Dumb Move, GWB

[pajarito 0]

PhillyKev: I'm not attempting to take anything out of context. However, I'm also not going to get into another Biblical argument with you. We've already been through that (about 18 pages worth). I was just stating my personal views. I also said that I didn't think the argument over same-sex marriage should include religion at all. I said that it didn't need to and shouldn't in reference to its legitimacy in government.

christelsabine: Your last sentence is a personal attack and I would expect it to be deleted. That is if there's fairness in this moderation.

This thread should not be hijacked by turning it into another religious debate. Been there...done that.

[christelsabine 1]

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christelsabine: Your last sentence is a personal attack and I would expect it to be deleted. That is if there's fairness in this moderation.

If it has to be deleted, I will accept and apologize in order to respect the DZ rules.

Let's say in other words:

Let's not say it in any words. Last warning. Attack the message, not the person.

We simply will go on loving this guy the way he is. Since years, no one ever asked any question. He's welcome everywhere and this will not be changed. I just do hope, he never will meet any extremist.

He's simply great.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[pajarito 0]

Thanks christelsabine! Now, I'm an extremist who needs glasses.

[pajarito 0]

However, seeing as how this topic seems to be split down the middle nationwide (speaking of the US; I see you're from Germany), I wouldn't say my views are "extremist" concerning this. I'd just say they differ from you and about half of everybody else in my country. Maybe they're "extremist" compared to the general view of homosexuality in Germany. I don't know that.

[christelsabine 1]

Of course, there is no "general view" of homosexuality in Germany!

The extremist was not addressed to you, I'm sorry.

I simpy would like to express:
This young guy, which I consider particularly like my own sun, upon reading your posts should be treated HOW? What to tell him?

How will YOU treat him?? Would you give up the friendship with his mother? Prohibit your son from meeting his friend ??

Kindly let me know, stranger, perhaps I've got to learn something.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[kelpdiver 2]

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>States don't get to reduce civil rights from those guaranteed
>federally. They can only expand upon them.

Agreed, but the right to marry whoever you choose is not guaranteed by the constitution. (Indeed, there are those who are trying to explicitly deny it via the constitution.)

Err, the Supreme Court has ruled the right to marry as a basic human right in overturning bans on interracial marriage. The wording was not gender specific. Going forward, it's been declared that incarcerated felons can also marry. If presented with two men, I'd expect that court to continue this stance.

With the current court, I have no idea. I'm still trying to figure out how McCain-Feingold is constitutional.

[billvon 2,998]

>Err, the Supreme Court has ruled the right to marry as a basic
> human right in overturning bans on interracial marriage. The
> wording was not gender specific.

I agree; that right just isn't guaranteed in the constitution. The supreme court has interpreted the constitution to mean that the right to marry is protected. I'd expect a further clarification on same-sex marriage from them eventually.

[pajarito 0]

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Of course, there is no "general view" of homosexuality in Germany!

What I meant was how many are for or against same-sex marriage in Germany? What’s the “general view” or average opinion?

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The extremist was not addressed to you, I'm sorry.

Kein Problem (is that correct?)

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I simpy would like to express:
This young guy, which I consider particularly like my own sun, upon reading your posts should be treated HOW? What to tell him?

It’s not your job or mine to tell him anything concerning his sexual preference. That’s his parent’s job.

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How will YOU treat him?? Would you give up the friendship with his mother? Prohibit your son from meeting his friend ??

I’d treat him like anyone else. I’d be friends with him. If I was you, I wouldn’t give up friendship with his mother. My kids are still very young and influential, however. I’d have a problem with his discussing his chosen lifestyle or feelings to the like with my sons (or daughter). I’d also have a problem with that kind of influence in my home. It doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t like the kid. I also wouldn’t want a person in an openly adulterous heterosexual lifestyle to express his/her views in my house or to my children.

[christelsabine 1]

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general view"

In W-Germany, we use to say: Phhh, don't mind, let everybody live live like he/she wants....

There are really are very few against such a marriage. In my company, the gay colleagues do not even try to hide themselves. We all know, they are gay. And nobody moves! What for!

"Kein Problem": Fully correct. Good German, hey

Who's job is it to tell a young guy (girl) what's their sexuality?? Not parents'job, simlpy no one can tell!
It's inside of them. The parents' influence will not change anything...

