American Torture in Iraq

[billvon 3,058]

>There goes more conspiracy theory.

Actually he listed a bunch of facts. A conspiracy theory would be "the government is protecting them from prosecution."

[pajarito 0]

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What's really kind of screwed up about this is that this incident was discovered a month ago and the perpetrators were removed from duty. No charges were filed against them until the 60 minutes piece.

I've also got to add this. Have you any idea how long it takes to get anything done in the military? I'm surprised it got done as fast as it did. You can't even get a letter in the mail in less than a month or two.

[pajarito 0]

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Actually he listed a bunch of facts. A conspiracy theory would be "the government is protecting them from prosecution."

Is that not what he's alluding to? Maybe I'm trying to read into what he says too much. I should know better than that by now. If so, I apologize.

[Gawain 0]

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"I don’t buy into the “see, I told you the US military was corrupt and evil and, therefore, the war is criminal and unjust” "

It hasn't come to that yet, fortunately the debate here has been relatively civilised so far.

No, it's been a broader, equally difficult "bash-the-USA" en masse for well over a year.

Based on what I saw on CBS, I do not believe that this is necessarily a "broader" problem, but possibly a "deeper" problem. There were people who were interviewing the prisoners ("civilian contractors"). I believe that they too could be held accountable to the code of justice, right?

There were 6 or 7 guards at this prison, and some 900 prisoners at the time of these abuses apparently.

Once the trials are complete, I hope they throw the book at those found guilty.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[billvon 3,058]

>So what is the diference now beetwen Bush and Saddam Hussein?

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The Abu Ghurayb [Ghraib] prison, located approximately 20 miles west of Baghdad, is where Saddam Kamal (who was head of the Special Security Organization) oversaw the torture and execution of thousands of political prisoners. The prison was under the control of the Directorate of General Security (DGS) also known as the Amn al-Amm... As of 2001 Abu Ghraib may have held as many as 15,000 persons, many of who were subject to torture.
Global Security.org
Abu Ghurayb Prison
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When Iraq is free, past crimes against humanity and war crimes committed against Iraqis, will be accounted for, in a post-conflict Iraqi-led process. The United States, members of the coalition and international community will work with the Iraqi people to build a strong and credible judicial process to address these abuses.
The White House
Life Under Saddam Hussein
April 4, 2003
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Hopefully we will try harder to live up to that promise in the future.

[andrewstewart 0]

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CNN has not authenticated and american mirror has an agenda. So waiting on the confirmation.

I think this pretty much confirms it:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/iraqis_tortured/

[kallend 2,103]

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Could you kindly explain to an alien what it means:
C in C?

thx in advance

US Constitution, Article II Section II:
"The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states, when called into the actual service of the United States..."

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[dgskydive 0]

First of all I am very upset about this. Those soldiers should be put away for a long long time. They are a disgrace to themselves their families and the entire United States!!!!! In know way is this type of action excepted!

This thread has also shown that some of you are really ANTI American PERIOD! Why don't you just come out and say "I hate the United States!"

A few of you live in a real dream world. People make mistakes. Individuals will always make it harder on a large group. You guys are so quick to bash the U.S. and it's soldiers. Never mind that there are 100's of thousands of our troops over there that do the right thing everyday.

Someone said that the Iraqi's are treating their prisoners right. Take a look at the situations. The Iraqi's have dragged U.S. civilians through the streets and ripped them to pieces. When they had POW's at the start of the war, they kept them close to the fighting. Why would they do that. Because they know that we won't blow up the buliding they are in if we think our troops are in there. If they weren't using them as shields like that, they would have killed them or at least tortured them. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just don't go and try to make the IRaqi's out as saints.

I think it is funny that the people that are always criticizing the U.S. in these forums are from countries that for the most part haven't done anything to help another country. THey come from countries that sit back and watch things happen in the world. They think it will never effect them. Just let the rest of the world do whatever they want. WAKE UP YOU FOOLS!

DO you honestly think that people like Saddam Hussein and OBL just suddenly stop the things they do if the U.S. pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan today? Do you really think that as long as the U.S. sits on it's hands and stays out of foriegn affairs that the world will get along better? Are we supposed to sit back and wait until Europe gets off it's ass and does something?

Let's not forget what started this. Something about planes flying into buildings and hundreds of innocent people being killed. You think those people that jumped from those buildings weren't being tortured? What makes a person jump from a buliding like they did? Pure hell! That is what made them jump. What about the people that where in those planes. They knew they where gonna die. They could see out the windows. They knew they where going in. You don't think that was torture? What about the people who saw it on TV? They watched as there loved ones died in those buildings and somedidn't know for days after if there family members where alive or dead. Isnt that torture?

