Fahrenheit 911

[billvon 2,990]

>Bill, if that's an honest reporting of how "europeans" see us (and I
> don't think it is...), then yes, of course I don't care how they think of
> us.

You would only care if their image of us is good?

Personally, I wish it didn't matter what they thought of us. We are, however, currently being the world's policemen, and thus a very bad image of americans leads to dead police (i.e. soldiers.) We should not necessarily conform to what others think we should be, but we should at least understand why they think of us that way.

In any case, I think the image of americans as fat gun-toters is no more or less valid than the image of arabs as turban-wearing, jihad-leaning extremists, of germans as boring, authoritarian engineers, or of brits as pale and overly polite. There are certainly people who fit that mold, but it's more interesting as a reference of how others view us than an allegation to be defended against.

[Kennedy 0]

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Still learning, then.

As opposed to residents of a certain continent or a certain dentin tower...

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PeteH 0]

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There's a reason we Europeans see average American like this:
[insert 400 lb man with bad haircut holding a firearm]

because you believe everything you read?
because you haven't visited the US?
because you are so good at stereotyping?

Let me know when I'm getting warmer.

It's so cold I'll help you.

Because we have sense of humour?

I find messing with stereotypes very funny. I can laugh at myself and quite often overdo stereotypes of metalheads just to amuse myself and those who got it.

[PeteH 0]

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And to think that Europeans have this idea that americans don't care how they're perceived throughout the world.

Bill, if that's an honest reporting of how "europeans" see us (and I don't think it is...), then yes, of course I don't care how they think of us. If someone honestly thinks that is the average american, then there is not a damned thing I can do to change their mind.

I mean, really, Bill.

Ciels-
Michele

You can't do anything alone, but as a nation there are ways to change that image.

And anyone who isn't in coma should realize that picture isn't how we really see average American, but he/she should also understand it's based on certain facts (what Bill said).

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"honest reporting of how "europeans" see us"

"You would only care if their image of us is good?"

Yep, USA, land of bad haircuts. C'mon folks, shape up, the future of the world depends upon it.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Michele 1]

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I think the image of americans as fat gun-toters is no more or less valid than the image of arabs as turban-wearing, jihad-leaning extremists, of germans as boring, authoritarian engineers, or of brits as pale and overly polite. There are certainly people who fit that mold, but it's more interesting as a reference of how others view us than an allegation to be defended against.

See, here's my position. I don't hold those stereotypes. Nor do I think of all Americans as obese, gun toting people.

What bothers me is the apparent willingness to accept that particular stereotype as "interesting" when if someone calls an arab "turban-wearing, jihad-leaning extremists" or "rag head", people don't care why, they just slam them outright, instead of trying to understand why they think that way. The double standard is obvious and apparent there.

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You would only care if their image of us is good?

No, I care if it's factual. Based in something other than prejudice and propaganda.

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We should not necessarily conform to what others think we should be, but we should at least understand why they think of us that way.

And with this statement you will find no disagreement from me.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[billvon 2,990]

>What bothers me is the apparent willingness to accept that particular
> stereotype as "interesting" when if someone calls an arab
>"turban-wearing, jihad-leaning extremists" or "rag head", people don't
>care why, they just slam them outright, instead of trying to understand why
>they think that way. The double standard is obvious and apparent there.

There is definitely a double standard for me. I hold myself and my country to a higher standard than I hold other people and other countries. If you were out with a friend of yours and he yelled "Hey, check out the stupid faggot!" I suspect you'd be all over his ass. You wouldn't "try to understand him."

>No, I care if it's factual.

The cover story of TIME magazine this week is about the obesity epidemic in the US. One need look no further than this very forum for an indication of whether people feel strongly about gun ownership. So while that picture is certainly an exaggeration, it's not based on pure imagination either.

[Michele 1]

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If you were out with a friend of yours and he yelled "Hey, check out the stupid faggot!" I suspect you'd be all over his ass. You wouldn't "try to understand him."

Boy, you're totally correct. But if someone I didn't know said the same thing within my hearing, I'd be all over his ass, too.

Right after 9/11, someone I didn't know posted a photoshopped picture of OBL in a 7-11 smock on the bulletin board at Perris. I took it down, and he came over and confronted me. I was called Afghanistan Jane, I called him a name (something along a jackAss - I didn't know the term asshat yet....), and smarter heads prevailed - Lori T walked me away from him. I didn't know him, and I wouldn't tolerate BS from him, either.

