Religion based intolerance...

[PhillyKev 0]

Not knocking your beliefs at all. But you're doing what most religious people do when debating religious issues. You're using quotes from the Bible to legitimize the authenticity of the Bible. It just doesn't fly. If you say you had a personal enlightenment, I'd buy that, but it's personal, so won't convince anyone else. But using the Bible to prove the Bible is true, is circular. It's like in court, you can't use accomplice testimony without corroboration. I've seen corroboration that certain events described in the bible are historically true. But I've yet to see any third party corroboration of the main claim in the Bible, that Jesus was God, or that the God described in the Bible exists at all.

[pajarito 0]

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Not knocking your beliefs at all. But you're doing what most religious people do when debating religious issues. You're using quotes from the Bible to legitimize the authenticity of the Bible. It just doesn't fly. If you say you had a personal enlightenment, I'd buy that, but it's personal, so won't convince anyone else. But using the Bible to prove the Bible is true, is circular. It's like in court, you can't use accomplice testimony without corroboration. I've seen corroboration that certain events described in the bible are historically true. But I've yet to see any third party corroboration of the main claim in the Bible, that Jesus was God, or that the God described in the Bible exists at all.

I know you’re stance. I’m just stating what I believe to be true. IMO, the Bible is accurate enough to be considered trustworthy and, therefore, an authoritative source for my position. Many others will agree with me. Some will not (like you). I’m ok with that. In reference to your statement about corroboration, however, the Gospels all corroborate each other.

[PhillyKev 0]

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In reference to your statement about corroboration, however, the Gospels all corroborate each other.

Those that were picked and chosen at Nicea. There were more gospels that didn't make the cut because they didn't fit with the councils views. That's why I can't buy into it.

Like I said, I respect that you do, and would never try to convince you otherwise. Feel free to believe and worship in any way that you see fit. But I see no difference between protesting against gays, even if they ARE promoting their "gayness" and protesting against Jews for celebrating being Jewish. You believe both groups are going to hell. But would you defend people protesting a block party in a Jewish neighborhood sponsored by the anti-defamation league?

[pajarito 0]

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Those that were picked and chosen at Nicea. There were more gospels that didn't make the cut because they didn't fit with the councils views. That's why I can't buy into it.

I don’t really know all of the reasons why the others that you mention were not included. I believe some of them were written well over 200 years after the fact, however. Maybe that was one of the reasons relating to their reliability. The Gospels which were included were all written within a relatively short period of time of the death of Christ. Prior to that, much was transferred by word of mouth which was the custom. Anyway, I see the preponderance of the evidence leaning towards the reliability of the text. The ones that “didn’t make the cut”, however, do not take away from the truth in the ones that did. I’m truly sorry that you don’t share in my faith.

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Like I said, I respect that you do, and would never try to convince you otherwise. Feel free to believe and worship in any way that you see fit. But I see no difference between protesting against gays, even if they ARE promoting their "gayness" and protesting against Jews for celebrating being Jewish. You believe both groups are going to hell. But would you defend people protesting a block party in a Jewish neighborhood sponsored by the anti-defamation league?

I do not believe that homosexuals are going to hell simply because of their sexual preference. Yes, I do believe that their lifestyle relating to their sexual preference is sinful. I in no way, however, put myself on a pedestal above anyone in reference to righteousness. I’m not perfect, just forgiven. In reference to Jews, I don’t think of them any differently than anyone else who doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ. I think I’ve made the point clear as to what Jesus said that we must all do.

Judaism is an ethnicity as well as a religion. Homosexuality is a choice in lifestyle. I don’t see the comparison in reference to protesting a demonstration.

[jakee 1,498]

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Judaism is an ethnicity as well as a religion. Homosexuality is a choice in lifestyle.

That could be read as suggesting that people of jewish background are biologically predisposed to follow the jewish religion yet homosexuals merely choose to be homosexual.

Most people would reckon that to be the other way round.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pajarito 0]

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That could be read as suggesting that people of jewish background are biologically predisposed to follow the jewish religion yet homosexuals merely choose to be homosexual.

Most people would reckon that to be the other way round.

I’m sorry. I was born in Alabama and am kind of slow. What are you getting at in reference to what PhillyKev said about protesting a “gay” rally vs. protesting a “Jew” rally?

[jakee 1,498]

Don't worry, I'll make allowances for you.

I agree with what phillykev said and was replying to the part of your post that related to the gay/jewish rally question rather than the whole heaven/hell/forgiveness side of things.

