Hamas leader assassinated

[Darius11 12]

To Kennedy

I didn’t say I agreed with the Hamas policy, but I can see why they are doing what there doing. Killing innocent Israelis the same as Israelis are killing innocent Palestinians.
An Eye for an Eye so to speak.
However I think it would be just plain dumb to think that Palestinians have the same killing power as the Israelis. they don’t.
So who do you think is getting killed more often?
Why do you think Israel does not want UN peace keepers inside?
I am not saying Hamas wants peace. I know the average Palestinians do.
I am sure you can not look me straight in the face and say The Israeli government wants peace they don’t. You don’t make the people you are going share a land with second class citizens if you want peace. You don’t kill there children.

Too Michele.

Michele you rock.

Your information is correct the Jewish people went threw hell you are 100 percent right, but I don’t see how that gives them the right to hurt and make others suffer. They should be even more sensitive since they know how it feels.

Too Juanesky

Do you think the Israeli government wants peace?
If your answerer is yes. Do you think they want peace that is fair to both sides? or peace that means they get every thing they want and give the leftovers to the Palestinian people?

Too Benny

What we did to the Native Americans was horrible I don’t think any one can deny that. The difference in this satiation is Israel is still killing Palestinians.
They did not make the right decision when they were offered there own land.
I can see it would be very hard to swallow when someone takes what’s yours and then says you can have a quarter back.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[jakee 1,500]

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By establishing a nation given them by the Balfour declaration in 1920 (IIRC), but only after they were killed by the millions because of delays and reluctance from The League of Nations, which, when it fell, phoenixed up as the UN

A state given to them by an occupying force (Britain), (which had already made numerous promises to the arabs in exchange for WW1 service) and then recognised by a dubious authority (the UN) after pressure from a biased nation (the US).
I'm afraid I still don't see why the Palestinians should think that fair.

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Too bad that they have to fight for their existance. They should just lay down and die, right?

OK, now you're talking about the Palestinians right?
No?
Israel is far stronger than the palestinian territories and more than capable of fighting off surounding Islamic nations. They have long since moved passed fighting for survival, and with Sharon in power have been at least as aggresive as various terrorist organisations.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[juanesky 0]

It seems that you want to discuss fiction as fact, based on your factless statements about the current jewish state, and its formation.

Sad that you note them as been given territory right after they proclaimed independence, and having to wage war, by themselves against 4 powerful armies back in 1948.

You forget that hamas base of existance is the total elimination of Israel, and does not intent in forging any peace.

I would say keep them blowing!.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[benny 0]

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Too Benny

What we did to the Native Americans was horrible I don’t think any one can deny that. The difference in this satiation is Israel is still killing Palestinians.
They did not make the right decision when they were offered there own land.
I can see it would be very hard to swallow when someone takes what’s yours and then says you can have a quarter back.

There are more complex issues than the simple fact that Israel has more "killing power". This is obvious, Israel could abolutely dessimate the entire Palestinian people if it so wished. The fact of the matter is that they don't do that whether they really want to or not, they tend to pursue targeted killings. Sure, children and other innocents do sometimes die but such is the price of sending 13 year olds and the like to throw rocks and what have you at 18-19 yr olds with machine guns. And then throw in the fact that hamas et al target civliians consistently mainly because they know they don't have a snowball's chance in hell against the IDF. And possession is 9/10ths of the law, and the fact of the matter is that the Israelis have the ball. Shit, a quarter, a third, whatever, the Israelis would settle for this small strip of land surrounded by people who hate them? You're from where Darius, Iran? You got plenty of land there, right? Why not start a movement to offer part of Iran as a homeland for the Palestinians? Ok, I'm getting silly now but you catch my drift, it's not exactly as if the pan-Arab community has offered much in the way of contributing to a solution to this problem.

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[Michele 1]

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Michele you rock.

Thanks...you too....

