Spotting Question

[PWScottIV 0]

So last weekend I did my first Hop'n'Pop at 3.5k for my A-license requirements... On the way to altitude I was trying to see where we were, but sometime before my jump run I lost track. Light turned green, so I opened the door and stuck my head out, but couldn't see anything recognizable. I looked back in to the person behind me, and asked if he knew where we were, but I only got a shrug. I looked out momentarily again and the pilot (also DZO) was yelling at me to get out. So, reluctantly, I did.
I totally understand the time/money constraints of having to go around again, but do you think I should have stayed in, or do you think I should have gone like I did? When I've talked to the DZO about spotting before, he's said when the light turns green, then jump. But that goes against everything I've been told and read. The DZO uses a GPS to assist his spot, and he does take feedback AFTER the jump. Should I second guess him if I'm the only person visually spotting? If yes, do you think it's ok for me to try to estimate the drift based on winds-aloft forecasts and hold at the door occasionally (if I feel it's needed) to move further upwind? I just don't have a good feeling for what's acceptable and what's not. I don't want to piss off the DZO, but I also don't want to put myself or others into a potentially hazardous situation, especially considering that he doesn't visually see the spot.

See my next post for more detail and a satellite view markup.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[mnealtx 0]

First off - YOU are responsible for the safety of your skydive. You should be looking around for other traffic and to make sure you're in a safe spot to exit the plane.

It also sounds like you need to talk to someone else besided the DZO for spotting lessons, if he's telling you to "wait for the green light then jump".

A quick search for "spotting lessons" here may bring up some good information for you...good luck!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[phoenixlpr 0]

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When I've talked to the DZO about spotting before, he's said when the light turns green, then jump. But that goes against everything I've been told and read. The DZO uses a GPS to assist his spot, and he does take feedback AFTER the jump.

It does not sound like a safe place to jump.

[Yossarian 0]

alot of students i speak to say they never see the airfield when they get out or even for a while under canopy even though theyre looking everywhere, and i used to have the same problem, got quite worried on my first jump. im not saying the following is the case here, but most of the time they were looking everywhere except straight down under their feet... especially when spotting from higher altitudes the dz is pretty damn small, and if its unfamiliar then unless you know where to look it is quite hard to find, but if i move my big toe, there it is! ive never been in a plane where theyve said 'just go on green' - i have been in aircraft where ive asked what separation is needed and theyve said 'wait until were at an angle of 45degrees...' and on my first go at spotting where i said 'what should i do if theres a cloud over where i think the dz is?' to be greeted with the stirling answer - 'get out of our way, are you colour blind?!' (referring to the green light i believe) made me feel quite uneasy

[phoenixlpr 0]

Spotting from 600-800-1000m is not a magic if visibility conditions are good.

I think anyone can learn it, at least everyone has managed it who got B license in our club.

Its an every days' practice on a place with small plane, but it can be a rare wisdom with big planes and GPS.

Anyway you do have to know and _check_ your spot and airspace too.

Yes I did some jumps by GPS only, but that is a different story.

[PWScottIV 0]

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alot of students i speak to say they never see the airfield when they get out or even for a while under canopy even though theyre looking everywhere

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Spotting from 600-800-1000m is not a magic if visibility conditions are good.

There were three main factors at play that made it difficult for me to see the spot.
1. We were about 10k lower than I'd ever spotted at, so I wasn't used to the scale of everything I saw.
2. We were traveling at 360, which was surprising to me because although the uppers (6k-12k) were at 360, 3k was at 280. And the airport and landing area runs along 280, so I was expecting to see at least some part of the airport (.8mi long) or a riverbed (several miles long). But, now both were back behind the plane, not at all what i expected.
3. Most of the time (I've only jumped here about 15 times) the jump run has been somewhere around 280, even at 13k, so that was sort of disorienting too.

I've attached a satellite view of how things went down. The door is on the arrow side, just to give you an idea of what I could see. Basically if I had expected the airport to be way behind us, I might have been able to see it if I had looked that far back...

My question is, if I had no idea of where I was at (but the airspace was clear), should I have jumped?

Gravity Waits for No One.

[AggieDave 6]

Give yourself a helping hand. Get on Google maps http://maps.google.com and look at the sat image of your DZ and surrounding area. Learn what it looks like, start picking up on the major landmarks.

A typical climb out to jump altitude will have a good DZ pilot circling up around the DZ, staying basically in the glide ratio of the plane being flown for the DZ at what ever altitude the plane is at. So in many circumstances you won't fly away from the DZ for 10 miles and back again for jump run.