Now that I think about it my reply was slightly out of context but the point still stands.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pajarito 0]

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Don't worry, I'll make allowances for you.

I agree with what phillykev said and was replying to the part of your post that related to the gay/jewish rally question rather than the whole heaven/hell/forgiveness side of things.

Now that I think about it my reply was slightly out of context but the point still stands.

I don't see the coorelation in reference to the point PhillyKev was trying to make.

Jews: Can be a person's ethnicity and/or religion. They don't believe or accept Jesus for who he claimed to be and that is also a sin. I don't know that they're pushing a political agenda here. I could be wrong.

Homosexuals: May have a biological factor in that someone may be born with a predisposition to be attracted to members of the same sex. Also may possibly be a result of one's environment. In any case, the homosexual "chooses" to act on the impulse which Christians believe is wrong and immoral. They have a political agenda which is to normalize their lifestyle in our culture. This could then affect the family structure in general and everything associated with it. That affects us all.

Therefore, I can't think of a reason why there would be a protest of a Jewish rally like there would be against a homosexual one.

If I'm way off base and still don't get it (it's been a long day), I offer this attachment.

[kelpdiver 2]

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We're talking about a "gay pride" parade/celebration in the streets of Philadelphia. Hundreds of people walking around with banners and signs, giving public speaches, and pushing their political agenda in a very big way. Not just two guys walking down the street holding hands. Keep it in context.

You don't often hear about a guy getting the shit kicked out of him because he was seen holding hands on the street with a girl. Heterosexuals don't get killed for liking girls. And that is part of the evil agenda you imply the gays have. They wish to make it clear that they exist and in considerable numbers, more than many ethnic minorities that exist in the US. And they want equal rights. Your posts here indicate that you believe your personal belief in the bible makes discrimination legitimate.

It's probably best that you've never seen a Pride Parade in San Francisco. Here they refuse to be discreet because your morals make you squeemish.

[pajarito 0]

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You don't often hear about a guy getting the shit kicked out of him because he was seen holding hands on the street with a girl. Heterosexuals don't get killed for liking girls. And that is part of the evil agenda you imply the gays have.

Not following you here. What specifically are you talking about referring to the homosexual agenda? Neither I nor any Christian I’ve ever heard of supports beating people up people because of their sexual preference. It is certainly not biblical.

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They wish to make it clear that they exist and in considerable numbers, more than many ethnic minorities that exist in the US. And they want equal rights. Your posts here indicate that you believe your personal belief in the bible makes discrimination legitimate.

Your comments make it pretty clear that the gathering in Philadelphia was probably more than just a block party for people to get together and enjoy music. Based on your comment, I derive one agenda: To normalize the homosexual lifestyle in our culture using the tactic of equating their struggle with the struggle of ethnic minorities. That way, they achieve minority status and gain all the benefits that come with simply because they are attracted to the same sex. I don’t see the discrimination bit, though. How am I discriminating based on the Bible by not accepting what is clearly stated as an immoral behavior. Just like any other immoral behavior. I’m not singling out homosexuality in that matter.

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It's probably best that you've never seen a Pride Parade in San Francisco. Here they refuse to be discreet because your morals make you squeemish.

Nothing anyone does in San Francisco is going to scare me, make me “squeamish”, or intimidate me in the slightest. I’ve seen far worse here as well as other places around the world. But, then again, that’s one of the reasons I call Georgia home now.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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1000AD right, a whole millenium of christianity. You happen to live in the americas and have never heard of Jesus. Doesn't that make you a bit buggered?

I don't know the whole answer to that. All I know is what is described in the first 1st chapter of the book of Romans. It is clear that all children of God will be given the chance to follow or reject. However, I also believe that there are some who were created for other purposes.

I think that the reason you "don't know the whole answer to that" is that there is no adequate response to that citation of flaw in the Christian mythos. "All children of god will be given the chance to follow or reject" except those that god forgot, somewhere in a different corner of the world. I have never seen an explanation of what happens to people who simply had the "misfortune" of living in a place where word of Jesus Christ never reached, or was prohibited from reaching. Through no fault of their own, those unreached people are doomed to not reach heaven? How fair is that?!

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As for your reference to Jesus, I really don't know and can only trust that God knows what he's doing.

That is where the difference between you and me lies. You still go on believing in all of what I call "this mythology" in spite of where it falters logically, and I say that if an infallible god were really responsible for it, there would be no flaws and it would all hold up perfectly, leaving no gaps for questioning or doubt. But then you just come back with the catch-all of "you have to have faith." How convenient. Faith is what is required of me wherever your story doesn't hold up. Nice.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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You don't often hear about a guy getting the shit kicked out of him because he was seen holding hands on the street with a girl. Heterosexuals don't get killed for liking girls. And that is part of the evil agenda you imply the gays have.

