[Edit]Know Your Enemy: [peace-loving moslem fundamentalists] Doctrine and Order of Battle

[wmw999 2,452]

I hope you're not including the Crusades as war that Muslim extremists started. That falls largely on Christian heads. Yes, they were a long time ago, but any reference to "hundreds of years" involves stuff a long time ago.

The Spanish kicking the Moors out of Spain wasn't exactly started by the Moors, either.

All I'm trying to say is that both sides have a history. Any group that thinks it has "the answer" has a chance of eventually enforcing that answer if it gains enough power. What works for individuals works for societies and people, too.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Skyrad 0]

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No, its a war of Islam extremists vs anyone thats not an Islamic extremist.

Very near but not quite. Its actualy a war waged by Sunni Muslim extremists Vs anyone thats not a Sunni muslim extremist. There is also Shiite extreamists but they do not figure in the loose grouping of assorted terror organisations that are collectivly know as Al Queeda. This means that if this so called war is viewed by those in the west as a war of Christianity against Islam they have totaly simplified the issue and missed the point.
If these extreamists are to be defeated it must be done with the active assistance of Islamic countries. Including countries like Pakistan which is a Sunni country.
The west needs to build bridges with the moderates in the Islamic world not lump everyone together as the 'raghead' enemy.
Muslim countries are part of the coalition and have captured more 'Al Queeda ' operators than most western allies including the US.
However pictures of the coalition forces abusing prisoners, Hellicopter gunships and tanks being used in residential areas, stories of coalition forces killing civvies, Torture, and even the fact that the coalition does not keep any account of civillian casualties does Osama Bin Ladens recruitment job for him while undermining those in the Islamic world that would like to wipe the extremists off the face of the planet.

An interesting (though still a bit simplistic) article
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1213874,00.html

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Ron 10]

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This means that if this so called war is viewed by those in the west as a war of Christianity against Islam

Last time I'm going to type this here.

To be a religious war you only need one side "doing it for God". The Muslim estremists...In your view the Sunni's only, are waging a JIHAD (A religious term) against anyone not Muslim.

All I have ever said is the MUSLIM EXTREMISTS will need to be wipped out. Not ALL muslims, but the ones that wish to engauge in JIHAD.

And yes pictures of kids with both arms being blow off will not make our job easier and it will make Al Queeda's much simpler.

Just as the next AQ attack on the US will encite us to push harder.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Skyrad 0]

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The Muslim estremists...In your view the Sunni's only, are waging a JIHAD (A religious term) against anyone not Muslim.

Incorrect, only Sunnis are part of Al Queeda. That is why Shiite Mosques and Muslims have been targeted in Pakistan and elsewhere. However ALL Muslims are engaged in Jihad. The problem is not Jihad the problem is that simplistic people hijacked the term to mean what they want it to without regard for the complexities of language translation. Jihad is not a word that has a direct single word translation into English. All Muslims are engaged in Jihad primarily aimed at themselves. Unfortunately until people stop seeing in black and white (Good guys and Bad guys) things will only get worse.



http://www.ict.org.il/articles/jihad.htm

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Ron 10]

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Incorrect, only Sunnis are part of Al Queeda

Al Queeda are not the only people killing people. Think west bank.

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However ALL Muslims are engaged in Jihad.

Yes, yes Jihad has two parts self and others...I could not care about people doing anything to themselves, I DO have an issue with a guy strapping a bomb on himself and killing peope at a bus stop....Thats not an internal Jihad. You know exactly what form of Jihad I was talking about.

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Unfortunately until people stop seeing in black and white (Good guys and Bad guys) things will only get worse.

Hey, as soon as they quit trying to kill me I'll quit trying to defend myself by killing them.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Skyrad 0]

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Hey, as soon as they quit trying to kill me I'll quit trying to defend myself by killing them.

"HE'S BEHIND YOU!!!"

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Guest]

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Unfortunately until people stop seeing in black and white (Good guys and Bad guys) things will only get worse.

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/jihad.htm

I think it is black and white. UBL's manifesto pretty much calls on America to "submit to Allah" (with UBL in charge, of course).

Given a choice of us or them, I choose us. It's pretty simple, really.

They're mostly nuts over there.

All this pablum about Moslem culture being a beacon of enlightenment when Europe was in the Dark Ages is true.

However, that was about a thousand years ago when the Church WAS the state.

Now the reverse is true. UBL and his kind want to take humanity into some dark past, where only a few religious leaders had any control over their own lives, and everyone else lived in fear, ignorance, and squalor.

Sorry, UBL, but your religion is a dead end for mankind.

However, I don't think Islam is "under attack" as much as people are sick of being told what to do and how to think and what to believe, and guess what - they're thinking FOR THEMSELVES. This simple concept terrifies tinpots like UBL, who get absolutely apoplectic at the thought of a woman actually speaking her own mind in public.

Arabs and muslims are living in sick, twisted fairyland. Their culture is dying out, and they know it. That's why the radical elements are lashing out - they're losing control. In a warped way, I'm somewhat sympathetic. I see civilized, enlightened Western society being torn down every day, and being replaced with ghetto culture.

However, all I saw in UBL's manifesto is how naughty we (USA) are (Kyoto Treaty and all that) - UBL and his kind have had nothing but a steady diet of bile all their lives, so it's unsurprising that nothing of merit (and nothing we don't already know about) is contained within its text.

Recent terror attacks in Saudi Arabia were blamed on "Zionists". They can't bring themselves to think that some of their own countrymen don't like the family the country is named after. This is a classic symptom of the backwardness of Arabic culture. Nothing's going to change until some self-examination takes place over there, and they stop blaming everyone else for the problems in their culture.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 2,998]

>Given a choice of us or them, I choose us. It's pretty simple, really.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. They will never conquer us. We have the power to obliterate them. That gives us a greater responsibility to not commit genocide.

>They're mostly nuts over there.

No more so than Timothy McVeigh, US army torturers, the Unabomber etc make us mostly nuts over here.

>Sorry, UBL, but your religion is a dead end for mankind.

Again, no more so than christianity. The Irish have used religion as a reason to kill for hundreds of years. That doesn't make christianity a dead end.

And if you do consider it a dead end, one that must end for peace to come to the world? You might just be well on your way to becoming a religious extremist of the same type you describe. How would you describe a muslim who believes christianity must end, and doesn't like the US?

>Arabs and muslims are living in sick, twisted fairyland. Their culture
> is dying out, and they know it. That's why the radical elements are
> lashing out - they're losing control. In a warped way, I'm somewhat
> sympathetic. I see civilized, enlightened Western society being torn
> down every day, and being replaced with ghetto culture.

So we are living in the same sick, twisted fairlyland that they are? That's not true of either culture.

>Recent terror attacks in Saudi Arabia were blamed on "Zionists".

And we blamed the anthrax attacks on Islamic extremists before we discovered the cultures came from US labs.

>Nothing's going to change until some self-examination takes place
> over there, and they stop blaming everyone else for the problems in
> their culture.

Exactly the same thing is true of us. A lot of americans see the US as a perfect place of enlightenment, innocence and altruism; all the problems come from foreign swarthy heathens. The reality is quite different. We generally do a pretty good job but we are far from the innocent angels many see us as.

[Guest]

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Exactly the same thing is true of us. A lot of americans see the US as a perfect place of enlightenment, innocence and altruism; all the problems come from foreign swarthy heathens. The reality is quite different. We generally do a pretty good job but we are far from the innocent angels many see us as.

Bill,

Yes, we're all human and we all make mistakes. Those with enormous amounts of power tend to make colossal mistakes, and it is ugly.

In these debates, we often pass comparisons back and forth, and the majority of it seems to be a kind of moral equivalency; that is, that no value system is better than any other. I tend to disagree, in this respect:

After 9-11, I saw a lot of self-examination, along the lines of "Why do they hate us?".

If there is such self-examination and / or self-criticism going on over there, I'm not seeing very much of it.

BTW - the Middle East is chockful of Timothy McVeighs, and they're all spineless cowards just like he was.

Way before 9/11, I discussed some of these issues with an associate of mine, and I said that to much of the world, the US is a 'brand'. There is a lot of economic and cultural pollution that goes out from here, and quite frankly, if all I knew of America was what I saw on a movie or television screen, I'd hate it too.

Americans are ignorant of much of the world, it's true, but I submit that much of the world (especially the sick and twisted Arab/Moslem world) is ignorant of us as well.

BTW I saw this morning that an American hostage was decapitated on video by some [INSERT 'PEACE-LOVING MOSLEM FUNDAMENTALISTS'], which I'll abbreviate as RIFWs.

I suppose that in the spectrum of moral equivalency, this was a courageous act.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 2,998]

>After 9-11, I saw a lot of self-examination, along the lines of "Why
>do they hate us?".

Yes, and most of the answers are absurd. "Because they hate freedom and we love freedom." "Because they want to kill all christians." "Because they are jealous of our democracy and our wealth."

>If there is such self-examination and / or self-criticism going on over
>there, I'm not seeing very much of it.

Sure there is. And many people came up with the same stupid, absurd answers. "Because Americans only want our oil." "Because they hate muslims."

>Americans are ignorant of much of the world, it's true, but I submit
> that much of the world (especially the sick and twisted Arab/Moslem
> world) is ignorant of us as well.

Now that I agree with! There is a lot of ignorance on both sides. Reducing that ignorance would go a long way to stopping the violence on both sides.

>I suppose that in the spectrum of moral equivalency, this was a
>courageous act.

It was no more courageous than Timothy McVeigh's, Ted Kaczynski's, or Dylan Klebold's acts.

[alpha 0]

To whome it may concern
==================

We are screwed by extremists - on both sides.

Yet another PA deleted.

[Michele 1]

I just read through this decidedly odd thread, and have little to say.