You do not want your little kids to have any touch with any gay one... Believe me, like you, I was not looking for that. But simply accepted (after a while ): this is a kid i like, I still love it, and over the years, everybody took a use on that.

Do you really think you will be able to protect your little kids? Sooner or later, they will know what it is.

We should not condemn gays.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[pajarito 0]

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Who's job is it to tell a young guy (girl) what's their sexuality?? Not parents'job, simlpy no one can tell!
It's inside of them. The parents' influence will not change anything...

It’s the parents job to instruct their child about sexuality when they get old enough. It’s also their job to instruct them about morality and how that relates to sexuality.

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You do not want your little kids to have any touch with any gay one... Believe me, like you, I was not looking for that. But simply accepted (after a while ): this is a kid i like, I still love it, and over the years, everybody took a use on that.

Do you really think you will be able to protect your little kids? Sooner or later, they will know what it is.

I just believe that you, as a parent, have to protect your kids as much as possible when they’re young and impressionable. There’s a lot out there that I don’t believe they should be exposed to until they’ve had time to mature enough to handle it.

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We should not condemn gays.

I don’t condemn gays and do not advocate anyone else doing so.

[mpsniper98 0]

i agree; but how does that bear on my post?

NBFT

[mpsniper98 0]

which bible are you talking about? the one that you wrote on a napkin doesn't count.

NBFT

[mpsniper98 0]

you can love someone and know that that person is making bad choices at the same time. this is offered as an example of why your post is not logical, not on the correctness of your friends choices.

NBFT

[billvon 2,998]

>i agree; but how does that bear on my post?

In 1950, most people were against interracial marriages. They were abominations, they were against god's will, they would destroy the family, they would pollute the purity of the races, it would be a stain on the fabric of society. Fast forward 50 years and we accept them without a second thought. In fact, if we found anyone _against_ interracial marriages, we'd think he was a racist kook.

Today we have people against same-sex marriages. They are abominations, two men are just - well - wrong, they will destroy the fabric of society, they are against god's will. I predict that if we fast forward another 50 years, they will be accepted, and anyone against same-sex marriages will be considered a homophobic kook.

There is something to be learned from looking at the issue from a 1950's viewpoint. Morals and society changes with time, and even when abominations like interracial marriages come to pass, society doesn't collapse. Fortunately for us, changes have been mostly for the good. Slavery was abolished, women can vote, blacks can marry whites, people cannot be discriminated against based on race. This will continue; the next barrier to fall will be the barriers against gays.

[mpsniper98 0]

that's what i said. i don't argue from a 1950's standpoint. i didn't say that it's bad to incorporate lessons learned through history.

NBFT

[pajarito 0]

- Stating that interracial marriage is wrong has no Biblical basis whatsoever.

- Stating that homosexuality is wrong absolutely does.

[billvon 2,998]

>Stating that interracial marriage is wrong has no Biblical basis whatsoever.

We've gone around this one before. You have decided that when the bible states that mingling the holy race with the peoples around them is sinful, it doesn't apply to modern times. That's fine. In the 1950's, people used that passage to argue against interracial marriage. Fine for them, too. The bible is surely open to interpretation. Heck, some people use it to justify killing doctors, and it has been used to justify killing a lot of muslims. It has also been used to do a lot of good.

The way I choose to interpet the bible, there are several very strong lessons that get repeated over and over:

-love your neighbor as yourself
-forgiveness is always preferable to revenge
-do not judge others if you desire not to be judged yourself

These are the primary messages of the new testament, to me. There are plenty of other laws/rules/commandments in the bible that, as you say, were more applicable to another people in ancient times (like the prohibition against working on the sabbath, or against eating shellfish, or the one that says god wants you to kill gays.)

Times change; we would no longer execute someone who worked on a sunday as an tandem master, even though that's one of god's ten commandments. We effectively ignore the word of god because society has changed, and working on sunday (or saturday, or whatever you consider the sabbath to be) is no longer seen as an affront to god. I ignore the parts of the bible that make no sense to me; I would not beat someone who works for me or imprison my wife just because the bible says I can do it. (Unless she wanted me to, of course. . .) Similarly, I ignore the provisions that say that homosexuality is sinful because they simply make no sense.

