[Edit]Know Your Enemy: [peace-loving moslem fundamentalists] Doctrine and Order of Battle

[billvon 2,998]

>How do you fight an ememy that does not care if he wins as long as
> he takes a bunch of you out, he is doing his mission? This is not
> about land, or money. Its about them securing a place in the after
> life.

There are far right wing terrorists who kill doctors here in the US so they get into heaven. They quote the bible regularly. Fortunately, they are a very small minority. I work with several arabs from Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia etc and from my conversations with them, the people who believe in the virgin thing are in the minority as well.

So are we willing to kill ten million people to get 10,000? If we are, we are no better than the 9/11 hijackers.

>You are walking down some street in Iraq. A crowd starts to split. In
> the middle of this split is a group of women and children. You are
> taking fire, not from them, but from the gunners HIDING behind
> them and shooting from between their legs. They are using the
> women and children as COVER. And the women are not being held
> there...They are standing there as a human shield....Do you shoot
> back?

Yes, you do. And you pay for it for the rest of your life, if you have any soul at all. (Side note - I find it fascinating that people are crucifying Kerry for admitting to doing such things. Sometimes in war you have to do bad things.)

>It may simply come to one of us...Christains or radical Muslims will
> have to dissapear.

If it comes to that, we have failed. And you're kidding yourself if you think that radical muslims could kill even .1% of the people of the US. If we exterminate them down to the last muslim to protect us from our fears? Then we deserve the same fate.

>When one side decides to declare war based on religion, not money
>or land...Then it will not end till one of the religions are gone.

The Crusades ended. These wars will too.

[Casurf1978 0]

Nothing against RAND, but to understand AQ and millitant Islamic fundamentalist through a 46 page power point presentation and bullet points. Sorry to be so blunt but that presentation is nonesense. You really want to start to understand AQ, UBL read Inside Al Queda by Rohan Gunaratna.

[Ron 10]

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There are far right wing terrorists who kill doctors here in the US so they get into heaven. They quote the bible regularly. Fortunately, they are a very small minority. I work with several arabs from Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia etc and from my conversations with them, the people who believe in the virgin thing are in the minority as well.

The difference is that those nut cases are killing specific people for actions those people did. The Islamic nutbags want to kill me for not praying to the same god.

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So are we willing to kill ten million people to get 10,000? If we are, we are no better than the 9/11 hijackers.

They are willing to kill as many as they need. All I'm saying is those that wish to harm us will have to be destroyed..I never said to kill all muslims..I said we are going to have to exterminate the radicals. They will never quit.

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Yes, you do. And you pay for it for the rest of your life, if you have any soul at all.

I don't think you do..they chose their fate.

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(Side note - I find it fascinating that people are crucifying Kerry for admitting to doing such things. Sometimes in war you have to do bad things.)

Doing bad things when you have to, and doing bad things cause you can are different. Besides I don't want any man who when he has all that power to be a man that has willingly killed innocent people with his own hands, cause he could. And then lied about it for political gain. Very different.

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If it comes to that, we have failed.

If it comes to that then we were forced.

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And you're kidding yourself if you think that radical muslims could kill even .1% of the people of the US.

They don't need to kill 1% to get my attention...3000 people was enough,and knowing they would kill 3,000 a day if we let them is enough.

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If we exterminate them down to the last muslim to protect us from our fears? Then we deserve the same fate.

You are saying Muslims...And I amsaying Islamic extremists..There is a big differeance between the two. Just like there is abig difference between a Christain and a Dr. killer.

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The Crusades ended. These wars will too.

The battles ended...But the War is still raging today. Or do you think the whole Isam Vs. Jew's/Christian's is a new thing?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[TypicalFish 0]

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When one side decides to declare war based on religion, not money or land...Then it will not end till one of the religions are gone.

