American Torture in Iraq

[livendive 8]

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Well, not ALL the way. You can rest assured Rumsfeld and Bush will be properly shielded.

Of course they will. First of all Rumsfeld is in charge of Homeland Security (I still don't like that phrase) So he is not responsible for the actions our soldiers take in a far away land.

No, Rumsfeld is the Secretary of Defense. Tom Ridge is in charge of Homeland Security.

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As far as Bush goes. I agree he is charge of our country. But should he pay for the willfull misconduct of a few idiots? If it is found that this is an established policy and these soldiers where following that policy set forth by the President, then yes he should be held accountable. You prove to me where that is the case with cold hard facts and
I will agree with you 100%.

I was pretty much kidding "on the square." I do not currently have any reason to believe that Bush had prior knowledge of these crimes. Still, he IS accountable, the question is only to what degree. I had a problem with the way he's passed off the lack of WMDs by saying it was an intelligence failure and not his fault. Those people work for him. When he decided to take us into war based on that information, he became accountable as well, just not according to his supporters. For some reason the buck stops at Tenet and I don't get that.

Anyhow, point taken and mostly agreed. I don't think we should be calling for Bush's impeachment over this or anything, but by the same token I don't agree with the folks saying he can't be held responsible for the actions of those who work at his direction.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Gawain 0]

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Doesn't "Homeland Security" sound like some NAzi term or something?

I won't associate anything my country with "nazi-ism" but it does have a socialistic sound from the days of the cold war and the "body politik" ring...in a way...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[dgskydive 0]

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I won't associate anything my country with "nazi-ism"

It's the "Homeland" part that makes me think of it that way. Just feels creepy to me.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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No, Rumsfeld is the Secretary of Defense. Tom Ridge is in charge of Homeland Security.

I already saw my error there. I just saw the R at the beggining of his name and thought Homeland Security right away.

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but by the same token I don't agree with the folks saying he can't be held responsible for the actions of those who work at his direction.

I agree with this. He should be held accountable for the actions of those that work directly for him!

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

Enough for this week! I am going jumping now!

Blue Skies to you all. Make sure not to torture anyone this weekend. Unless they do it to you first!

Dom

[mr2mk1g 10]

Damn you and your californian weather. Its 1AM, raining and I've only just finished my paperwork I'm still behind on because this time last week I too was jumping in Perris...

blues

[pajarito 0]

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And most of those rules came about AFTER Vietnam thanks to the efforts of people like Kerry. Duriing Vietnam there weren't printed cards with the ROE, there wasn't yearly classroom training regarding the Geneva convention, there wasn't much of anything done to educate soldiers about the the international laws of warfare. There were arbitrary ROE that changed on an almost daily basis. Rules such as being allowed to burn down and kill the occupants of a village if they are ordered to surrendur (in English) and don't if you suspect that they may be harboring rebels.

1989 is a far cry different from 1969 thanks to people like Kerry who took the effort to change things for the better.

That's cool. So Al Gore invented the internet and John Kerry invented new and improved ROE and the ethical treatment of POW's. I'm impressed. He's got my vote! ffffffffffftttttttttttt...

[pajarito 0]

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No - the Army brass knew all about this some time ago. The news, was not news to them, don't present speculation as knowledge.

Not just the Army brass. According to this article, Scott McClellan said that Bush has known about it for a while as well.

Blues,
Dave

The question is, what could he have done in advance to prevent it? I think a "POW Torture" commission might be in order to determine the truth and how we can prevent it in the future. Again......hold on......hold on......one more second........ffffffffffffftttttttttttttt!!!!

[crzjp20 0]

i have to say there are only a few people on this page that can testify to these issues correctly. I know he saw combat and i know he has delt with prisionors.... his name: Pajarito.

im in a greement with ytou here. if kerry improved things by calling hs soldgers murdrs and vigulanites then yeah i guese he helpd... but i dont see it.

this is a tragitu, and it is shameful. And the people responcable will be held acountable, thats all that matters.

--------------------------------------------------
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[Faber 0]

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This thread has also shown that some of you are really ANTI American PERIOD! Why don't you just come out and say "I hate the United States!"

duuuuuuude i think your way out there,people here has bashed the soldiers that did this,if that is ANTI american,well dude then i am,and if what thouse soldiers did are american,then americans aint better than Saddam.period.

I dont belive in the above but i am what people like you most time would call anti american,becours i have an oppinion that aint in the american favor all the time. i think people here were good at stating that it were THE SOLDIERS and not US that did somthing wrong here. dont make US look more bad,than its been blamed for

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[tcnelson 1]

my view is that torture is wrong but alive. i don't believe in it but that's what happens when you fuck with the stronger military. is this new to you? it's only been human nature for 5000 yrs.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[PhillyKev 0]

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I am not saying that excuses murder or the horrific acts that took place over there at all. Just pointing out things that can make any man scared enough to shoot someone without using his powers of reasoning to there fullest before he pulls a trigger or sticks someone with a knife.