You can choose to interpret it a different way. Just be mindful that it is your interpretation, and it's no more or less valid than mine - and remember what the new testament says about judging others.

[Botellines 0]

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That picture surely is a repost

I am not sure wether you just want to ignore my post or you truly didn´t understand it, in case it is the last i will rephrase it.

If you follow ALL the guidelines in the Bible. I respect you for you believes and willpower (i would still think you are way wrong though)
If you disregard some of the law like forbidden animals, working on sabbath, etc you are giving your own interprtation of the bible, hence it is not the God´s word and therefore not a truism. You would just be using the bible to back up your personal and maybe flawed points of view.

[pajarito 0]

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That picture surely is a repost

I am not sure wether you just want to ignore my post or you truly didn´t understand it, in case it is the last i will rephrase it.

If you follow ALL the guidelines in the Bible. I respect you for you believes and willpower (i would still think you are way wrong though)
If you disregard some of the law like forbidden animals, working on sabbath, etc you are giving your own interprtation of the bible, hence it is not the God´s word and therefore not a truism. You would just be using the bible to back up your personal and maybe flawed points of view.

I can't follow all the "guidelines" given in the Bible to the letter. It's not possible for me. I can only do the best I can with the help of God. This is a repost of mine from way back. I kept it because this keeps coming up. It also ties in nicely with homosexuality.

The commands of the Old Testament are divided generally into moral law, ceremonial law and civil law. The moral law (e.g., the 10 commandments) remain in effect and few people would question that. The ceremonial law (sacrificing 2 oxen, etc.) was fulfilled in Jesus' sacrificial death and the New Testament teaches that it is not binding anymore. The civil law (stoning for adultry, etc.) was the law of the nation of Israel, which operated as a Theocracy, and is not the civil law of any other nation.

The argument about gay marriage is a deep, dark hole in the ground from which there is no escape until there is some common ground from which the discussions can spring. I can agree that we're not going to stone homosexuals, just as Jesus didn't pick up a stone and start stoning the woman caught in adultry. Jesus didn't condone her conduct (in fact, he said to her "Go and sin no more"); it's simply that everyone in the crowd (other than Jesus) was also guilty under Jesus' standard (if you've looked at a woman and lusted after her in your heart, you've committed adultry). Interestingly, stoning for adultry was not acceptable under Roman law at that time and Jesus would have actually violated the civil law if he agreed to the stoning.

If one doe not agree that homosexual behavior is morally wrong, then an argument about whether society should accept homosexual marriage is pretty much going to have to sit on the shifting sands of whatever is "acceptable" to society. I think the past 30 or 40 years have demonstrated exactly how quickly society will slide down that slippery slope - e.g., euthanasia, child abuse, pedophilia, pornography, divorce, abortion, spousal abuse, murder, assault, etc. Depending on the topic, most folks, when confronted with the ugly statistics, will agree that we need to draw some fast and hard lines as to what conduct is criminal. Unfortunately, without a biblical basis, we're stuck with the "whatever society wants" standard.

Bottom line is the goal of the homosexual community isn’t just marriage and state benefits. It’s the normalization of an obscene practice. Define marriage as the union of one man and one woman and be done with it.

[PhillyKev 0]

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I can't follow all the "guidelines" given in the Bible to the letter. It's not possible for me. I can only do the best I can with the help of God.

And you choose which guidelines to follow. You are choosing to be biased against homosexuals.

Enough with the personal attacks! See the sticky post at the top of the page.

[pajarito 0]

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I can't follow all the "guidelines" given in the Bible to the letter. It's not possible for me. I can only do the best I can with the help of God.

And you choose which guidelines to follow. You are choosing to be biased against homosexuals. Stop blaming the bible for your bigotry.

I think you've completely missed any point I've ever tried to make concerning the Bible and this topic. How am I a bigot for thinking that homosexuality is wrong? I don't in any way hate, judge, or look down on homosexuals. They're people just like me. Thanks for the personal insult, though.

[PhillyKev 0]

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How am I a bigot for thinking that homosexuality is wrong? I don't in any way hate, judge, or look down on homosexuals. They're people just like me. Thanks for the personal insult, though.

I'm sorry that was insulting to you. But it is bigotry.