This seems to be a common misconception; the war IS in fact about land. They don't want to "kill us because we do not pray to the same God". Their war is about our (the U.S.) presence in what they perceive to be "their" holy land. Is this justification? Absolutely not; I am as much a globalist as anyone else. But make no mistake that is we stayed on our side of the pond, it wouldn't be an issue. Should we? Personally, no, I do not think so. I think the presence of the U.S. in various nation/states provides a valuable stabilizing influence. But to state that they hate us because we are Christian is wholly incorrect. One of the pillars of the Islamic faith is that ALL people of "good character" are worthy of heaven; no matter WHAT they worship. Jehovah, Dogs, Idols, it makes no difference. An attitude distinctly lacking in the Christian faith (I personally am methodist, btw, though I do admit to a dissatisfaction with some aspects of organized religion).

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET

[Guest]

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Could it be that you realize the indefensibility of that position?

Not really, but it's too much of a distraction. Use a slang term to identify a group, and the PC police get their hackles up. My point wasn't to troll the PC police (though I guess it should have been - heh), so I edited it out.

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 2,998]

>The Islamic nutbags want to kill me for not praying to the same god.

A few do. Then again, a few christians (including some right here on this board!) want to kill muslims for not praying to the same god.

>They are willing to kill as many as they need. All I'm saying is those
> that wish to harm us will have to be destroyed..I never said to kill al
>l muslims..I said we are going to have to exterminate the radicals.
> They will never quit.

I agree that anyone who tries to cause us harm has to be stopped (arrested, jailed, killed, doesn't really matter.) However, those who MIGHT cause us harm? That's not sufficient. Knowing someone is pissed off at the US is no reason to kill them and their family.

>Doing bad things when you have to, and doing bad things cause you
> can are different.

So you feel the US has to kill, rape and torture prisoners?

>Besides I don't want any man who when he has all
> that power to be a man that has willingly killed innocent people with
> his own hands, cause he could.

He killed people because he was ordered to.

>And then lied about it for political gain. Very different.

?? He is being crucified because he ADMITTED to doing things that he later felt were wrong. Had he lied none of this would be an issue.

>The battles ended...But the War is still raging today. Or do you think
>the whole Isam Vs. Jew's/Christian's is a new thing?

Not at all. And we have been much worse than the radical muslims have been. However, we've been living with it for 2000 years. We can live with it for another 10.

[Mak 0]

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Not really, but it's too much of a distraction. Use a slang term to identify a group, and the PC police get their hackles up. My point wasn't to troll the PC police (though I guess it should have been - heh), so I edited it out.

mh

.

That's pretty convenient. So you're calling it a "slang term" now? Have you considered that some of the readers on this board may be objecting not as members of the PC police but as members of the "raghead" community (or other "slang terms" as you now call them)? There are many other "slang terms " I'm sure you don't bandy about quite as flippantly.

Honestly - would you try to defend your definition of a raghead to an Arab friend? If not, you should ask yourself why you use it online.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Don't correct your geography? Why? It was wrong. Black mark and loose one house point

Let's nitpick grammar, spelling and usage while we're at it, then. I think you meant "lose," not "loose."

-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Ron 10]

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A few do. Then again, a few christians (including some right here on this board!) want to kill muslims for not praying to the same god.

I only want to kill the nutbags that want to kill me....I could not care if they are Muslim or not. However, the Muslim nutbags would kill me given the chance even though I am not religious.

Simple way to live life...Leave me alone, and I will leave you alone. Mess with me, and I'll kill you.

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I agree that anyone who tries to cause us harm has to be stopped (arrested, jailed, killed, doesn't really matter.) However, those who MIGHT cause us harm? That's not sufficient. Knowing someone is pissed off at the US is no reason to kill them and their family.

No its not enough to just be pissed off.. But to raise arms against us, or fund or support terroism against us, IS enough for me.

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So you feel the US has to kill, rape and torture prisoners?

I think a lot of that is sick individuals that are given absolute power over another..It happens all the time. Also having served in the military I can attest that we didn't get the best training. It was not bad, but it was not the best. And even the best training is nothing compared to war. I don't know how I would handle a guy that killed my friends.

How would you handle a known killer of Americans...Lets say you were the guard that was watching over the Iraq's that killed, hung and burned the people in Fulijah (SP?). And I told you that sleep depravation and humiliation were allowed?...

I can see how people could get carried away, that does not mean I approve of it, but I do understand it.