I am here to say that soldiers in this day and age know the difference for sure. They are trained extensivley for these stiuations. I can't count the weeks I spent training for these types of situations. I also can't count the number of times I was put on "trail for Murder" for breaking the rules of engament. It is not as cut and dry as you thinkk it is. you figure it would be as simple as "There is the enemy go kill him!" It is not that easy....ever!

And that is exactly my point. That is why I can say that Kerry's actions in Vietnam are understandable, and his efforts to bring his and the actions of others to the public light and put a stop to it is commendable.

[PhillyKev 0]

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And most of those rules came about AFTER Vietnam thanks to the efforts of people like Kerry. Duriing Vietnam there weren't printed cards with the ROE, there wasn't yearly classroom training regarding the Geneva convention, there wasn't much of anything done to educate soldiers about the the international laws of warfare. There were arbitrary ROE that changed on an almost daily basis. Rules such as being allowed to burn down and kill the occupants of a village if they are ordered to surrendur (in English) and don't if you suspect that they may be harboring rebels.

1989 is a far cry different from 1969 thanks to people like Kerry who took the effort to change things for the better.

That's cool. So Al Gore invented the internet and John Kerry invented new and improved ROE and the ethical treatment of POW's. I'm impressed. He's got my vote! ffffffffffftttttttttttt...

A) What does Al Gore have to do with anything?
B) I never even implied that Kerry was primarily or even substantially responsible for the clarification of ROE. I said people like him made an effort to that effect. That doesn't quite equate to me saying he invented anything. How about trying to give credit where credit is due instead of bashing someone just because you don't like their politics.

[rhino 0]

I would like some sort of confirmation that those were ACTUALLY soldiers doing that. How do we know those weren't some back woods boys from Alabama or something trying to stur up some shit with the press?

I haven't seen or heard proof that this crap is legitimate.

Rhino

[PhillyKev 0]

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I would like some sort of confirmation that those were ACTUALLY soldiers doing that. How do we know those weren't some back woods boys from Alabama or something trying to stur up some shit with the press?

I haven't seen or heard proof that this crap is legitimate.

Rhino

Ummm, you might want to look at some of the links, or read the gov't press releases. One of the people in the picture is a general. And the military has already indicted some of the participants. In fact there have been quotes from the accused in the newspapers from one of them admitting his actions.

[rhino 0]

I guess I missed that picture..

[damion75 0]

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Do you have "credible" proof that torture is taking place at Camp X-Ray? Also, they don't fall under the Geneva Convention so it's not rellevant.

As a matter of interest, one of the fairly young prisoners released from camp X-ray said he was very well treated, and that they had started to teach him to read... of course this is just one example.

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[damion75 0]

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Is QE2 their Commander in Chief?

Yes. Actually as the senior officer of my Regiment, (Royal Artillery) she is my 'Captain-General'

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[Botellines 0]

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My guess is that this is only the tip of the iceberg.

So are you saying that human kind is evil by nature?
Or just coalition military members?
Or just American soldiers?

If it's just coalition soldiers, do you also include the Spanish support that was in it for the first part?

It must suck to assume that people are evil.

Not at all, I am saying that so far there has been, let´s say, 6 iraquis tortured by six US soldiers. But i am sure that not all the case of torture has been pictured, and out of all the case of torure pictured, not all have made it to the press. So probably to torute the enemy is more frequent that what we think among US soldiers.
Regarding if i think it is only US or the rest of the coalition? Well, it seems that UK army is being investigated as well. I doubt, however, that spanish troops did that, if only because they held no captives while they were there. But i good investigation would be in order just in case.
Is it more clear to you now?

[billvon 3,070]

>If false, I wouldn't be surprised.

More evidence has emerged, including a report written by a US army general in February. So it's been going on for a while.

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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Iraqi prisoners faced numerous "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses" by U.S. soldiers, including sodomy and beatings, according to a U.S. Army report quoted by the New Yorker magazine.

The New Yorker said it had obtained a 53-page, internal U.S. military report into alleged abuses at the notorious Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad. In an article posted on its Web site on Saturday, the magazine said the report had been authorized by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top U.S. officer in Iraq, and was completed in February.

The army report listed abuses such as "breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; ... beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick."

The report, written by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, said evidence to support the allegations included "detailed witness statements and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence."

[billvon 3,070]

>I would like some sort of confirmation that those were ACTUALLY soldiers doing that.

Many of them were not soldiers; they were US "contractors" hired by the military. Perhaps there's a reason the insurgents have been going after US contractors as well as military.