Not following you here. What specifically are you talking about referring to the homosexual agenda? Neither I nor any Christian I’ve ever heard of supports beating people up people because of their sexual preference. It is certainly not biblical.

IT'S NOT??! Aren't you the one who quoted from the bible that homosexuals would "surely be put to death"?!

Okay, maybe "beating people up because of their sexual preference" is "certainly not biblical." I guess you draw a distinction between "beating people up" and putting them to death.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[pajarito 0]

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IT'S NOT??! Aren't you the one who quoted from the bible that homosexuals would "surely be put to death"?!

Okay, maybe "beating people up because of their sexual preference" is "certainly not biblical." I guess you draw a distinction between "beating people up" and putting them to death.

The quote you’re referring to is this, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
Leviticus 20:13

You’re obviously missing the point. Did you read the article I linked to concerning sin? Here it is again. http://www.billygraham.org/print.asp?i=534&t=qna The point is that sin is sin whether it is homosexuality, robbing the food mart, or calling someone a “fucktard.” The verse is referring to spiritual death and not hanging someone from a tree because they are different from you. Total separation from God. Hell. We are all dead in our sin. God is holy and we are separated from him by that sin. He provided a way of salvation through the blood of his son Jesus at the cross. His forgiveness is a free gift but you have to accept it. You can choose not to but there are consequences. Anyone who uses any of the verses that I’ve quoted to justify brutalizing someone that they don’t agree with is completely wrong and unjustified.

[jakee 1,498]

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The verse is referring to spiritual death

That is a huge piece of very questionable interpretation. Especially being followed by "Their blood shall be upon them" Not jesus' blood, theirs.

If spiritual death really is what's meant by that edition of the bible do you not think the translator or the editor could have made it just a tiny bit clearer?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pajarito 0]

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That is a huge piece of very questionable interpretation. Especially being followed by "Their blood shall be upon them" Not jesus' blood, theirs.

If spiritual death really is what's meant by that edition of the bible do you not think the translator or the editor could have made it just a tiny bit clearer?

You’re misquoting the Bible verse above. Leviticus is an Old Testament text and Jesus wasn’t born yet. Below is a summary I posted months ago concerning the differences in Jewish law.

The commands of the Old Testament are divided generally into moral law, ceremonial law and civil law. The moral law (e.g., the 10 commandments) remain in effect and few people would question that. The ceremonial law (sacrificing 2 oxen, etc.) was fulfilled in Jesus' sacrificial death and the New Testament teaches that it is not binding anymore. The civil law (stoning for adultry, etc.) was specifically that of the nation of Israel.

Even though someone probably would have been physically stoned to death for committing acts of homosexuality (as with heterosexual adultery) in those times, the whole theme of the Bible is that your physical body here on Earth is of no consequence and that your eternal soul is what matters. Jesus sacrificed himself at the cross and ushered in a new covenant with his people (us). If one doesn’t accept the gift of his sacrifice, it will be their own fault because they have no excuse. Romans 1:18-19. The Bible is pretty clear that hell is not a pleasant place. It was prepared for Satan and the fallen angels. Jesus spoke of hell and described it as a place of horror. He said that it would be better to sever your own limb that might lead you there than to suffer what is there. It is also described as the grave, the pit, and the place of the dead. It is said that souls will burn forever in eternal torment and that this is the “second death.” It is said to be complete separation from God. The rewards in heaven for those who are faithful and trust in Jesus are described as being incomprehensibly great. The penalty for choosing the latter is apparently equally the reverse.

[markd_nscr986 0]

There is an overabundance of intolerance in the world......inlcluding religious, ethnic,nationalistic,enviromental and as I see in these forums all to often...political!!I have had alleged Christians tell me that I am going to Hell for being a Buddhist!!I replied....Hell what Hell?I will still continue to chant for their spiritual development and enlightenment!!!!

Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004

[Nightingale 0]

Have you ever seen someone go through the process of questioning their own sexuality? Have you witnessed the agony that many people go through with the conflict between their own desires and society's "norm"?