What I will say is examine Wahhabism, and there you'll locate some significant answers to your questions (everyone....).

Until people understand Wahhabism, they will continually lump all of Islam into one catagory; it would be similar to ascribe one thought process to Judeo/Christianity. Or similarly, that all "Christians" are the same.

That being said, if one does not bother learning the significant and easily understood differences between Wahhabism and Islam, you get the sectarian bigotry I've seen on this thread - from both ends.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[racer42 0]

Sunni, Shia, Hannafi, Sufi mystics, Lebanese Druze, to some degree Sikhs are all branches of a larger faith called Islam.
Most Muslims I have met in the Middle East are devoted to faith and family and doing a little business. Culturally we are very different east and west and the gap grows larger everyday. Some cooler heads and smarter defense policies will help to solve an expanding and very dangerous misundestanding that dates back a hundred years. asfar as the "raghead" term is concerned, where I lived it was called a khaffiyah. Arab dress in general is very practical and efficient considering the climate. If you have ever experienced a two week sand storm, a "raghead "is very handy for keeping sand and sun off of your head and out of your face. I mean the stuff gets everywhere.

L.A.S.T. #24
Co-Founder Biscuit Brothers Freefly Team
Electric Toaster #3
Co-Founder Team Non Sequitor
Co-Founder Team Happy Sock

[Mak 0]

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Sunni, Shia, Hannafi, Sufi mystics, Lebanese Druze, to some degree Sikhs are all branches of a larger faith called Islam.

Sikhism has very little to do with Islam other than having evolved at a time when Islam was spreading into the Indian subcontinent. The faith is very different from Islam and some Sikhs would be very offended at being called a branch of Islam.

[Guest]

It's called "tolerance", dear.

However, although tolerance <> approval, a lot of people seem to confuse the two.

Since throwing this grenade into Speaker's Corner a few days ago (which I now regret, because my purpose was to inform, and not to inflame. I allowed my feelings about the war to get the better of me, and for those who were offended by my remarks, I apologize), I've been indirectly referred to by several racist epithets. Guess a White European Male is always fair game, and the PC-police "tolerance" rules don't apply.

Respectfully,

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[racer42 0]

Agreed.

L.A.S.T. #24
Co-Founder Biscuit Brothers Freefly Team
Electric Toaster #3
Co-Founder Team Non Sequitor
Co-Founder Team Happy Sock

[Darius11 12]

WOW

I am saddened at the level of hate and ignorance by some in this thread.
I am Muslim I was born in Iran and I am proud of both those facts.
So am I a Raghead ? How about sand nigger?

Pick one witch ever you like. When I hear terms like that I have to remind my self that the person who speaks of ANY RACE in those terms is not even worth a second of my life.
I just wish we could stop them from reproducing. The last thing we need is more ignorant children brought up to hate.

The level of stupidity is crazy. WHER DO SOME OF YOU GET YOUR FACTS?
Stop looking at the exceptions
Muslims hate Christian and Jews WTF are you talking about?
Islam Is the ONLY religion that believes in both Moses and Jesus not to mention we believe there was over a 1000 profits. It is a religion that believes if you are fundamentally a good person you will go to haven.

Should I really get in too the exceptions. The extremists? There everywhere Christian, Muslim, and Jewish. If you are STUPID enough just to look at them then that’s your mistake.

I think it is obvious that you are WRONG if you judge any race, religion, or a nation by the act of a few of it’s members.

Do we look at all of are soldiers now and think they are all torturers. No we don’t we or some of us are smart enough to know there is good and bad every where. Lets not put them in the same category.

One more fact.

The US is not hated because Christianity is the major religion. We are hated because of our foreign policies. In Iran (the Islamic republic of Iran) my friends who are Christians live freely and there rights are respected. In a country that there is no alcoholic beverages allowed. They are allowed to party and drink all they want.

Please get your facts right. Yes I agree any extremist is an idiot Christine, Muslim, Jewish, Satan worshiper what ever. We should not categorize a majority because of the actions of a few.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[wmw999 2,452]

Darius, you totally rock.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[TypicalFish 0]

My turn to say it to YOU, Darius. Excellent post. Cutting through the rhetorical b#$%&@!t; I have never heard so many people "justifying" near-racism, bigotry, and xenophobia. Rock on.

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET

[Guest]

Dude,

Relax. You might be a muslim, but you're not an Arab, or Sunni Wahabist. They're the ones who are causing all the trouble, and they're the ones we're trying to send to Allah.

No one is attacking you.

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Guest]

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Darius, you totally rock.

Wendy W.

He rocks literally. Have you checked out his website?

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[racer42 0]

Well said.

L.A.S.T. #24
Co-Founder Biscuit Brothers Freefly Team
Electric Toaster #3
Co-Founder Team Non Sequitor
Co-Founder Team Happy Sock

[wmw999 2,452]

You don't have to attack him personally by name for him to feel offended by some of the attacks.

Heck, I'm not a muslima, and I'm offended. I don't think I was the intended target, either.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)