After some study with the sat images of your DZ and surrounding area, get with your instructors on the rules, policies and your concerns about spotting. Don't people give you their knee jerk reaction that you're jumping at an unsafe DZ. That may simply not be true. What may be true is that at your experience level and understanding of skydiving you may have misunderstood what had been mentioned in passing by the DZO. Get with your instructors and the S&TA to clear it all up.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[phoenixlpr 0]

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My question is, if I had no idea of where I was at (but the airspace was clear), should I have jumped?

Thats what you get from a hot-air balloon.

[CornishChris 5]

Your instructors should walk you through spotting from the plane - when I was taught we looked out the plane together and the instructor indicated the DZ and other land marks. Expecting a student on their first HnP to spot is a little harsh as they will already be preoccupied by other issues. In the UK the HnP is still part of AFF so the student would be required to be dispatched by an instructor who would be responsible for the spot even if the student checked.

Take another look at the aerial photos of the DZ that will inevitably be knocking around and ask an instructor to go through spotting with you in the plane - I am sure they will be happy to help.

IMHO you should not have been put in this position in the first place but if you ever need to leave the plane 'reluctantly' (unless it is on fire) then you shouldn't leave the plane at all.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[PWScottIV 0]

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Give yourself a helping hand. Get on Google maps http://maps.google.com and look at the sat image of your DZ and surrounding area. Learn what it looks like, start picking up on the major landmarks.

A typical climb out to jump altitude will have a good DZ pilot circling up around the DZ, staying basically in the glide ratio of the plane being flown for the DZ at what ever altitude the plane is at. So in many circumstances you won't fly away from the DZ for 10 miles and back again for jump run.

After some study with the sat images of your DZ and surrounding area, get with your instructors on the rules, policies and your concerns about spotting. Don't people give you their knee jerk reaction that you're jumping at an unsafe DZ. That may simply not be true. What may be true is that at your experience level and understanding of skydiving you may have misunderstood what had been mentioned in passing by the DZO. Get with your instructors and the S&TA to clear it all up.

First, if I felt like I was in true immediate danger I wouldn't be jumping there. I think they're very safety conscious in general, but I'm just a little bit concerned about the DZO/Pilot having 100% control of where I get out...
Also, I haven't been jumping for very long, but I've never heard the expereienced jumpers/instructors ever communicate with the DZO/Pilot in advance about the spot... Is that normal? Or is there usually some sort of quick, "it would be best to start the jump run here" conversations at most DZs?
This the first time I haven't known exactly where we were when the door opened. I have studied satellite images, but I didn't see any recognizable features on that particular jump (see the satellite image I attached to my last post).

Gravity Waits for No One.

[diablopilot 2]

Spotting starts long before jumprun. I make it a practice to be aware of my position relative to the DZ the entire ride to altitude. Often to keep the climb economical a hop and pop jumprun will be different than the jumprun at altitude.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[PWScottIV 0]

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Your instructors should walk you through spotting from the plane - when I was taught we looked out the plane together and the instructor indicated the DZ and other land marks. Expecting a student on their first HnP to spot is a little harsh as they will already be preoccupied by other issues. In the UK the HnP is still part of AFF so the student would be required to be dispatched by an instructor who would be responsible for the spot even if the student checked.

Take another look at the aerial photos of the DZ that will inevitably be knocking around and ask an instructor to go through spotting with you in the plane - I am sure they will be happy to help.

IMHO you should not have been put in this position in the first place but if you ever need to leave the plane 'reluctantly' (unless it is on fire) then you shouldn't leave the plane at all.

I feel comfortable spotting without assistance, but in this particular situation I think I should have asked the pilot where he was planning my exit, so I could look at the aerial images for references ahead of time.

Gravity Waits for No One.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I feel comfortable spotting without assistance, but in this particular situation I think I should have asked the pilot where he was planning my exit, so I could look at the aerial images for references ahead of time.

???
In practice you have to tell the pilot in what direction you want the jump-run.

We usually tell the pilot over which landmark we want to have the jump-run or "just fly into the wind" (C172-C207).

[mnealtx 0]

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First, if I felt like I was in true immediate danger I wouldn't be jumping there. I think they're very safety conscious in general, but I'm just a little bit concerned about the DZO/Pilot having 100% control of where I get out...

Ok... I want to comment on this - YOU have 100% control of where you get out, and you're the only one responsible for your safety and your skydive. If you don't feel it's safe or you don't like the spot - don't jump!!