My point with all of this is that whomever does it, it's wrong.

Gun ownership is not bad. I'm sick of hearing people tell me how wrong it is, how evil. As for obesity, there's a problem with that here in the US - I'm no skinny marink myself.

But there's a fine line between addressing a problem and propaganda and prejudice from any area.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[billvon 2,990]

>Gun ownership is not bad. I'm sick of hearing people tell me how
> wrong it is, how evil. As for obesity, there's a problem with that
>here in the US . . .

Agreed on both. But the picture in question just showed an american firing a weapon for fun. (i.e. he wasn't shown shooting at anyone, or firing into the air or anything.) I don't see that as a suggestion that guns are evil. It just speaks to the perception that americans seem to have a lot of them - and that they use them often.

[Zenister 0]

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Film is an art and therefore has no rules.

an ignorant statement.

Aall forms of Art have rules, well documented, culturally defined rules. One of the primary differences between a poor artist and a great one is the ability to 'break' those rules when nessesary to achieve the desired effect/response from the veiwer.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Scratch 0]

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And lastly...I'm a she.

_Pm

You don't post like a "she."

Yikes!!!!!!!!!!

[piisfish 140]

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There's a reason we Europeans see average American like this:

http://ewok.fi/~petri/tmp/average_american.jpg

give Michael Moore a H&K and you have the same person than on the pic...

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[billvon 2,990]

>Perhaps I should just call him a deceitful, lying, scumbag piece of shit.

Interesting news story today. Also interesting is the fact that there was no security screening of the people on the flight.

-----------------------------
TAMPA - Two days after the Sept. 11 attacks, with most of the nation's air traffic still grounded, a small jet landed at Tampa International Airport, picked up three young Saudi men and left.

The men, one of them thought to be a member of the Saudi royal family, were accompanied by a former FBI agent and a former Tampa police officer on the flight to Lexington, Ky.

The Saudis then took another flight out of the country. The two ex-officers returned to TIA a few hours later on the same plane.

For nearly three years, White House, aviation and law enforcement officials have insisted the flight never took place and have denied published reports and widespread Internet speculation about its purpose.

But now, at the request of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks, TIA officials have confirmed that the flight did take place and have supplied details.
---------------------------------

Which is one of the points he seems to make in the movie. Of course, all this does is make him slightly less of a flake.

[SublimeBreeze 0]

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I'm not going to do this dance with you.

It's very simple. He misled audiences, and he called his movie a documentary. I'm not going to waste my time or HH's bandwidth repeating it. Do a search. You know it's there...you took part in those threads.

http://www.mooreexposed.com/
http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20031016.html
http://www.michaelmoorehatesamerica.com/
http://www.moorelies.com/
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11470
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=34367
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/
http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

well I visited www.bowlingfortruth.com and after investigating the site.. reading it... I wanted to find the origin of the site owner and his or her political spin.

Well I found it, and the author states People I like "Bill O'reilly" as well as other right wing extremests. He has a very strong right wing pull and so his views are going to be consistant with that ideology.

I am sure if I spent the time to find out the rest of the authors political views the results would be similar.

Everyone has their political slant it is up to you to decide what is the truth.

Sean
Sean In Thailand

[lawrocket 3]

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There's a reason we Europeans see average American like this:

http://ewok.fi/~petri/tmp/average_american.jpg

You and the mouse in your pocket might feel that way, but I doubt strongly any European with an IQ over 85 sees average Americans like that.

You are wrong. Many do. The Europeans tend to view Americans as isolationists and that they look down on the rest of the world. Of course, they are, wuite often correct. Here's one of my favorite quotes.