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?? He is being crucified because he ADMITTED to doing things that he later felt were wrong. Had he lied none of this would be an issue.

He did lie about it...Either back then he lied about what he did and saw, or he is lying today about him not doing all of that...Both ways he is lying for political gain.

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Not at all. And we have been much worse than the radical muslims have been. However, we've been living with it for 2000 years. We can live with it for another 10.

Oh so just cause its been going on for 2000 years we should not do anything about it?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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This seems to be a common misconception; the war IS in fact about land. They don't want to "kill us because we do not pray to the same God". Their war is about our (the U.S.) presence in what they perceive to be "their" holy land.

Wrong didn't you post OBLs' letter to America?

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(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?
(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.
It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.
(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.
(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.
(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.
We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.
(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:
(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?
(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.
(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.
(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.
Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?
(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.
(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.
(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.
(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.
(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.
(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.
(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?
(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

Seems like more than just land to me. Seems like he is telling us to convert or die.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[TypicalFish 0]

Again, as in everything else, see the letter in its intent and context. The problem they have with us is not so much who we are within our own borders, it is the fact that we are those people (in the extremist's view) within the borders of what they consider to be their holy land. As I have stated before, this is in no way exculpatory or some form of justification; BUT, if we are going to talk about it let's talk about what the issues really are besides "They hate us because we are Christian" or "Because we are free."

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET

[billvon 2,998]

>Simple way to live life...Leave me alone, and I will leave you alone.
>Mess with me, and I'll kill you.

Not a bad philosophy, as long as you don't extend it to "scare me and I'll kill you."

>Oh so just cause its been going on for 2000 years we should not do
>anything about it?

No, we should. But we lived through 2000 years of it. The world won't end tomorrow if we don't come up with a "final solution" by then.

[andybr6 0]

I dont think that there has EVER been a purely religious war. Even the crusades of over a thousand years ago were more to do plundering wealth. Religion has however, often been used to justify a war to the protaganists. I believe that for OBL and other 'senior' extremists turning the war into a Jihad is just a means to an end. As TypicalFish said it is more over land and US influence than religion; by turning it into a religoius war poeple like OBl can muster an army of soldiers willing to die for them. When a country such as Britain or the US goes to war it can appeal to nationalism to both justify the war and the deaths of the soldiers. E.g. that we are under threat from WMD's in the possesion of Iraq. OBL cannot appeal to nationalism as his followers are confined within a religiious belief system rather than physical borders. To see the war as simply a few religious extremists trying to destroy christianity is a massive over-simplification; it is how OBL wants his followers to see the war.

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"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[Skyrad 0]

Big deal, so I'm dyslexic. Eat me!

My spelling and grammar don't have anythiing to do with the point I'm making. His lack of knowledge of the geographical region that he used to justify his argument does. Its a simple concept, I'm suprised that you didn't grasp it.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

'Nuke every Islamic country in the middle east and be done with it.

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It may come down to that. '

yea, thats a real brain gem. Ever thought that we live in a spinning bubble of an atmosphere? Ever considered what the consequence of using enough Nukes to destroy the Muslim world would do to the rest of it? Or were you just spouting off?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Ron 10]

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BUT, if we are going to talk about it let's talk about what the issues really are besides "They hate us because we are Christian" or "Because we are free."

But one of the reasons they hate us is Cause we are Christain...And they think we are corrupt. They also feel that it is their duty to convert or kill us.

OBL's letter makes that quite clear.

Now if we didn't support the occupation of what they consider to be the holy land (Which everyone seems to think they own). If we did not have a presence in their lands...

Well it would DELAY the fighting. But the extremeists do hate us, and feel they need to kill us.

So it's now instead of later.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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>Simple way to live life...Leave me alone, and I will leave you alone.
>Mess with me, and I'll kill you.

Not a bad philosophy, as long as you don't extend it to "scare me and I'll kill you."

Did I say scare me? But there is a line between threat and having done damage I would rather be on the safe side of.

I would have rather prevented 9/11 then reacted to it.

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No, we should. But we lived through 2000 years of it. The world won't end tomorrow if we don't come up with a "final solution" by then.