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Also, I haven't been jumping for very long, but I've never heard the expereienced jumpers/instructors ever communicate with the DZO/Pilot in advance about the spot... Is that normal? Or is there usually some sort of quick, "it would be best to start the jump run here" conversations at most DZs?
This the first time I haven't known exactly where we were when the door opened. I have studied satellite images, but I didn't see any recognizable features (see the satellite image I attached to my last post).

I can't speak for other DZ's, but what I've done at my home DZ when spotting is this:

Working with a copy of a local map, I plot the winds aloft to determine my exit / opening points. I figure the base direction of the jump run and communicate that with the pilot. I speak with the other jumpers on the load and show them what I've figured for jump run so that the other groups can figure their exit points.

On jump run, I'm watching for any drift pushing the plane off course and correct for that, I'm also watching for other traffic. Once we get the ok to open the door, I'm again checking for drift and making corrections as needed and making a closer check for traffic as far around the plane as I can see.

Once I'm convinced that we're on a good jump run and the airspace is clear, I'll point out the DZ to other jumpers in my group, get in the door and go.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[PWScottIV 0]

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Spotting starts long before jumprun. I make it a practice to be aware of my position relative to the DZ the entire ride to altitude. Often to keep the climb economical a hop and pop jumprun will be different than the jumprun at altitude.

You have no idea of what happened... You sound like you think you were there or somthin... lol Ok, so maybe you were, lol. I know I should have known where we were and I was trying to look out the door for recognizable landmarks, but for whatever reason I wasn't able to... I'm sure part of it was that I was sort of stressed about exiting so low. I usually begin to pull by 4k, so exiting at 3.5k was definitely weighing a bit on my mind.
In the end everything was ok, but I was just wondering what others would think, regarding me leaving the plane without knowing exactly where I was... And if it was typical to not have any pre-jump or in-flight communication between the first person exiting and the pilot... Any more than "Jump on Green"...

Gravity Waits for No One.

[AggieDave 6]

Every day there's conversations with the pilot between the experienced jumpers, instructors, DZO, S&TA and students on what the jumprun should be or needs to be changed to. Atleast a quite a few DZs. Some DZs I've jumped at it wasn't so much since they've got things down to a science for running multipul large turbines over a DZ at once (Eloy for instance).

Now days the spot is determined before the first load by the winds aloft forcast. Sometimes they're wrong. Then they'll be changed after that load or even during the climb to altitude by an experienced jumper or experienced jump pilot that observes a drastic difference in the plane's drift and speed verses what should be happening.

For me, when I'm teaching my coach level students the finer points of spotting they have already learned about selecting a spot by using a flight planner, they know roughly where their exit point will be and their opening point. They also know what pattern they're going to fly, where they want to land and have drawn it on their flight planner. I review what they've done and if I agree I tell them to go brief the pilot. If its not correct, then I'll help them fix their mistakes and learn how/why. Then they go brief the pilot.

Sometimes the brief isn't accomplished on each load due to back to back loads, etc. Every chance I get I make my students brief the pilot (if things have changed or they haven't jumped yet that day). I want them to be in the habit of having an active role in spotting, jump run and understanding why/how.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[PWScottIV 0]

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...Working with a copy of a local map, I plot the winds aloft to determine my exit / opening points... ...On jump run, I'm watching for any drift pushing the plane off course and correct for that...

I did that once (my calculations were correct) and that's when he said "Just jump on Green". We ended up pretty far downwind at least partially because I wasn't "allowed" to wait as long as I wanted to for us to push further upwind. To some extent I can see his concern though, I mean I only have about 20 jumps and I think he probably has thousands, so it's a difficult situation. And if I were to wait too long I could screw up the jump run for the tandems at the end of the load, which would really suck...

Gravity Waits for No One.

[PWScottIV 0]

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Every day there's conversations with the pilot between the experienced jumpers, instructors, DZO, S&TA and students on what the jumprun should be or needs to be changed to. Atleast a quite a few DZs. Some DZs I've jumped at it wasn't so much since they've got things down to a science for running multipul large turbines over a DZ at once (Eloy for instance).

Now days the spot is determined before the first load by the winds aloft forcast. Sometimes they're wrong. Then they'll be changed after that load or even during the climb to altitude by an experienced jumper or experienced jump pilot that observes a drastic difference in the plane's drift and speed verses what should be happening.

For me, when I'm teaching my coach level students the finer points of spotting they have already learned about selecting a spot by using a flight planner, they know roughly where their exit point will be and their opening point. They also know what pattern they're going to fly, where they want to land and have drawn it on their flight planner. I review what they've done and if I agree I tell them to go brief the pilot. If its not correct, then I'll help them fix their mistakes and learn how/why. Then they go brief the pilot.

Sometimes the brief isn't accomplished on each load due to back to back loads, etc. Every chance I get I make my students brief the pilot (if things have changed or they haven't jumped yet that day). I want them to be in the habit of having an active role in spotting, jump run and understanding why/how.

Yeah, that's what I wish would happen. I feel sort of screwed with respect to that. I know I have sooo much to learn about spotting (and I've been trying to read what I can and talk to whomever I can about it), but when I hear things like "Jump on Green" I'm like what the hell! If you want me to get out at a certain place (and I'm gonna be at the door spotting), then please let me know what your thoughts are... Not just "get out of my plane now!"

Gravity Waits for No One.

[AggieDave 6]

Remember there is give and take.

If you're the first or second out and you take 15 seconds in the door due to waiting for the hollywood spot, then you're screwing the rest of the load and creating a situation where a go around is possibly needed or people might misjudge and land off. Or if your spotting skills are subpar and it takes you that long to figure out where you are and that the airspace is clear, same thing. How do you get better? Sit by the door and constantly spot the AC the entire ride to altitude, that's one way of many.

Whats the solution? The same thing I told you to do in my first post. Go talk to your instructors, the S&TA and the DZO. Hell, get the pilot involved too, they can usually help you learn spotting as well.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[PWScottIV 0]

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Remember there is give and take.

If you're the first or second out and you take 15 seconds in the door due to waiting for the hollywood spot, then you're screwing the rest of the load and creating a situation where a go around is possibly needed or people might misjudge and land off. Or if your spotting skills are subpar and it takes you that long to figure out where you are and that the airspace is clear, same thing. How do you get better? Sit by the door and constantly spot the AC the entire ride to altitude, that's one way of many.

Whats the solution? The same thing I told you to do in my first post. Go talk to your instructors, the S&TA and the DZO. Hell, get the pilot involved too, they can usually help you learn spotting as well.

I agree, that does sound like good advice... But the DZO is the pilot and I think he's the S&TA as well... As far as spotting goes I didn't find him to be very approachable (mostly because he's so busy, I think), which is very disappointing, because I'm sure he has a huge amount of spotting knowledge/experience.
Like I mentioned in my previous post, I'm not just thinking about myself here, if I'm at the door, I'd like to make sure I don't wait too long and screw the end of the load (especially considering that they're typically the tandems)

Gravity Waits for No One.

[tombuch 0]

Your profile says you are a student with 21 jumps, and your post says this was your first hop and pop. I think you should have had a coach or an instructor with you for that jump. Absent an assigned coach, you could have mentioned to an experienced jumper by the door that you might need help, and asked for progressive guidance. If (as happens at many DZ’s) a jumper is saying “THE GREEN LIGHT IS ON GET OUT, GET OUT,” he is not being helpful. An alternative is for him to smile and say something like “…that large clump of trees and that house are just north of the field, so the airport is back there. The spots fine, you should be able to jump. Have a good one.” That takes about 20 seconds. Many non-instructors don’t understand the distinction, or why it’s so important to be supportive in a high stress situation.

I’d also say that you shouldn’t get out if you are not comfortable with the spot, and it’s pretty hard to be comfortable if you have no idea where you are, or don’t have an instructor/coach to assist. I’m guessing this was designed as a low altitude learning jump for you, rather than everybody doing a hop and pop. The hop and pop is an important training event, obviously because of the shorter freefall time, but also because of the spotting differences, the short time to get ready for exit, and the general stresses associated with it. If others were rushing you because they wanted to get out, my suggestion would be to let them jump and hopefully get a second pass from the pilot with a bit of guidance about where the DZ is. If the jump run was just for you, I’d ask for a go around and explain the problem. Mistakes happen, and sometimes a new jumper gets confused. A good DZ will invest the flight time to be sure every student is safe, and has a chance to learn. Pilots are human and they sometimes get angry, but it’s your safety on the line. Plus, keep in mind a typical jump only costs about $20.00 - $25.00, and if you aren’t comfortable it’s well worth staying in the airplane and taking the financial loss.

It sounds like you understand that it’s also a good idea to know the jump run and exit points before you get in the airplane. You can do this by watching a few loads before it’s your turn, asking manifest or an instructor, or asking the pilot. That should give you an idea of what to expect. Of course the jump run may change in flight because of winds or traffic, so be familiar with the entire area so you know where the DZ is even if you can’t see it. It sounds like that has happened, and you learned from the jump. Also, at big turbine DZ’s the pilot may put you out on a low pass while climbing to normal altitude, so he might not have time to set-up a standard or expected jump run.

Others reading this would do well to recognize how stress can build, and why a beginner may need some extra help. We were all in that position once, and when things get weird in the airplane we should help novices to learn and grow. I’m convinced that part of the retention problem in our sport is caused by beginners becoming too stressed by everything demanded of them in the fast paced turbine world we now jump in, so they quit. Back in the day every experienced jumper made it a point to help support beginners and nurture them into our world. In many places (especially big DZ’s) that nurturing/mentor relationship between beginners and old-hands is gone. We should all work to bring it back.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[dharma1976 0]

tom your cool demeanor and helpful attitude is an inspiration as always....

Ditto what he said...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[popsjumper 2]

One kick-ass post!

"I think you should have had a coach or an instructor with you for that jump."

That was my first question, too.

"Others reading this would do well to recognize how stress can build, and why a beginner may need some extra help. We were all in that position once, and when things get weird in the airplane we should help novices to learn and grow. "

Amen, brother!

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[billvon 2,997]

>but do you think I should have stayed in, or do you think I should have
>gone like I did?

I would have stayed until I saw the DZ. Explain later that you aren't willing to get out if you can't see the DZ and you might need help finding it.

>Should I second guess him if I'm the only person visually spotting?

The issue here is that he shouldn't second guess _you._ You can see out; he can't. You can see clouds; he can't. You can see traffic; he can't. You can see a fire truck in he landing area; he can't.

>If yes, do you think it's ok for me to try to estimate the drift based on
>winds-aloft forecasts and hold at the door occasionally (if I feel it's
>needed) to move further upwind?

Yes. In most cases you can also give hand signals to correct your course over the ground.

I'd recommend doing some more low jumps (say, from 3000 feet) - at those altitudes it's a lot easier to see the DZ in my experience. It's also a lot easier to see your motion over the ground, and where you will open over the ground. It's easier to clear airspace, judge cloud height, see what's in the landing area etc.

Spotting takes some time to learn; don't feel bad that it's taking you some time to see the DZ. Once you get familiar with the area around your DZ (as seen from the air) it will get easier.

[velvetjo 0]

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Spotting starts long before jumprun. I make it a practice to be aware of my position relative to the DZ the entire ride to altitude. Often to keep the climb economical a hop and pop jumprun will be different than the jumprun at altitude.

You have no idea of what happened... You sound like you think you were there or somthin... lol Ok, so maybe you were, lol. I know I should have known where we were and I was trying to look out the door for recognizable landmarks, but for whatever reason I wasn't able to... I'm sure part of it was that I was sort of stressed about exiting so low. I usually begin to pull by 4k, so exiting at 3.5k was definitely weighing a bit on my mind.
In the end everything was ok, but I was just wondering what others would think, regarding me leaving the plane without knowing exactly where I was... And if it was typical to not have any pre-jump or in-flight communication between the first person exiting and the pilot... Any more than "Jump on Green"...

I think what he's getting at is situational awareness. This is a skill that takes time to develop, but it also takes your focus as a student to make it happen. You mention in another post that spotting from 3,000' was an unexpected visual picture - this shouldn't really be the case at your point in training, as you should have been given the opportunity to see that sight picture on at least 10 of your 20-some jumps.

Even if your instructors aren't telling you to do it, make a habit of finding the airport at common exit altitudes (including low ones). From the jumprun diagram you indicated, the airport should have been visible pretty readily from the door for a while before exit. You might need to get ready a little sooner so that you have time to look outside without distractions before the green light - that's a good lesson to take away from this, and something concrete that you can do to improve your spotting.

You're at a stage similar to a student pilot just who has just done his solo. You know the procedures, but there can be a tendency to get so engrossed in them that you don't see the rest of what's going on around you. This is pretty normal, and part of the learning process. Your instructor's job is helping you to develop through this stage, although it becomes tougher with self-supervised students depending on DZ policies and differences between instructional programs.

To answer your question, it's a bit disappointing that you were told that the "green light means go" and not given better coaching in spotting. From what you posted, you were probably justified in asking for a go-around, but it's hard to say for sure without actually knowing the circumstances first-hand. I may be an exception, but I believe that this is an area where USPA coaches can help a lot. Too bad some DZ's don't use that resource more.

Lance