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Your information is correct the Jewish people went threw hell you are 100 percent right, but I don’t see how that gives them the right to hurt and make others suffer. They should be even more sensitive since they know how it feels.

See, I'm not sure I can agree. If the Palestinians didn't have a charter that declared genocide on the Israeli Jews, if there wasn't a real and credible - and oft acted upon - threat of death, then yes, maybe.

But what's happening is the Jews are seeing a repeat of what they've experienced for centuries, culminating in the death of 6 million people. They are prepared to not let it happen again, and they are prepared to fight it to the end. Not lay down and take it, as so many people want.

If the Palestinians voided the Hamas charter, and stopped the attacks, I think the Jews would be able to "be sensitive" without worrying about their own lives and their own existance. But as long as it stays "either/or", then the Jews have no option but to handle the threat to their existance.

And I'm willing to bet a jump ticket that most Israelis don't want to see any more dead - on either/any side. But they are less willing to see themselves or their loved ones killed rather than someone trying to kill them.

There is a time and place for sensitivity. While you're under attack from something's whose stated goal is total annihilation of you is probably not the time.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[debonair 0]

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after the whole hitler thing they could have been an example of peace and forgiveness and rightousness. but....... we all see how they have responded to their liberation

By establishing a nation given them by the Balfour declaration in 1920 (IIRC), but only after they were killed by the millions because of delays and reluctance from The League of Nations, which, when it fell, phoenixed up as the UN, and finally gave the Jews a place of refuge, a homeland...that, had it been done at the time it was proposed, 6,000,000 people would not have lost their lives; they would've had a place to go (remember that boat loads of Jews trying to flee Hitler were denied refuge on many countries' part....).

And responded to liberation? Like they were slaves, or indentured, or something? They were free people, horribly oppressed throughout the centuries, but they were free. Their "liberation" came at the cost of 6 million lives...and thousands more in the battle to establish their own country.

Too bad that they have to fight for their existance. They should just lay down and die, right? Remember the phrase "never again"? What do you think it applies to?? Geesh.

Man, read up on your history - not just the 80's and 90's. Understand the cultural/political/religious issues involved...or at least phrase things so you don't come across as rabidly anti-semitical as you do. (and no, I'm not sure "semitical" is a word...but you know what I mean.)

Ciels-
Michele

To say nothing of the fact that it was a barren, undeveloped, undesirable piece of desert that is now a fertile, green and successful independent state. No wonder the Palestinians want it, the hard work to develop it has been done by someone else.

AZChallenger JFTC99/02 GOFAST300 STILLUV4WAY
"It's nothing 1000 jumps won't cure..."
- Jeff Gorlick, Seattle Sky Divers

[falxori 0]

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However I think it would be just plain dumb to think that Palestinians have the same killing power as the Israelis. they don’t.

you're right, they don't.
maybe you should ask yourself which side is using all it's killing power and which side tries to target those who are responsible? (and i know it doesnt always work)

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Why do you think Israel does not want UN peace keepers inside?

take a look a couple of posts before this on and if you still think the UN is nuetral, well, take another look
the UN peace keepers in lebanon did nothing most of the times because Hizbullah threatened to kill them.

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I am not saying Hamas wants peace. I know the average Palestinians do.

i agree, or at least i hope so.
but a nation has to control it's freaks.
they can't expect to have a country if they wont control them.
when israel was established there were 2-3 armed organizations, and as you know, we needed everything we had, but a brave decision of the leaders made them disarm or risk civil war.

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say The Israeli government wants peace they don’t.

not in any cost.

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Your information is correct the Jewish people went threw hell you are 100 percent right, but I don’t see how that gives them the right to hurt and make others suffer. They should be even more sensitive since they know how it feels.

you're right, it doesn't
it has nothing to do with it and its two different things.
the palestinian civilians suffer because its the only way to stop the terrorist that hides between 100 innocent workers on their way into israel.
how would you stop him?