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Back in London, I was having dinner in the Groucho Club...when one more person started in on the Stars and Stripes. Eventually he got, as the Europeans always do, to the part about "Your country's never been invaded." (This fellow had been two during the Blitz, you see.) "You don't know the horror, the suffering. You think war is..."
I snapped.
"A John Wayne movie," I said. "That's what you were going to say, wasn't it? We think war is a John Wayne movie. We think _life_ is a John Wayne movie--with good guys and bad guys, as simple as that.
Well, you know something...? You're right. And let me tell you who those bad guys are. They're _us_. WE BE BAD!
"We're the baddest-assed sons of bitches that ever jogged in Reeboks. We're three-quarters grizzly bear and two-thirds car-wreck and descended from a stock market crash on our mother's side. You take your Germany, France and Spain, roll them all together and it wouldn't give us room to park our cars. We're the big boys, Jack, the original, giant, economy-sized, new and improved butt kickers of all time. When we snort coke in Houston, people lose their hats in Cap D'Antibes. And we've got an American Express card credit limit higher than your pissant metric numbers go.
You say our countries never been invaded? You're right, little buddy. Because I'd like to see the needle-dicked foreigners who'd have the guts to try. We drink napalm to get our hearts started in the morning. A mugging is our way of saying "Cheerio". Hell can't hold our sock-hops. We walk taller, talk louder, spit further, ...and buy more things than you know the names of. I'd rather be a junkie in a New York City jail than king, queen, and jack of all you Europeans. We eat little countries like this for breakfast, and shit them out before lunch."
Of course, the guy should have punched me. But this was Europe. He just smiled his shabby, superior European smile.

-PJ O'Rourke

He basically summarized everything the Eruopeans think of us. The issue is, most Europeans are as powerfully uninformed about America as Americans are about the rest of the world. They do not undertsand how we are with guns. They lack the understanding of our drive to work. Our lifestyle is fast-paced, and this is not understood.

Fundamentally, the issue is different ways of thinking. Americans think they are the best, and the rest of the world should follow suit. Europeans don't like this, since they think Americans have it all wrong. (Of course, Europeans hate each other, too, and duke it out horrifically through time immemorial).

I guess I'm saying, Americans and Europeans have a lot more in common with each other than they think. And that is the big misunderstanding. Neither thinks the other is doign it right.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Casurf1978 0]

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Everyone has their political slant it is up to you to decide what is the truth.

How true. The bowlingfortruth is pretty slanted, especially on Mossedaq. He makes Mossedaq look like a commie reformer, when he does not take into account the whole picture of what was going on in the Iran of the 1950s.

[Trent 0]

I haven't read this entire thread, but I've gathered that comments like this one from Quade, on 'Day After Tomorrow' in another thread have come up:

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I doubt many rational people will be swayed in their views of the possiblity of this happening in their life as they were by other science fiction disaster films such as "Godzilla", Armageddon" or "Plan Nine from Outer Space".

I see the same problems with Moore's films. Yeah, most of us know he has an agenda and most of us can figure out that he's deliberately editing and manipulating to make his point more exciting and inflammatory...

BUT

... the problem is that irrational people vote too.

Movies like this can and probably do sway a few thousand votes based on deliberate bending of truth. I don't like that.

Oh, hello again!

[billvon 2,990]

One of the first reviews of Moore's film shown to a US audience:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

'Fahrenheit 9/11' Gets Standing Ovation
June 15, 2004

The crowd that gave Michael Moore's controversial "Fahrenheit 9/11" documentary a standing ovation last night at the Ziegfeld Theater premiere certainly didn't have to be encouraged to show their appreciation. From liberal radio host/writer Al Franken to actor/director Tim Robbins, Moore was in his element.

But once "F9/11" gets to audiences beyond screenings, it won't be dependent on celebrities for approbation. It turns out to be a really brilliant piece of work, and a film that members of all political parties should see without fail.

As much as some might try to marginalize this film as a screed against President George Bush, "F9/11" — as we saw last night — is a tribute to patriotism, to the American sense of duty — and at the same time a indictment of stupidity and avarice.

Readers of this column may recall that I had a lot of problems with Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," particularly where I thought he took gratuitous shots at helpless targets such as Charlton Heston. "Columbine" too easily succeeded by shooting fish in a barrel, as they used to say.

Not so with "F9/11," which instead relies on lots of film footage and actual interviews to make its case against the war in Iraq and tell the story of the intertwining histories of the Bush and bin Laden families.

. . .

Now, unless you've been living under a rock, you know that this movie has been the cause of a lot of trouble. Miramax and Disney have gone to war over it, and "The Passion of the Christ" seems like "Mary Poppins" in retrospect. Before anyone's even seen it, there have been partisan debates over which way Moore may have spun this or that to get a desired effect.

But, really, in the end, not seeing "F9/11" would be like allowing your First Amendment rights to be abrogated, no matter whether you're a Republican or a Democrat.