[pajarito 0]

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I think that the reason you "don't know the whole answer to that" is that there is no adequate response to that citation of flaw in the Christian mythos. "All children of god will be given the chance to follow or reject" except those that god forgot, somewhere in a different corner of the world. I have never seen an explanation of what happens to people who simply had the "misfortune" of living in a place where word of Jesus Christ never reached, or was prohibited from reaching. Through no fault of their own, those unreached people are doomed to not reach heaven? How fair is that?!

I gave an answer. You just can’t accept what the Bible says. Nothing happens without God's prior knowledge. Everything is according to his plan. God is in control.

That is where the difference between you and me lies. You still go on believing in all of what I call "this mythology" in spite of where it falters logically, and I say that if an infallible god were really responsible for it, there would be no flaws and it would all hold up perfectly, leaving no gaps for questioning or doubt. But then you just come back with the catch-all of "you have to have faith." How convenient. Faith is what is required of me wherever your story doesn't hold up. Nice.

There are no flaws in God. There are, however, flaws in humans. Just because you don’t understand all that is described in the Bible doesn’t mean that it isn’t true. God, who created the universe (think about that), is incomprehensible to us. The Bible was given to us in order to provide an understanding but not necessarily a complete understanding. If that weren’t the case and you could know everything about everything, you’d be equal with God which you are not. Even to assume that level of understanding is achievable by us would be the height of human pride and arrogance.

Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me if you understand. Job 38:2-4

[WrongWay 0]

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The “gay pride” marchers are demonstrating their beliefs just as the religious demonstrators are.

Wrong. The "gay pride" marchers are coming together in celebration of their own beliefs, NOT for the purpose of telling others that their beliefs are wrong and immoral, and that they'll burn in hell for it. These Christian "wackos" are just that because they are prejudiced and closed minded to the real world around them. Sadly, these days they only use their Jesus and their Bible as a means to attack those who are unbelievers or those who are different from them in society, as in this case.

I don't believe your Jesus was the son of God, but I don't stand outside your church with signs saying you're a bunch of idiots for believing in such things, now do I? Even if I did believe in such things, I don't think Jesus would approve of such hateful actions, and if he did, I wouldn't want to worship any cruel deity like that.

Tell me I'm going to hell for this and you'll only confirm everything I just said, so go ahead and prove me right.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[pajarito 0]

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Have you ever seen someone go through the process of questioning their own sexuality? Have you witnessed the agony that many people go through with the conflict between their own desires and society's "norm"?

As a man, I resist my natural impulse of infidelity every day. Not just in the physical sense. In the mind. Just as bad in God's eyes.

[pajarito 0]

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I don't believe your Jesus was the son of God, but I don't stand outside your church with signs saying you're a bunch of idiots for believing in such things, now do I?

As is your choice. I've got no problem with that. Good luck.

[WrongWay 0]

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You just can’t accept what the Bible says.

Excuse us for not being so cold as to basing our lives off of some book written by men two thousand years ago that promotes hate towards gays, women, non-believers of god, people who drink, people of other religions and countries, etc.......

I guess a sense of morality based on what is right and wrong in the real world will just not live up to your all-knowing ancient book. Our loss I suppose.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[pajarito 0]

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Excuse us for not being so cold as to basing our lives off of some book written by men two thousand years ago that promotes hate towards gays, women, non-believers of god, people who drink, people of other religions and countries, etc.......

I guess a sense of morality based on what is right and wrong in the real world will just not live up to your all-knowing ancient book. Our loss I suppose.

Not trying to be hostile here dude. If you want to instead base your morality from society comprised of people with flawed character, that's your choice. As I said before, I've got no problem with you believing how you wish. Good luck with that. Your description of the Bible, however, show a lack of knowledge and understanding of what it's truly all about.

[WrongWay 0]

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I don't believe your Jesus was the son of God, but I don't stand outside your church with signs saying you're a bunch of idiots for believing in such things, now do I?

As is your choice. I've got no problem with that. Good luck.

I think you're missing the point. I'm saying we "non-believers" make it our choice to NOT push hate on Christians, and they still come at us with all they have. Do you honestly think any act of hate can be justified because it comes from a Christian source?

If so, I pity you, friend.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[pajarito 0]

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Wrong. The "gay pride" marchers are coming together in celebration of their own beliefs, NOT for the purpose of telling others that their beliefs are wrong and immoral, and that they'll burn in hell for it.

They wish to make it clear that they exist and in considerable numbers, more than many ethnic minorities that exist in the US. And they want equal rights.

This quote above from kelpdiver concerning the “gay pride” marches/gatherings/block parties, whatever you want to call them, leads me to believe that they are pushing a political agenda and not just gathering to broil hamburger over the grill.