No, but the lives of the people killed while we wait...their world does end.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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It may come down to that. '

yea, thats a real brain gem. Ever thought that we live in a spinning bubble of an atmosphere? Ever considered what the consequence of using enough Nukes to destroy the Muslim world would do to the rest of it? Or were you just spouting off?

Well the world didn't end from the two on Japan now did it?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Skyrad 0]

The two on Japan were tiny in comparison to the modern weapons (Not including Battle field tact Nuclear Weapons) The amount needed to destroy the entire Muslim world would also destroy the rest of it.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[andybr6 0]

First of all: the atomic weapons that we have now are many times more powerful than the ones dropped on Japan. This has significance for the environment on a global scale not to mention the fact that it would give every nation in the world the desire to own nuclear weapons so that they would feel safe.

Secondly: here we are not figting a country we are fighting a series of minority groups within many countries. You cant wipe our whole civilisations becasue of the actions of a few.

Finaly: it would not work even if the 'offending' countries were attacked with 'unconventional weapons'. You cannot kill an ideal with a bullet or a bomb, by using nuclear weapons you would be proving every single extremist muslim terrorist in every country right!

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"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[Ron 10]

Did I say to use them? No I said "It may come down to that"

Fact is I think we are all fucked.

I think that this war between Muslim extremists and the people they attack will plundge us into a world war. Muslim VS Christian.

They are trying to get nuclear weapons...some say they have them (Which I don't buy into...If they had them, they would have used them already.)

It will take one side eradicating the other. Im not saying lets nuke them...but I am saying they are not going to go away, or leave us alone.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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First of all: the atomic weapons that we have now are many times more powerful than the ones dropped on Japan. This has significance for the environment on a global scale

Actually, that's not true anymore. During the beginning days of the cold war we were looking for mutual complete destructive power to keep each other in check. The nuclear arsenal today is much more on the lines of small tactical nukes including those that can be fired by aritllery.

[andybr6 0]

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I think that this war between Muslim extremists and the people they attack will plundge us into a world war. Muslim VS Christian.

There are not enough Muslim extremists to do that! Extremists by their very nature are a minority. Security forces all over the world are combating these extremists and making significant arrests. I am not saying that it will go away but it is being dealt with. Although the islamic extremism is an old threat and we are learning more and more about the way they operate and so are becoming more able to combat the threat.

It is not a war of Christianity vs Islam. What ever happened to the seperation of Church and State? If anything it is democracy vs dictatorship or religous orthadoxy vs capitalism. The whole of the west is not Christian and OBL knows this; religion is once again being used to manipulate the minds of ignorant people to get a higher authority to do what they want.

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"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[wmw999 2,452]

Something to consider, though, is that even if we drop tiny little baby nukes, we are no longer the only ones with nukes.

They've been a line that no one has crossed, in part because of the potential for retaliatory bombing to destroy the world. Once that line is crossed, I don't think that others will be as judicious. And once we (that would be humans, not Americans, Iraqis, or any other nationality) have begun going down that pipe, I'm scared about what will emerge at the other end.

Of course, then, as a world, we'll have a much bigger problem to solve, and humans have proved that they can work together to solve massive problems. It's only when the problems are small that they can solve their own at the expense of others' problems.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Ron 10]

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There are not enough Muslim extremists to do that!

There are enough that the US went into Afganistan.
There are enough that there has been hundreds of years of bloodshed over the "holy land".

Seems to be that there is enough.

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It is not a war of Christianity vs Islam

No, its a war of Islam extremists vs anyone thats not an Islamic extremist.

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What ever happened to the seperation of Church and State?

If one side attacks another over religion, and the other just defends itself and destroys the threat. all the time not caring about any religious aspect of it...As long as one side keeps fighting in the name of God..Its a religious war.

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The whole of the west is not Christian and OBL knows this; religion is once again being used to manipulate the minds of ignorant people to get a higher authority to do what they want.

Maybe OBL has other motives...(As do ALL religious leaders in my opinion) but they guys who flew the jets into the towers were doing it in the name of Allah, not to end dictatorship, capitalism, ect...they did it in the name of God, and that makes it religious.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334