The film does Bush no favors, that's for sure, but it also finds an unexpectedly poignant and universal groove in the story of Lila Lipscombe, a Flint, Mich., mother who sends her kids into the Army for the opportunities it can provide — just like the commercials say — and lives to regret it.

Lipscombe's story is so powerful, and so completely middle-American, that I think it will take Moore's critics by surprise. She will certainly move to tears everyone who encounters her.

"F9/11" isn't perfect, and of course, there are leaps of logic sometimes. One set piece is about African-American congressmen and women presenting petitions on the Florida recount, and wondering why there are no senators to support them.

Indeed, those absent senators include John Kerry, Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy, among others, which Moore does not elaborate upon. At no point are liberals or Democrats taken to task for not supporting these elected officials, and I would have liked to have seen that.

On the other hand, there are more than enough moments that seemed to resonate with the huge Ziegfeld audience.

The most indelible is Bush's reaction to hearing on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, that the first plane had crashed into the World Trade Center.

Bush was reading to a grade-school class in Florida at that moment. Instead of jumping up and leaving, he instead sat in front of the class, with an unfortunate look of confusion, for nearly 11 minutes.

Moore obtained the footage from a teacher at the school who videotaped the morning program. There Bush sits, with no access to his advisers, while New York is being viciously attacked. I guarantee you that no one who sees this film forgets this episode.

More than even "The Passion of the Christ," "F9/11" is going to be a "see it for yourself" movie when it hits theaters on June 25. It simply cannot be missed, and I predict it will be a huge moneymaker.

[lawrocket 3]

Hey, bill, was that the article on Fox News? Sure looks like it...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Kennedy 0]

(A) do you have a link for that review?

(B) not seeing it in theaters is exercising my first amendment rights, not having them abrogated

(C) when you send your kids into the military for the opportunities, there's a chance they will die. I haven't seen anything on that segment other than your posted review, but so far I'm not feeling any worse for her than any other parent who lost a child to death in the service. actually, I think I'm feeling elss for her right now.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[lawrocket 3]

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(A) do you have a link for that review?

billvon's was somewhat truncated, so this here looks like the same review from Fox News.

http://www.foxnews.com/printer_friendly_story/0,3566,122678,00.html

***'Fahrenheit 9/11' Gets Standing Ovations

Tuesday, June 15, 2004

By Roger Friedman



'Fahrenheit 9/11' | Jacko | Clive Davis

'Fahrenheit 9/11' Gets Standing Ovations

The crowd that gave Michael Moore's controversial "Fahrenheit 9/11" a standing ovation last night at the Ziegfeld Theatre premiere certainly didn't have to be encouraged at all to show their appreciation. From liberal radio host and writer Al Franken to actor/director Tim Robbins, Moore was in his element. But once "F9/11" gets to audiences beyond screenings, it won't be dependent on celebrities for approbation. It turns out to be a really brilliant piece of work, and a film that members of all political parties should see without fail.

As much as some might try to marginalize this film as a screed against President George Bush, "F9/11" — as we saw last night — is a tribute to patriotism, to the American sense of duty, and at the same time a indictment of stupidity and avarice. Readers of this column may recall that I had a lot of problems with Moore's "Bowling for Columbine," particularly where I thought he took gratuitous shots at helpless targets like Charlton Heston. "Columbine" too easily succeeded by shooting fish in a barrel, as they used to say. Not so with "F9/11," which instead relies on lots of film footage and actual interviews to make its case against the war in Iraq and tell the story of the intertwining histories of the Bush and Bin Laden families.

First, I know you want to know who came to the Ziegfeld, so here is just a partial list. Besides Franken and Robbins, Al Sharpton, Mike Myers, Tony Bennett, Glenn Close, Gretchen Mol (newly married over the weekend to director Todd Williams), Lori Singer, Tony Kushner, "Angela's Ashes" author Frank McCourt, Jill Krementz and Kurt Vonnegut, Lauren Bacall (chatting up a fully refurbished Lauren Hutton), Richard Gere, John McEnroe and Patti Smythe, former Carter cabinet member and ambassador Richard Holbrooke, Carson Daly, NBC's Jeff Zucker, a very pregnant Rory Kennedy, playwright Israel Horovitz, Macaulay Culkin, Philip Seymour Hoffman, Kyra Sedgwick, Linda Evangelista, Ed Bradley, Tom and Meredith Brokaw, director Barry Levinson, NBC anchor Brian Williams, Vernon Jordan, Eva Mendez, Sandra Bernhard and the always humorous Joy Behar.