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

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You're from where Darius, Iran? You got plenty of land there, right? Why not start a movement to offer part of Iran as a homeland for the Palestinians? Ok, I'm getting silly now but you catch my drift, it's not exactly as if the pan-Arab community has offered much in the way of contributing to a solution to this problem.

If it was up to me there would be no boarders so the Palestinians, the Jews, you, and me could move to Iran if we wanted too.
Here is a big point that I think your not seeing. No one wants to be kicked out of there home and then be told where to live.
The Palestinians want there home back and they will fight for it.
They have the right to have there land back.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

Yes it was a barren, undeveloped, undesirable piece of desert that is now a fertile, green and successful independent state. The reason for that is the Billions of Aid we the United State send them every year. Do you think it is a coincidence that they have all the same weapons that we do. Don’t make it seem like out of no where this great nation just came to be. We gave them the money, and the support and we still do. That is also the reasone we are hated by many
Kind of funny how we want no one to have nuclear weapons but Since Israel is such a peace loving nation( sarcasm ) were not only ok with the fact we help them.
Does that make since to any one?
Then we wonder why we are hated. We are responsible for innocent children dieing we might have not pulled the trigger but we put the gun in the hand that we knew would.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

Here is what I would do.

I would open up the boarders. I would end segregation.
I would stop treating the Palestinians as second class citizens.
Once people live together and are allowed to have the same standard of living. They will not be able to hate each other they have no reason to.
It is very simple actually. If there worlds mix equally they will eventually get along and live together. There will always be people who will think that is blasphemy on both sides, but the new generation will learn that the OTHERS are humans just like them. They even want the same things and maybe even like the same music.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

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The Palestinians want there home back and they will fight for it.
They have the right to have there land back.

not to start the endless debate of who was here first, but the palestinians (or most of them) dont want to control their own lands , they want to kick me from my house.
and you know what ? before my family moved here (after being forcefully driven out of Hebron which is 99% palestinain today), there was nothing here but swamps.

i'll be happy to give them their own state, but if thats not enough for them then i'm sorry, i wont accept it, especially with the way the chose to "fight".

would you give away Rhode Island ?
and in your case, its pretty clear who was there first...

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

your ideas are great, but sadly they have nothing to do with the real world...

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I would open up the boarders. I would end segregation.

why? they want a seperate country , dont they?
why doesnt the US open its borders with mexico?
why can't a turkish worker work freely in france?

why should they enter israel freely?

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I would stop treating the Palestinians as second class citizens.

the palestinians in the west bank are not israeli citizens. and the west bank was never annexed to israel.
israeli arabs who are israeli citizens have the same rights (although less duties since they dont serve in the army).

in the long run , you're right, the only way to remove their desire to kill me is for them to have a normal succesful life, but this takes time.
at them moment, as soon as you give them a break, they use it like they have in recent years.
the roadblocks and security fence is there for a reason.
do you really think that if israel pulls out and lets the PA control their areas again (which was done in the Oslo process) , everything will be quiet?
don't be naive.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Darius11 12]

I know for a fact it will not be quiet.

Is it quiet now?


There is some serious problems in both governments.
Israeli and Palestine need new leader ship.

I just realized you live in Israel.

I have a few questions for you.
I know we see on TV or read a study and think we know what’s going on, But from someone who lives there what’s really going on?
How do the Israeli people feel about the Palestinians?
What’s the general out look?
Basically what I was wondering is what does the average Israeli think should be done.
Sorry for all the questions.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

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I have a few questions for you.
I know we see on TV or read a study and think we know what’s going on, But from someone who lives there what’s really going on?
How do the Israeli people feel about the Palestinians?
What’s the general out look?
Basically what I was wondering is what does the average Israeli think should be done.
Sorry for all the questions.

i'm very happy that you asked that, and you're right, what you see and hear from over there is not whats really going on.
so i'll try to answer but keep in mind i represent myself, not israel, nor the palestinians.

whats going on?
well, from the average palestinian's point of view (and excuse me for not caring for the terrorist parts)
life is pretty shitty.
during the peace process, when there was a feeling of a better future, their economy (which rely mainly on israel) was much better and they pretty much took care of themselves in every civilian manner.
now they suffer, and trust me when i tell you that i dont like it.
you want to know whats the worst part? frustration that there is nothing to do in the short run.
as i said, as soon as you try to ease their lives, the terrorist groups use it to carry out attacks.
you're right when you say that its not israeli troops who should be inside palestinian towns to stop them, but when the PA doesnt do it, who will?

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How do the Israeli people feel about the Palestinians?

in one word: disappointed.
its not easy for any of us to give away parts of the lands to which we're connected with history faith and blood, and as i said, my family was living in Hebron for centuries before they were forced out in the 1936 riots.
why disappointed? back when its started in 1992 most of israelis were torn between being cautious and giving it a chance, and as you know we've lost a prime minister because of that. but it went on.
violations were over looked, there was a small palestinian army instead of a police force, no terror group was disarmed and corruption took over the PA.
when the peace process reached its final stages and (camp david, in 2000) they were talking about the final agreement, arafat said no, when he didnt get everything. (and it was damn close to eveything from our point of view).

we werent disappointed by the failure of negotiations, it happens.
we were disappointed because we suddenly realized that it was a double standad game since the begining.
"get all you can in peaceful deals, and when you can get no more go back to violence".
there is a reason why most of the western world dont see Arafat as a leader anymore, he couldn't transform himself into a real leader.

i don't doubt for a minute that things are tough for the palestinians, and its a wonder how israel manages to keep up a western lifestyle (even with US support, which btw egypt is getting almost the same).

what is the solution?
2 separated states.
and for the palestinians sake i hope it will be normal states with economical relations and not a closed border, because they can not support themselves at the moment.
how to get there? i don't know.
its hard to trust someone who has stabbed you in the back before.

hope it helps.
sorry for the long answers

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[vmsfreaky1 0]

Why the hell should the Jews get a homeland? why not the Kurds and the Palestinians? coz the Jews have all the influence and money these other minorities dont.

You talk of persecution? try being a kurd in turkey.

[Michele 1]

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coz the Jews have all the influence and money

Um, where are you getting your history from? It's sadly lacking in truth....

On another, more general note, I am appalled at the anti-semitic thoughts expressed in this thread. Seems that people still hate the Jews. Unfortunately, I can't say I'm surprised, but I am disappointed.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[vmsfreaky1 0]

My history? say the last fifty years.

As soon as someone mentions the "influence" and the "money" the Jews have someone screams anti-semitism. STOP IT. its a fact. it is not an attack on jews.

It's just like mentioning poor black people, is that racist? No.

Also, what about all the hatred directed towards the arabs in this thread? such as "kill them two by two" it seems to be strangely ignored.

One mans freedom fighter is anothers terrorist.

[juanesky 0]

Too bad your freedom fighters came to blow a couple of passenger planes in a couple buildings 160 miles from my home.

So, why don't you go read a little more about how the state of Israel was founded before making any more baseless rant.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[falxori 0]

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coz the Jews have all the influence and money

damn, where was i when all that money and influence were handed out ?

what next? you'll reveal our secret plan to take over the world? give me a break...

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Michele 1]

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My history? say the last fifty years.

Take it back about 2000, or even 3000 years, and you'll start to see a pattern. History didn't start and end in the last 50 years. Shoot, take it back only 100 and you'll see how wrong you are. But if you do manage to take it back to the beginning (which is a really good place to start...), you'll get a whole, complete picture of how wrong your statement is.

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As soon as someone mentions the "influence" and the "money" the Jews have someone screams anti-semitism. STOP IT. its a fact. it is not an attack on jews.

No, I won't "STOP IT". Too bad for you, hunh? And it's not a "fact"...it's your (sadly misinformed) opinion.

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It's just like mentioning poor black people, is that racist? No.

Yes, it is, if you think black people are "poor". I knowmany wealthy black folks...and many powerful and influential black people. And that's in the last 50 years.

Thinking anyone is anything simply because of their race is racism.
Thinking anyone is anything simply because of their gender is sexism.
Thinking anyone is anything simply because of their religion is sectarianism.

All are subsets of bigotry. And bigotry is horrible, destructive, and absolutely stupid.

Ciels-
Michele

(edited to clarify my grammer and thoughts on bigotry...)

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[christelsabine 1]

Sorry, i just had to interfere here:

vmsfreaky1 is right. and his statement was no attack on jews.

thinking, all jews have influence and are sitting on mountains of money still is actual. if YOU go back to the history you will find out, that over centuries, jews were chased simply because they kept their identity, they were most successfull biz men, made a lot of money, were on key positions in policy and civil power ... (the last part still is valid today)

to simplify:
others were just jalous. jalous enough to initiate infringements on jewish shops, companies etc. this was increasing up to the attempt of a genocide.

i know what i'm talking about as my mother "partially" is jewish. i know the story of her family and others.

still today in the 21st century, from time to time i hear phrases like that: ah look, this jewish one, making money like all the jews.

this is in mind since centuries. it will take centuries to fade away.

leaving the scene,
christel

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Michele 1]

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all jews have influence and are sitting on mountains of money still is actual.

Really? Coulda fooled me.

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others were just jalous. jalous enough to initiate infringements on jewish shops, companies etc. this was increasing up to the attempt of a genocide.

If they were so powerful and wealthy and influential, don't you think they could've stopped the attacks??? The logic here fails me.


Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[christelsabine 1]

The logic is very simple:

they were in key positions and still are. just have a look at your politicians, their names, their background, their personal/family history. many jewish names.

but as a single one, or even a group, it's impossible to stop attacks, increasing attacks, growing violence. after years of pressure, many of them did what they only were able to do: emigrate. if they were lucky, together with their belongings.

i do not know how old you are but, it's not that simple as you see it.

again, let me express this in simple words:

the jewish race always was considered as the intelligentsia, successful biz makers, intelligent and: they always were a "minority", catching the eyes of jalousie with their "behaviour".

nearly all successful minorities are sharing same fate. (Even jews are no minority, only spread all over the world)

just that much for better understandings.
christel

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Jimbo 0]

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Sorry, i just had to interfere here:

vmsfreaky1 is right. and his statement was no attack on jews.

thinking, all jews have influence and are sitting on mountains of money still is actual. if YOU go back to the history you will find out, that over centuries, jews were chased simply because they kept their identity, they were most successfull biz men, made a lot of money, were on key positions in policy and civil power ... (the last part still is valid today)

OMG! I just spit soda all over my computer! Thanks so much for the laugh!

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the jewish race always was considered as the ...

For the record, there is no "jewish race". Judaism is a religion, not a race.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[falxori 0]

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all jews have influence and are sitting on mountains of money still is actual.

and there i was thinking this kind of stupidity has passed away from this world (and i don't care if you see it as a personal attack, what you said is nothing but stupid)

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i know what i'm talking about as my mother "partially" is jewish. i know the story of her family and others.

you know who usually says: "some of my best friends are jews/black/gay etc."
do you really think the fact your mother has jewish roots is why her family was successful?

i'm jewish and i wouldn't mind getting money and influence just because of that.
but sadly, i have to work full time, i pay tuition like everybody else (in europe i'd be getting paid to go to school, right?) etc.

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they kept their identity, they were most successfull biz men, made a lot of money, were on key positions in policy and civil power ...

keeping your identity is a bad thing?

i really don't see your point.
if you really believe people are doing well just because of their religion, thats your problem.
american jews are nothing like european jews which are very different from african jews etc.

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this is in mind since centuries. it will take centuries to fade away.

this is pretty much the only right thing in your post.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."