nacmacfeegle 0 #26 April 22, 2004 "Actually, it's a bunch of people who want to pollute the air and make my kids sick. You don't have the right to do that any more than I have the right to toss my trash over the fence into your yard." One might be tempted to extend this analogy to a global level. It may even be time to discuss the Kyoto accord, and the reluctance of two major world polluters to sign it. One of those countries produces 25% of the world's CO2 emmisions and has no plans whatsoever to reduce their contribution to this sorry state of affairs. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #27 April 22, 2004 Quote>I do need to stay on point and that's to trust the market and >people to drive the right behavior (eventually). This works for most things, but it does not work in this case - because air is free, and thus any free market based scheme will make maximal use of the air as a trashbin because it is simply cheaper to do so. So TAX THE AIR! Problem solved.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #28 April 22, 2004 >It may even be time to discuss the Kyoto accord, and the reluctance > of two major world polluters to sign it. Now that's just crazy talk! Next thing you know you'll be saying that countries are responsible for what they do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #29 April 22, 2004 Don't let the scientist fool you... there is no direct connection between emissions and global warming and ultimately the end of the world. Until people in my field can figure it out, I am not going to worry about the airpollution from car emmissions. Nature has a way of balancing herself out, only humans could be so conceted to believe that they could control the weather :-) Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #30 April 22, 2004 QuoteDon't let the scientist fool you... there is no direct connection between emissions and global warming and ultimately the end of the world. But there is proven correlation between emissions and asthma, emphesema, acid rain, and hosts of other environmental problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #31 April 22, 2004 >there is no direct connection between emissions and global warming >and ultimately the end of the world. Just like there's no connection between smoking and cancer, or driving drunk and getting in an accident. Hey, you can't PROVE that if you smoke two packs a day for the rest of your life you'll get cancer, right? Therefore quitting smoking does nothing for your health. An argument used by many smokers to let them keep smoking with a clear conscience. >Until people in my field can figure it out, I am not going to worry >about the airpollution from car emmissions. What's your field? The majority of climatologists and a great majority of research and regulatory organizations (including the EPA) agree that CO2 emissions change re-absorption of infrared radiation and thus change the climate. >Nature has a way of balancing herself out . . . I agree 100%. One of those ways could be the elimination of humanity in favor of insects. Would that be OK with you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #32 April 22, 2004 QuoteDon't let the scientist fool you... there is no direct connection between emissions and global warming and ultimately the end of the world. Until people in my field can figure it out, I am not going to worry about the airpollution from car emmissions. It's pretty clear that there is a connection. The question is over the magnitude. Is the earth warming up because it's in a warming cycle? If so, how much are we adding to that cycle? And certainly anyone living in LA, Houston, China can see the effects of air pollution. Or go to Yosemite Valley and climb Half Dome. Look to the east, see blue skies. Look at towards the valley, see brown haze. Quote Nature has a way of balancing herself out, only humans could be so conceted to believe that they could control the weather :-) One of the more likely scenarios has our grainbelt moving north to Canada, leaving us a bit on the dry and underfed side. On the positive side, there is now speculation that the world population may top out at less than 10billion which does give technology a chance to catch up with our needs, esp in developing nations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #33 April 23, 2004 "there is no direct connection between emissions and global warming and ultimately the end of the world." So what is causing global climate change, El Nino anomalies, loss of polar icecaps and ice fields from mountains? If you reply by saying you don't know, don't you think that CO2 emmisions, ODPs etc may have some indirect effect? Perhaps even accelerating a natural cycle beyond mother earth's ability to restore balance naturally. Remember when everyone thought the world was flat, and that Earth was at the centre of the universe. Scientific opinion changes, and there's a lot of scientific opinion out there that believes we are influencing climate change. Not necessarily the end of the world, but maybe the end of large areas of Texas, Florida, Holland etc. "only humans could be so conceted to believe that they could control the weather" Not control but have an effect on it, certainly, you can't deny that, we've been seeding clouds for years.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #34 April 23, 2004 QuoteWhat's your field? The majority of climatologists and a great majority of research and regulatory organizations (including the EPA) agree that CO2 emissions change re-absorption of infrared radiation and thus change the climate. My field is meteorology and atmospheric physics. The truth is MOST climatologist do not believe that human output will or would cause the disasters forecast by an outspoke Few in the research field. Don't confuse press coverage of people saying the vast majority of scientist believe this with the actual facts. I have sat in on many conferences on this topic and most of us view this stuff as comical.. The simple facts are that there is no credible data out there which supports most theories and at some point all these theories end up crontradicting themselves. If we had been studying this stuff for a hundred years it still wouldn't be enough time to get an accurate depiction of what has happened vs. what will happen. Using Ice core samples researchers found that the highest levels of CO2 in our atmosphere in the last 10k years occurred about 1200 years ago. Why? Because those people in the dark ages were using too many fossil fuels????? Also, this fear of Global Warming is crap. It is global cooling we need to worry about. The ironic thing is Global warming can trigger an Ice age in less than a half centurys time. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #35 April 23, 2004 >The truth is MOST climatologist do not believe that human output will > or would cause the disasters forecast by an outspoke Few in the > research field. Disasters? I agree. But most climatologists agree that the climate is changing rapidly and that it is due to rapidly rising CO2 levels in the atmosphere. Much of the debate now centers around what effect that will have on the planet as a whole - the biosphere, the hydrosphere, the atmosphere. Out of the 23 upcoming meetings listed in the latest NCAR-ESIG newsletter, 12 concerned climate change. Some topics: The Ocean in a High-CO2 World The Second Annual Brussels Climate Change Conference The Influence of Climate Change on North Atlantic Fish Stocks Human Dimensions of Climate Change and Environmental Change in Central Asia The Seventh International Conference on Greenhouse Gas Control Technologies Water and Climate Change - Knowledge for Better Adaptation Ten years ago the meetings were about whether it was happening at all. Now they are about how to deal with it. It's become an accepted fact. > Don't confuse press coverage of people saying the vast majority of > scientist believe this with the actual facts. I have sat in on many > conferences on this topic and most of us view this stuff as comical.. Funny, then, that more than half the meetings I listed are discussing how to deal with what you and your friends consider comical. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