If that's not enough, how about Yoko Ono, accompanied by her son, Sean, who's let his hair grow out and is now sporting a bushy beard that makes him look like his late, beloved father John Lennon?

And then, just to show you how much people wanted to see this film, there was Martha Stewart, looking terrific. I mean, talk about eclectic groups!

Now, unless you've been living under a rock you know that this movie has been the cause of a lot of trouble. Miramax and Disney have gone to war over it, and "The Passion of the Christ" seems like "Mary Poppins" in retrospect. Before anyone's even seen it, there have been partisan debates over which way Moore may have spun this or that to get a desired effect.

But, really, in the end, not seeing "F9/11" would be like allowing your first amendment rights to be abrogated, no matter whether you're a Republican or a Democrat. The film does Bush no favors, that's for sure, but it also finds an unexpectedly poignant and universal groove in the story of Lila Lipscombe, a Flint, Michigan mother who sends her kids into the Army for the opportunities it can provide — just like the commercials say — and lives to regret it. Lipscombe's story is so powerful, and so completely Middle American, that I think it will take Moore's critics by surprise. She will certainly move to tears everyone who encounters her.

"F9/11" isn't perfect, and of course, there are leaps of logic sometimes. One set piece is about African American congressmen and women voting against the war with Iraq and wondering why there are no Senators to support them. Indeed, those absent senators include John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and Ted Kennedy, among others, which Moore does not elaborate upon. At no point are liberals or Democrats taken to task for not speaking out against the war, and I would have liked to have seen that.

On the other hand, there are more than enough moments that seemed to resonate with the huge Ziegfeld audience. The most indelible is President Bush's reaction to hearing on the morning of September 11, 2001, that the first plane has crashed into the World Trade Center. Bush was reading to a grade school class in Florida at that moment. Instead of jumping up and leaving, he instead sat in front of the class, with an unfortunate look of confusion, for nearly 11 minutes. Moore obtained the footage from a teacher at the school who videotaped the morning program. There Bush sits, with no access to his advisers, while New York is being viciously attacked. I guarantee you that no one who sees this film forgets this episode.

More than even "The Passion of the Christ," "F9/11" is going to be a "see it for yourself" movie when it hits theaters on June 25. It simply cannot be missed, and I predict it will be a huge moneymaker. And that's where Disney's Michael Eisner comes in. Not releasing this film will turn out to be the curse of his career. When Eisner came into Disney years ago, the studio was at a low point. He turned it around with a revived animation department and comedy hits like "Pretty Woman" and "Down and Out in Beverly Hills." But Eisner's short-sightedness on many recent matters has been his undoing. And this last misadventure is one that will follow him right out the doors of the Magic Kingdom.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,990]

>do you have a link for that review?

Sorry, meant to post that:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,122680,00.html

>actually, I think I'm feeling less for her right now.

That's your right. I feel bad for anyone who loses their children to a war.

[kallend 2,026]

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(A) do you have a link for that review?

(B) not seeing it in theaters is exercising my first amendment rights, not having them abrogated

(C) when you send your kids into the military for the opportunities, there's a chance they will die. I haven't seen anything on that segment other than your posted review, but so far I'm not feeling any worse for her than any other parent who lost a child to death in the service. actually, I think I'm feeling elss for her right now.

Did she really "send" her kids?

My kid is in the army but I didn't send him. He signed up on his own and I supported his decision, but that's a far cry from sending him.

I can't imagine any teenager being "sent" by a parent.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Zennie 0]

I find it a little ironic that the people who whined about Al Franken calling Rush Limbaugh a "big fat idiot" freely use that very same epithet with respect to Michael Moore.

I've read through the Michael Moore "lies & distortions" websites, and quite frankly most of it is lame nitpicking. Spin here, creative editing there, yes. But none of his substantive points are ever refuted.

Moore HAS spoken out in response to his critics. If you care to read it, it is here.

And before anybody writes me off as yet another commie-liberal-Democrat, I'm a card carrying Libertarian who voted for Bush in the last election and am throwing away my Libertarian vote this time around in favor of Kerry... not because I like Kerry, but because that's how badly I want Dubya OUT of office.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Zennie 0]

Well, I'm also voting for Kerry because his daughter has really nice tits.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon