out the real reasons for the war before invading.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

The Democrats use “WMD” alone to drive their agenda into the minds of the uneducated masses.

Or would that be because Bush used that as his main and almost sole argument to go into Iraq?

[pajarito 0]

Quote

The Democrats use “WMD” alone to drive their agenda into the minds of the uneducated masses.

Or would that be because Bush used that as his main and almost sole argument to go into Iraq?

Thanks for stepping up to the plate and offering yourself as an example of one of those persons I was trying to describe. Certainly, you don't really (I mean...really ) believe that WMD was the sole purpose for going into Iraq...

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Quote

Thanks for stepping up to the plate and offering yourself as an example of one of those persons I was trying to describe. Certainly, you don't really (I mean...really ) believe that WMD was the sole purpose for going into Iraq...

You can call me stupid and uninformed all you want, but I don't remember Bush using many other reasons to invade Iraq?

Or are we back now with the, off course he doesn't tell you everything. For security reasons we can not tell you everything, but just believe me that I know what is best for everybody and I don't have to tell you why I am invading another country, just believe me when I tell you it is all for good and valid reasons.

You are right though, I don't really believe that WMD were the sole reason for going into Iraq. I believe that oil and Bush family ego have much to do with it as well.

[billvon 2,998]

>Certainly, you don't really (I mean...really ) believe that WMD was
>the sole purpose for going into Iraq...

It wasn't, but it was pushed by Bush as the main reason to the exclusion of almost everything else. In his 2003 SOTU address, 18 paragraphs concerned Hussein's WMD's; only in one paragraph did he mention any other reason (liberating the people of Iraq.) Hence many people now feel they were misled.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Sure theres the 'He's a nasty tyrant who kills his own people argument' But so is the President of Uzbekistan and the President of Kazakstan as well, and they're in the coalition.

I’ve had experience on the ground dealing with the countries in the region you’ve mentioned. You obviously don’t understand the nature of this kind of war. We needed those countries to stage out of since we couldn’t get Pakistan. Sometimes, you’ve got to get out there, get dirty, and deal with less than admirable people in order to accomplish your objectives. Certainly, there are evil and corrupt leaders of countries in other places but the fact that Saddam Hussein was a brutal, corrupt, and murdering, dictator is just one of the reasons for going to war with Iraq. There were many others.

Quote

Then theres the 'He was in leauge with OBL' propagander which is simply untrue but yet belived to be a fact by the majority of the US.

You have proof, of course, that he didn’t give aid, comfort, money, weapons, etc. to Al-Qaida?... You’re aware that money (from drugs and such) and weapons supporting the terrorist efforts of Al-Qaida and others gets filtered through other countries and not just the one that UBL happens to be in at the time, right? You are also aware that there are many smaller terrorist groups/networks affiliated with Al-Qaida and, therefore, with UBL?

Quote

In fact being honest the best reasons to go to war with him was
A) for the buissness that would be generated by the reconstruction.
B) Because the 'war on terror' was going no where as far as US results went.
C) The US economy was trundeling down a hill.
D) Afghanistan was a failure. OBL still uncaptured, Muller Omar still out there, AL Quieda has stepped up attacks world wide and is still operational. It was a good diversion from that.
E) He tried to kill my Pa!

And I'm not even going to mention the oil…..

I don’t really feel the need to respond to most of these ludicrous reasons because I feel that they appear as such to most people already. I do take offense to the “Afghanistan was a failure” quote, however. Once again, you demonstrate “not taking the whole issue into perspective.” No, we don’t have UBL. We have eliminated the “headquarters” of Al-Qaida, however, and that is extremely important. We’ve capture or killed most of their command structure. We’ve got them on the run and are denying them open mobility and operations in the region. We’re also fighting them over there and not here (i.e. took the fight to the enemy). We’ve also got Afghanistan on the way to becoming a functioning democratic society. I’d call those major successes!

[billvon 2,998]

>We’ve capture or killed most of their command structure. We’ve got
> them on the run and are denying them open mobility and
> operations in the region. We’re also fighting them over there and
> not here (i.e. took the fight to the enemy). We’ve also got
> Afghanistan on the way to becoming a functioning democratic
> society. I’d call those major successes!

From the opening to Brazil, one of my favorite movies of all time:


INTERVIEWER
Deputy minister, what do you believe
is behind this recent increase in
terrorist bombings?

HELPMANN
Bad sportsmanship. A ruthless
minority of people seems to have
forgotten certain good old fashioned
virtues. They just can't stand seeing
the other fellow win. If these people
would just play the game, instead of
standing on the touch line heckling -

INTERVIEWER
In fact, killing people -

HELPMANN
- In fact, killing people - they'd
get a lot more out of life.

INTERVIEWER
Mr. HELPMANN, what would you say to
those critics who maintain that the
Ministry Of Information has become
too large and unwieldy ...?

HELPMANN
David ... in a free society
information is the name of the game.
You can't win the game if you're a
man short.

INTERVIEWER
Do you think that the government is
winning the battle against
terrorists?

HELPMANN
On yes. Our morale is much higher
than theirs, we're fielding all their
strokes, running a lot of them out,
and pretty consistently knocking them
for six. I'd say they're nearly out
of the game.

INTERVIEWER
But the bombing campaign is now in
its thirteenth year ...

HELPMANN
Beginner's luck.

[Darius11 12]

(this is directed at every one who supports the War not just you)

You have some good points , and I agree with you on some of the things you said.

But here is my problem.
It is not the US governments responsibility to stop Islamic extremists or any extremists. If we don't want people who are extremist we can start right at home we have plenty of them here.

Hell after hearing the president say how the almighty wants him to spread freedom. He sounds extreme don’t you think?

Sadam was not a nice guy every one knows that. I have more personal reasons to hate him then most of you.
The problem is we supported him when it was convenient just like we supported Osama.
Our government is only concerned about money they will kill there own sons and daughters to make a buck.
They will use media and every thing in there power to make people believe it is the right thing to do.
Tell me honestly how many soldiers who are in Iraq do you think come from rich family’s, How many Senators sons are in the battle field. The poor always die in wars and the rich get richer.
The scary part is even after we all know that the original reason we went to war was false. The influence of the government and media is so much that people can’t admit it.

Here is another point that I like to make and I make it often.

Islam is not about peace it is about justice.
So you can bet your life if you harm me or the people I care about you will see my vengeance.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Faber 0]

Quote

Its not a pissing contest.

Quote

As long as more enemy soldiers die then american things are going well.

can you deside????
i thourght USA wanted the war to stop.. i am might wrong??? hope not...

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Hence many people now feel they were misled.

So does the President. We've been over the whole "he based his ultimate decision on the best intelligence we, and others, had at the time" thing many times already. Any other President has to rely on our intel sources as well (what we've got at the time; whether good in reference to completeness and reliability or not so good). There's no doubt that there was an intelligence problem prior to 9-11. I have no idea why we need a commission to determine that.

[pajarito 0]

Quote

Islam is not about peace it is about justice.

I thought it was, “obedience to the will of God, submission, humbling one’s self, resigning one’s self to the divine disposal.

[Skyrad 0]

'I don’t really feel the need to respond to most of these ludicrous reasons because I feel that they appear as such to most people already. I do take offense to the “Afghanistan was a failure” quote, however. Once again, you demonstrate “not taking the whole issue into perspective.” No, we don’t have UBL. We have eliminated the “headquarters” of Al-Qaida, however, and that is extremely important. We’ve capture or killed most of their command structure. We’ve got them on the run and are denying them open mobility and operations in the region. We’re also fighting them over there and not here (i.e. took the fight to the enemy). We’ve also got Afghanistan on the way to becoming a functioning democratic society. I’d call those major successes!'


Errrr.......right, you keep on beliving that

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[pajarito 0]

Quote

It is not the US governments responsibility to stop Islamic extremists or any extremists.

It damn sure is if they attack us, especially on our own soil.

Quote

Hell after hearing the president say how the almighty wants him to spread freedom. He sounds extreme don’t you think?

I don’t believe that was exactly what he said but I also don’t believe it is extreme seeing as how most people in the world believe in the existence of a supreme God. I personally think it’s very smart, under these circumstances, to seek the guidance of God.

[pajarito 0]

Were you there? You just keep tuned into CNN and soaking up all their bullshit.

[Darius11 12]

Quote

Quote

Islam is not about peace it is about justice.

I thought it was, “obedience to the will of God, submission, humbling one’s self, resigning one’s self to the divine disposal.

My remark was to every one saying it is about peace.
Islam the word means surrender to god.

If i wanted to summarize a religion in one post it would take decades to write.
I chose what it means most to me. Justice

I am sure you knew that, but I am also used to people just picking at any point they can when they run out of facts or reasons to argue with.

Kind of like when a kid calls you a stinky poo poo head.

Now if you feel like picking at something else go head. Unfortunately your mind is made up like many here. In the begging people would argue with me that SH had WMD and they would fight and argue there points till they were blue. Now that they know there wrong they will argue about something else. What’s the point when minds are closed and so sure of them self’s. When you think you know it all and your never wrong you will never learn.



We will all see when the time comes just like the WMD time will prove who is right.

Have a good day

I am done.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[pajarito 0]

I had to look back to make sure but, did I call you a name? Or did I just hit a hot button? Certainly I wouldn’t call you or anyone else something like a “stinky poo poo head.” I can do much better than that.

Quote

In the begging people would argue with me that SH had WMD and they would fight and argue there points till they were blue.

http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html

Clark even said that they had the capability to develop more and that they were a threat.

[Darius11 12]

Quote

I had to look back to make sure but, did I call you a name? Or did I just hit a hot button? Certainly I wouldn’t call you or anyone else something like a “stinky poo poo head.” I can do much better than that.

Quote

In the begging people would argue with me that SH had WMD and they would fight and argue there points till they were blue.

http://www.kdp.pp.se/chemical.html

Clark even said that they had the capability to develop more and that they were a threat.

Oh no you didn't call me a name and no i don't get mad. Just realized there is no point in arguing any more.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[pajarito 0]

When I was in Afghanistan, I read a book about Islam to gain a better perspective. It was very interesting. Not that I agree with or accept Islam but what I read concerning the faith makes it hard for me to see justification for the extremists that we see performing terrorist acts around the world. Maybe it was just that book but it made it seem like it was, as you said, about “surrendering to God and peace.

[Darius11 12]

I think Islam is about Justice. Not to do harm to any one unless they harm you. If there is Justice there will be peace

I was born in Iran and there is many things they tell you to believe.
My own belief might be a lot different then the average Muslim.
I think when you let any one Christian, Jewish, or Muslim tell you what to believe they will tell you what they want you too hear. Islam I think is beautiful it is the most modern religion of the big 3.
It is the only religion that believes in all the other religions that came before it (the big 2).



Now there is always people who will use religion to get what they want done and to brain wash people.
And in countries that are poor it is easier to do that. I do think most Muslims want peace and not war.


When ever you have a general hate for some race. It is always because of ignorance.
There is no way you can have legitimate reason to hate a cretin type of people.
Unfortunately many people want to belong more then they want truth. I think that is where you get groups who are extremists in any religion or belief.

I think it is very cool that you took the time to read about Islam. I love learning about other religions or beliefs even people like Carl Sagen. I think there is good and bad points in every thing and every one it is good to have an open mind.

Peace

Darius

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[favaks 0]

Quote

Now there is always people who will use religion to get what they want done and to brain wash people.
And in countries that are poor it is easier to do that. I do think most Muslims want peace and not war.

Never heard of Buddhism or Hinduism, the big 2, being used to brain wash people.

favaks