Don't be so quick to judge a whole nation by what 6 people did! That is like me saying "You can't trust Germany ever again because Hitler and his goons killed so many Jews" That is stupid. I knew many Germans and I love ther country. I have lived there and would love to go back and stay for longer next time. The Nazi's are a blemish on an otherwise great country. Just like these soldiers are a blemish on an otherwise great country.

Don't be so self righteous. Europeans have commited more acts of murder against other races then anyone else.

Dom

[kallend 2,103]

Did your mother allow you to get away with "Well, he did it first" as an excuse for bad behavior? Mine didn't.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[dgskydive 0]

I am not trying to say "hey they did it first, so we should be able to do it as well".

In fact if you read the first paragraph I wrote, I said how I feel about this.

I said "two wrongs don't make a right"

What my mom did teach me was to not sit on a high horse. Like some people do around here.

Dom

[billvon 3,058]

>Don't be so quick to judge a whole nation by what 6 people did!

We judged a whole nation by what 19 people did on 9/11/01. You're right, the actions of those 6 don't represent what the majority of US soldiers are doing there, but those six are still sending a message to the people of Iraq by doing it. We better be 100% absolutely positively sure something like this does not happen again. Not just because it's the right thing to do, but because it will save US lives by reducing hatred against us.

[pajarito 0]

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We judged a whole nation by what 19 people did on 9/11/01. You're right, the actions of those 6 don't represent what the majority of US soldiers are doing there, but those six are still sending a message to the people of Iraq by doing it. We better be 100% absolutely positively sure something like this does not happen again. Not just because it's the right thing to do, but because it will save US lives by reducing hatred against us.

Completely different. Those 19 people were affiliated with a terrorist organization and not a country. Afghanistan was safe harbor for terrorists at the time and the Taliban were supportive of that organization. The US doesn't "judge" Afghanistan for what 19 (mostly Saudis) did on 9-11.

[billvon 3,058]

>I have never seen any deviation from the Geneva Convention
>committed by US military. I can't believe that this war is that much
> different from all the others. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen.
> I'm just saying that it is obviously isolated and should be dealt with
> appropriately.

This whole thing reminds me of a Monty Python episode I saw once:

---------------------------
Sir John: May I take this opportunity of emphasizing that there is no cannibalism in the Royal Navy. Absolutely none, and when I say none, I mean there is a certain amount, more than we are prepared to admit, but all new ratings are warned that if they wake up in the morning and find toothmarks at all anywhere on their bodies, they're to tell me immediately so that I can immediately take every measure to hush the whole thing up. And finally, necrophilia is right out.

Monty Python's Flying Circus
Episode 32
November 23, 1972
--------------------------

[newsstand 0]

It is disgusting. It is also what happens when anyone vilifies the enemy. We convince ourselves that they are less than human so it no longer matters what we do to them. We wonder why they don't trust us?

I have seen Polaroid photos from Viet Nam that are the remains of a VC soldier after he was dragged behind a jeep through the jungle and then burned with a flame thrower for the fun of it.

All conquering armies have this problem. I suspect some British soldiers are doing the same kinds of things, they may just be smart enough to not take pictures.

"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

[dgskydive 0]

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Completely different. Those 19 people were affiliated with a terrorist organization and not a country. Afghanistan was safe harbor for terrorists at the time and the Taliban were supportive of that organization. The US doesn't "judge" Afghanistan for what 19 (mostly Saudis) did on 9-11.

Thank you.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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I have never seen any deviation from the Geneva Convention
>committed by US military. I can't believe that this war is that much
> different from all the others. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen.
> I'm just saying that it is obviously isolated and should be dealt with
> appropriately.

I second his statment. I have a feeling he has seen a bit more then I have, but the fact remains. These are isolated incidents. If you put 99% of the other soldiers in the Army in that prison, this would have never happened.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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All conquering armies have this problem. I suspect some British soldiers are doing the same kinds of things, they may just be smart enough to not take pictures.

I met a guy year or so ago that is the the British Military. He is a young guy about 21 or so. I forget the exact name of the unit, but they are the ones that pull guard duty at Buckingham Palace. You know the ones we Americans love to take pictures with and try to make them smile.

Well this young guy also has served in N. Ireland. He told me many stories of how he and his buddies thought it was real funny to kick little Irish kids when they walked by. He told me stories of how they beat the crap out of guys and how it was something they sometimes looked forward to when they where bored! Does this mean that every British Soldier in N. Ireland is an ass? I don't think so. Just means that this guy and his buddies are jackasses. Does it mean that we should never trust the British military again. No, it means that they have individuals that aren't playing by the rules. They will I am sure one day they will get caught, and I am sure they will be delt with accordingly.