Bigot - One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

You've defended people who protest against gays because you say they are trying to spread their agenda. You think that a couple in love shouldn't be allowed to marry because they happen to be gay, and you've made many other comments that demonstrate your intolerance of their life style. Honeslty, what would you do if you were in a restaurant with your kids and two gay men were sitting together and gave each other a kiss? Would you think or act any differently than if it were a straight couple?

You said you think homosexuality is wrong and inthe next sentence say that you don't judge them. You're judging their lifestyle to be wrong.

Again, I'm not trying to be insulting, and I respect that you have a differing opinion. But don't try to pretend that you're not biased. You've used the bible to back up your claim that homosexuality is wrong on many occasions. Then you say that you don't follow everything in the bible. So it's you making the choice to decide that the bible statements against homosexualiry are more important to you than other issues. It's who you are, you don't have to appologize for it, but don't deny it.

[pajarito 0]

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I'm sorry that was insulting to you. But it is bigotry.

Bigot - One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

You don’t have your own sense of right or wrong? Are you intolerant of me and other Christians? You kind of also described yourself. I guess we’re all bigots.

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You've defended people who protest against gays because you say they are trying to spread their agenda. You think that a couple in love shouldn't be allowed to marry because they happen to be gay, and you've made many other comments that demonstrate your intolerance of their life style.

I have made comments defending people who wish to protest the homosexual movement and also have made comments stating my opposition to homosexuals entering into “marriage.” As for intolerance, I disagree. I disagree with their choice of lifestyle but I am tolerant of it. In our society, it is their right to choose their lifestyle and it’s none of my business. Their ability to live the way they want has no bearing on whether they should be allowed to enter into “marriage”, however.

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Honeslty, what would you do if you were in a restaurant with your kids and two gay men were sitting together and gave each other a kiss? Would you think or act any differently than if it were a straight couple?

For my kids sake…yes. I would try and shield them from that. Although, I would try and shield them from any indecency until they’re old enough to handle those sensitive and emotional issues on their own.

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You said you think homosexuality is wrong and inthe next sentence say that you don't judge them. You're judging their lifestyle to be wrong.

I do think homosexuality is wrong. I do not, however, judge them. That’s not my job. I’m not “judging” their lifestyle to be wrong. God is.

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Again, I'm not trying to be insulting, and I respect that you have a differing opinion. But don't try to pretend that you're not biased. You've used the bible to back up your claim that homosexuality is wrong on many occasions. Then you say that you don't follow everything in the bible. So it's you making the choice to decide that the bible statements against homosexualiry are more important to you than other issues. It's who you are, you don't have to appologize for it, but don't deny it.

If I’m biased because I take the words of the Bible as truth and try and follow them then I guess I am biased. You know very well what I’m talking about when I say that I can’t follow the law of the Bible by myself. It has nothing to do with hypocrisy or selectivity. I just admit that I need help. I’ve explained that to you and everyone else here several times in my previous posts. Briefly…we are sinners by nature (imperfect) and fall short of the grace of God. We are separated from God by sin. God became the person of Jesus Christ and paid the price for our sin with his own blood sacrifice. Therefore, those who accept this gift of forgiveness and reconciliation are saved by the grace of God through belief in his son, Jesus. We are still imperfect, however, and are in need of help to live our lives more like Jesus. It’s a “work in progress.”

[christelsabine 1]

I was trying hard but no chance: Do not understand what it has to do with my logic.

Correctness of friends choices??? Would you explain, pls? What my friends chose, is not my biz.

I chose for myself, my friends, their family members, and perhaps you mean I should dump my best girl friend because of her son's "choice" which, in fact is not a choice at all? He just is, he is gay. He's part of my my and my family's life.

Correct me, if I understood something wrong in your 2 lines.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[christelsabine 1]

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For my kids sake…yes. I would try and shield them from that. Although, I would try and shield them from any indecency until they’re old enough to handle those sensitive and emotional issues on their own.

How could they be able to handle this? If they never were in touch with it, never were explained what it is... They will never be able to deal with this.

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Briefly…we are sinners by nature (imperfect) and fall short of the grace of God. ***

How I love to be a sinner and knowing God will always love me.

We are still imperfect, however, and are in need of help to live our lives more like Jesus. It’s a “work in progress.


Really, I do not want to live'n die like Jesus Christ!

It's simply respecting my religion and loving to live.
Jesus surely is not expecting more.

dudeist skydiver # 3105