Dom

[Tonto 1]

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I believe people are basically decent, if not distracted at times. The exceptions to the rule are therefore even more notable due to the contrast.

I believed that too. But remove the thin veneer of civilisation, place them in a war zone without iron disipline being enforced - and you will see horrors you would not beleive possible, regardless of the milenium, side, ideology or religion they're on.

Even within the bounds of civilisation, situations like the LA riots indicated just what people are capable of when the rule of law is interupted for a few hours.

In a non violent situation you'll still see oportunistic abuse. Speak to a few bouncers - good ones - not the part timers that sell drugs on the side, and they'll all tell you about stopping some guy from walking out of a club at 04h00 with some unconsious wonan over his shoulder....

Men suck. They really do. Looking at the woman mimicking gunfire at that prisoners genitals makes me think women are 100% ready for combat.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[mr2mk1g 10]

I think its also fair to note that these photo's were first aired 2 days ago on one American TV network. Curiously no other networks wanted to show them or ran the story so it went largly un-noticed until today when media across the rest of the world got hold of them.

I note that the White House didn't want to comment on the issue until today - 2 days after the story first went public.

[billvon 3,058]

>Completely different. . . . The US doesn't "judge" Afghanistan for
> what 19 (mostly Saudis) did on 9-11.

We invaded Afghanistan as a direct result of 9/11. We may have skipped the (public) judge and jury part but we were certainly the executioner. The thousands of deaths in that war are a result of our judgement that their deaths would advance our plans to get the people responsible for 9/11. To claim that we were involuntarily pulled into the war, or that we made no judgements that it was a good idea before invading, is silly.

[mr2mk1g 10]

I posted this story in the hope of generating some intelligent discourse over the consequenses of this reveleation. (Also partly because America appeard to be virtually ignorant of it 2 days after it broke).

I am surprised everyone seems to think the main argument lies in whether or not anyone else has ever tortured someone and over if this is representative of the entire US army.

I don't think there are many plausable arguments that can be made that this represents US official policy or that it is terribly widespread throught the theater.

The very serious issue that really must be adressed is what impact this is going to have on the degenerating situation in Iraq and the worsening diplomatic position the US continues to find itself in.

[dgskydive 0]

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I note that the White House didn't want to comment on the issue until today - 2 days after the story first went public.

They needed to find out who to hang other then the soliders involved. This General that they are naming, was probably totally unaware that this was even happening. When something like this happens, heads roll all the way up the chain of command. These soldiers will see some sort of jail time I expect and some senior NCO's and Officers will be retired early. This may seem like nothing to some of you, but to be forced to retire for a situation like this is a huge thing. These officers and NCO's will be held accountable for the acts of those under their command.

Dom

[Gawain 0]

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I think its also fair to note that these photo's were first aired 2 days ago on one American TV network. Curiously no other networks wanted to show them or ran the story so it went largly un-noticed until today when media across the rest of the world got hold of them.

I note that the White House didn't want to comment on the issue until today - 2 days after the story first went public.

The timing was semi-organized by CBS and its correspondence with the Pentagon. Dan Rather was quite candid in his explanation of that (one of the few times I respected his work).

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[rehmwa 2]

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I met a guy year or so ago that is the the British Military. . . Well this young guy also has served in N. Ireland. He told me many stories of how he and his buddies thought it was real funny to kick little Irish kids when they walked by. He told me stories of how they beat the crap out of guys and how it was something they sometimes looked forward to . . .

Hey Kallend - So by your logic here, the queen of England must apologize to the world and be overthrown/recalled/replaced.

Go get her.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[wmw999 2,515]

Probably not as much discussion because it's so obvious, and because the discussion had some early "see -- the US soldiers are bad" stuff, which, well, folks wanted to defend.

Unfortunately, I think the answer (in broad, simplistic strokes) is:
a. It's going to be bad for the US's attempts to keep Iraq on a course of the US's choosing
b. It's going to be bad for the US's diplomatic position, because now there are documented examples of what we said we were fighting.
c. A lot of people in the US aren't going to care, and are going to wonder why other countries don't like them, and then will say "fuck it I don't like them either," so that relations will end up even less open.

It's thoroughly depressing, and the more so when you realize that the United States's mottos is "United We Stand." The problem is that too many people don't understand that it works for the world, too, and not just the US.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)