juanesky 0 #76 May 26, 2004 Darius, it will never matter how long will I live, there are still things I will never understand 100%, not even my mother. For what I know your culture is as diverse as any on the planet, I have friends that are druse, shiites, sunni, christian arabs, including one Ulama that I certainly was unimpressed with. The problem is that Current islamic states are promoting intolerance with anything not islamic. I am quoting part of my post: QuoteBy the way I did not write Iraq, it was IRAN. The only issue I have with all this is the threat imposed by a few to have Islam rule every aspect of your life by law of the land whether you are part of it or not, and then exporting it with the threat of terror. All the religions have been wrongly used to this day, and will probably be forever as well. I don't watch much TV, but in the real world, family professional and legal world there, there is high respect for women and pretty much all people. I dare you tell your girlfriend to do as you say The market is ample for all. As I stated before most are peace loving people, however, the trend today is that it has spiraled into a religious conflict by these few and is infecting most. I agree partially that some values on the western society are far from ideal, such as being materialistic and image oriented (good looks), but you still see people of all colors, looks, etc being able to thrive and make something of themselves."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #77 May 26, 2004 QuoteQuote"I did not put together Queen and England." Umm, yes you did..... "But what about talking about good old England? Land of the fat and lazy kings and queens, princes and princesses who live so lavishly without much important to do," Don't worry, its a mistake that even some English people make, and I delight in correcting them as well. And I always was sure, the Brits are gentlemen Perfidious. Holy Moses, even in Germany there are people calling good old Lisbeth like that.... Show some mercy. If you like. edited to add: Of course, we know how most Royalties are titled. Queen of England is simply easier colloguial speech. dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #78 May 26, 2004 "good old Lisbeth like that...." She is of course German by descent, so you'd expect a little respect.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #79 May 26, 2004 QuoteQuote"good old Lisbeth like that...." She is of course German by descent, so you'd expect a little respect. I know, and we Germans know dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #80 May 26, 2004 "I know, and we Germans know" I'm prepared to wager a pull up that its all news to Juanesky though.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
christelsabine 1 #81 May 26, 2004 QuoteQuoteMarried? Yes indeedy, but her eldest son is widowed and would make a fine catch, Pls, tell me this is a mise-en-scène , can't stop crying, or am I still laughing ?? dudeist skydiver # 3105 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #82 May 26, 2004 I agree with you. I have said it before and I’ll say it again. America is the best place too live on this planet. Not only do I love the country I love the people. I still don’t thinking you know what it is like in Muslim families. I have lived in one and am a part of one. I have never seen a woman disrespected, and my aunt for example who wanted to be a teacher and continue with her school did with all the support of her family. My cousin who is female wanted to be an engineer she did the same. I just don’t think because people decide to follow there religion and cover there body(just another point in the Christian and Jewish religion you are also required to cover your self when you are in front of god, Church, Temple) they should be considered oppressed. In the Reza shah regime about 50 years ago they would try to rip off the woman’s cover to make them follow western tradition many of the woman fought back to keep there religious right. Yes no religion should be forced on any one, but don’t assume that every Muslim woman wants to ware a tang top and mini skirt in public but can’t. Many choose not too for religious and cultural reasons.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot90 0 #83 May 26, 2004 QuoteWhew. Good thing I live here when my mind is often of little or no value. How valuable I feel. I guess that depends on who you hang out with and how you dress and act. But I'm sure you don't look like Janet Reno. and over there you would not find a female with a job like Condolisa Rice does, would you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelel01 1 #84 May 26, 2004 I don't know. Depends on where "over there" is, and even if you named a locale, I still wouldn't know. I'm just chalking all of this up to cultural differences. We're better off in many ways, worse off in others. It will always be that way. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #85 May 26, 2004 Quote"good old Lisbeth like that...." She is of course German by descent, so you'd expect a little respect. The last English king was killed at the Battle of Hastings in 1066 (and he was a bit suspiciously Danish anyway). No English kings and queens for over 900 years. The "Windsors" changed their name from Battenberg (or was it Saxe Coburg Gotha).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bodypilot90 0 #86 May 26, 2004 QuoteWhich is why I said it looks like that's what actually happened. What appeared to be the case at the time is likely to be very different. But if we did bomb a wedding, we should find out how it happened and apologize. It might be that it was unavoidable. But saying that it wasn't a wedding, and that those dead children don't exist, is not the right answer. It might not have been a wedding, if it was, I'm sorry. The "party" is at least 50% responsible for breaking curfew and firing shots at that time in that area. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #87 May 26, 2004 >Perhaps you want to read the Quran and what the rights of women really is over there . . . Perhaps you should read the bible and see whether women must remain in slavery if their fathers sell them as slaves. Check out whether her husband can lock her up when he leaves for the day to keep her from cheating, and whether it's OK to rape the virgins of a country after you invade. See if women must cover their heads, according to the bible. Find out if women must submit to their husband's rule. Some pointers: Exodus 21:7-10 1 Timothy 2:11-14 Ephesians 5:22-24 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 Judges 21:11-14 What's the point of all this? Claiming that Muslims bash women because of what the Q'uran says is as silly as claiming that christian US soldiers are rapists because the bible says they can rape virgins they capture. >No, that will be less fun, bashing the US is more appealing. Not as much fun as bashing muslims, apparently! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites juanesky 0 #88 May 27, 2004 Really? Well ELizabeth I (1533-1603) daughter of Henry VIII must have been cantonese then"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #89 May 27, 2004 QuoteReally? Well ELizabeth I (1533-1603) daughter of Henry VIII must have been cantonese then No, Norman (fyi...that's not English). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #90 May 27, 2004 Don't worry Kelly, most South Africans living here don't get it either.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #91 May 27, 2004 Ever heard of Benazir Bhuto? She didn't have Condee's job she had George Bush's!When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Erroll 80 #92 May 27, 2004 QuoteEver heard of Benazir Bhuto? She didn't have Condee's job she had George Bush's! Totally off topic but Benazir was the single most glamorous and attractive female PM the world has seen! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nacmacfeegle 0 #93 May 27, 2004 Och Jamille, he's going to have to google it, so you really should have spelled it Bhutto.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Skyrad 0 #94 May 27, 2004 Ooops! (Yea she was pretty cute)When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #95 May 27, 2004 QuotePerhaps you should read the bible and see whether women must remain in slavery if their fathers sell them as slaves. Check out whether her husband can lock her up when he leaves for the day to keep her from cheating, and whether it's OK to rape the virgins of a country after you invade. See if women must cover their heads, according to the bible. Find out if women must submit to their husband's rule. Some pointers: Exodus 21:7-10 1 Timothy 2:11-14 Ephesians 5:22-24 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 Judges 21:11-14 What's the point of all this? Claiming that Muslims bash women because of what the Q'uran says is as silly as claiming that christian US soldiers are rapists because the bible says they can rape virgins they capture. You have to use context Billvon and not just pick and choose single verse “zingers” to make your point. Without using context, one could make just about any point he/she wants to make out of almost anything. Exodus 21:7-10 If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. God decided to reveal himself to the people of Israel. It makes sense to me because they were already receptive to the concept of one single deity. They were, however, primitive and slavery was the accepted practice of the day. God did not immediately abolish slavery and other acts such as polygamy but he did regulate them in order to make them more humane. These practices were not God’s ideal. They were permitted for a time, however, due to the hardness of human hearts. It does not mean that God condones slavery as his way of doing things. You have to understand that this was an initial stage of development in God’s plan. 1 Timothy 2:11-14 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. Men were created to be the “spiritual” leader in the home and church. Women were created to be man’s companion and helper in fulfilling God’s desire for their lives. This does not mean that husbands are supposed to be domineering over their wives or are superior in any other sense. Husbands, as spiritual leaders, are supposed to love their wives unconditionally and sacrificially as God loves and demonstrated to us. Jesus loved all of us so completely that he gave up everything, including his life, for our wellbeing. Husbands are supposed to be willing to do the same for their wives. Anyone who takes this verse to mean that he can control, beat, or dominate his wife is wrong. Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. The key here is “submit to your husbands as to the Lord. and as the church submits to Christ. On the other hand, husbands must love their wives as Jesus loved us. If this is done, there is perfect harmony. Again, it does not in any way mean that a man can dominate over his wife or that she is to accept subjugation to his selfish control. If a man is truly the spiritual leader of his wife and family in the way set forth in the example of Jesus, the wife should have no problem with submission to his authority. The problem is that people often do not follow Jesus’ example in this matter and act from their own instinctual selfish desires. 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you. Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head – it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because fo the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice – nor do the churches of God. NIV Study Bible: Perfect spiritual equality exists among men and women as heirs of God’s grace, yet it is an equality involving order and subordination with respect to authority. As God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man, and man is the head of woman. Paul bases the husband’s headship not on cultural considerations but on God’s creative activity and purpose in creating the woman to help the man. Subordination is not demeaning to one’s person, for it does not imply suppression or oppression. Rather it states that the husband must recognize the worth God places on the woman and that his responsibility involves protecting and leading her in such as way as to fulfill God’s will for her in the home and the church. Just as Christ is not inferior or second-class because the Father is the head, so the woman is not a second-class person because man is her head. Furthermore, in God’s kingdom, leadership never implies being “greater.” Servanthood and obedience are the keys to greatness in the kingdom. Head coverings and veils were the custom of the day in Paul’s time. So was the length of hair for both men and women. The principle still applies today, however. A Christian woman should dress in a modest and careful way, with honorable and dignified attire that allows her to go anywhere with security and respect. In any sense, the point is to glorify God. Judges 21:11-14 ”This is what you are to do,“ they said. “Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin.” They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan. Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them. NIV Study Bible: Most of the Israelites in Jabesh Gilead were killed because they refused to join with Israel in the war against the Benjamites. Their sin was seen in not standing with God and his people against the heinous sin committed by some of their brothers. These were the acts of evil people and are not intended as a blueprint for how to treat women as you are alluding. This was not God’s instruction in this verse and it is certainly not something he would condone. CONTEXT…CONTEXT…CONTEXT!!! Jay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #96 May 27, 2004 Very in depth analysis. And I'm sure the same kind of interpretations can be made of the Koran. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #97 May 27, 2004 QuoteVery in depth analysis. And I'm sure the same kind of interpretations can be made of the Koran. Probably so. I have never read any of the Quran so I couldn't say. I just believe things must be taken in context to get their full meaning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,006 #98 May 27, 2004 >You have to use context Billvon and not just pick and choose single verse >“zingers” to make your point. Without using context, one could make just >about any point he/she wants to make out of almost anything. Exactly! And the people who read the Koran and say "Hey, it says to kill people and then you get a bunch of virgins in heaven" are making exactly the same error. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #99 May 27, 2004 Quote>You have to use context Billvon and not just pick and choose single verse >“zingers” to make your point. Without using context, one could make just >about any point he/she wants to make out of almost anything. Exactly! And the people who read the Koran and say "Hey, it says to kill people and then you get a bunch of virgins in heaven" are making exactly the same error. Problamente, si. Like I said, however, I've not read the Quran so I couldn't say for sure. I'd like to see a Muslim out there quote something like that from the Quran, put it into context, and display its proper meaning. Darius11??? It would be interesting to see if the terrorists are, in fact, taking it out of context. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #100 May 27, 2004 As a general rule. You will go to haven if you are a mortar and die in the name of God. What is considered dieing in the name of god I guess is up to interpretation? War or Jihad(war in the name of god or for god) is a last result. Does every Muslim follow what the Koran says No. People translate the Koran in there own perspective many many times. Like almost all religious books you can decide what is important to you and what you might not agree with. The spin that is put on religion is also very important. I remember in school for example they would talk about how you’re not allowed to have sex before marriage. In the Koran you are allowed to have sex before marriage as long as it is recorded with whom. I for example do not believe that drinking is agents Islam. I think being drunk is. Am I right? I have no idea I’ll tell you when I die. I think the main point or my main point is for people do realize that every religion has parts that might seem wrong at this present time. The Muslim religion again I think was meant to be retranslated to fit current times. Many argue that it is not. We should all just remember not to put judgment on a whole race or group for the actions of a few people. Religion just like a friend or loved one you might have must be taken as a whole. We all have parts that might not be liked and if we only concentrate on them that is all we will see. As to the exact sora I have too look it up I have an English version of the Koran also.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 4 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Darius11 12 #82 May 26, 2004 I agree with you. I have said it before and I’ll say it again. America is the best place too live on this planet. Not only do I love the country I love the people. I still don’t thinking you know what it is like in Muslim families. I have lived in one and am a part of one. I have never seen a woman disrespected, and my aunt for example who wanted to be a teacher and continue with her school did with all the support of her family. My cousin who is female wanted to be an engineer she did the same. I just don’t think because people decide to follow there religion and cover there body(just another point in the Christian and Jewish religion you are also required to cover your self when you are in front of god, Church, Temple) they should be considered oppressed. In the Reza shah regime about 50 years ago they would try to rip off the woman’s cover to make them follow western tradition many of the woman fought back to keep there religious right. Yes no religion should be forced on any one, but don’t assume that every Muslim woman wants to ware a tang top and mini skirt in public but can’t. Many choose not too for religious and cultural reasons.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #83 May 26, 2004 QuoteWhew. Good thing I live here when my mind is often of little or no value. How valuable I feel. I guess that depends on who you hang out with and how you dress and act. But I'm sure you don't look like Janet Reno. and over there you would not find a female with a job like Condolisa Rice does, would you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #84 May 26, 2004 I don't know. Depends on where "over there" is, and even if you named a locale, I still wouldn't know. I'm just chalking all of this up to cultural differences. We're better off in many ways, worse off in others. It will always be that way. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #85 May 26, 2004 Quote"good old Lisbeth like that...." She is of course German by descent, so you'd expect a little respect. The last English king was killed at the Battle of Hastings in 1066 (and he was a bit suspiciously Danish anyway). No English kings and queens for over 900 years. The "Windsors" changed their name from Battenberg (or was it Saxe Coburg Gotha).... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #86 May 26, 2004 QuoteWhich is why I said it looks like that's what actually happened. What appeared to be the case at the time is likely to be very different. But if we did bomb a wedding, we should find out how it happened and apologize. It might be that it was unavoidable. But saying that it wasn't a wedding, and that those dead children don't exist, is not the right answer. It might not have been a wedding, if it was, I'm sorry. The "party" is at least 50% responsible for breaking curfew and firing shots at that time in that area. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #87 May 26, 2004 >Perhaps you want to read the Quran and what the rights of women really is over there . . . Perhaps you should read the bible and see whether women must remain in slavery if their fathers sell them as slaves. Check out whether her husband can lock her up when he leaves for the day to keep her from cheating, and whether it's OK to rape the virgins of a country after you invade. See if women must cover their heads, according to the bible. Find out if women must submit to their husband's rule. Some pointers: Exodus 21:7-10 1 Timothy 2:11-14 Ephesians 5:22-24 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 Judges 21:11-14 What's the point of all this? Claiming that Muslims bash women because of what the Q'uran says is as silly as claiming that christian US soldiers are rapists because the bible says they can rape virgins they capture. >No, that will be less fun, bashing the US is more appealing. Not as much fun as bashing muslims, apparently! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #88 May 27, 2004 Really? Well ELizabeth I (1533-1603) daughter of Henry VIII must have been cantonese then"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #89 May 27, 2004 QuoteReally? Well ELizabeth I (1533-1603) daughter of Henry VIII must have been cantonese then No, Norman (fyi...that's not English). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #90 May 27, 2004 Don't worry Kelly, most South Africans living here don't get it either.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #91 May 27, 2004 Ever heard of Benazir Bhuto? She didn't have Condee's job she had George Bush's!When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #92 May 27, 2004 QuoteEver heard of Benazir Bhuto? She didn't have Condee's job she had George Bush's! Totally off topic but Benazir was the single most glamorous and attractive female PM the world has seen! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #93 May 27, 2004 Och Jamille, he's going to have to google it, so you really should have spelled it Bhutto.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #94 May 27, 2004 Ooops! (Yea she was pretty cute)When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #95 May 27, 2004 QuotePerhaps you should read the bible and see whether women must remain in slavery if their fathers sell them as slaves. Check out whether her husband can lock her up when he leaves for the day to keep her from cheating, and whether it's OK to rape the virgins of a country after you invade. See if women must cover their heads, according to the bible. Find out if women must submit to their husband's rule. Some pointers: Exodus 21:7-10 1 Timothy 2:11-14 Ephesians 5:22-24 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 Judges 21:11-14 What's the point of all this? Claiming that Muslims bash women because of what the Q'uran says is as silly as claiming that christian US soldiers are rapists because the bible says they can rape virgins they capture. You have to use context Billvon and not just pick and choose single verse “zingers” to make your point. Without using context, one could make just about any point he/she wants to make out of almost anything. Exodus 21:7-10 If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. God decided to reveal himself to the people of Israel. It makes sense to me because they were already receptive to the concept of one single deity. They were, however, primitive and slavery was the accepted practice of the day. God did not immediately abolish slavery and other acts such as polygamy but he did regulate them in order to make them more humane. These practices were not God’s ideal. They were permitted for a time, however, due to the hardness of human hearts. It does not mean that God condones slavery as his way of doing things. You have to understand that this was an initial stage of development in God’s plan. 1 Timothy 2:11-14 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. Men were created to be the “spiritual” leader in the home and church. Women were created to be man’s companion and helper in fulfilling God’s desire for their lives. This does not mean that husbands are supposed to be domineering over their wives or are superior in any other sense. Husbands, as spiritual leaders, are supposed to love their wives unconditionally and sacrificially as God loves and demonstrated to us. Jesus loved all of us so completely that he gave up everything, including his life, for our wellbeing. Husbands are supposed to be willing to do the same for their wives. Anyone who takes this verse to mean that he can control, beat, or dominate his wife is wrong. Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. The key here is “submit to your husbands as to the Lord. and as the church submits to Christ. On the other hand, husbands must love their wives as Jesus loved us. If this is done, there is perfect harmony. Again, it does not in any way mean that a man can dominate over his wife or that she is to accept subjugation to his selfish control. If a man is truly the spiritual leader of his wife and family in the way set forth in the example of Jesus, the wife should have no problem with submission to his authority. The problem is that people often do not follow Jesus’ example in this matter and act from their own instinctual selfish desires. 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you. Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head – it is just as though her head were shaved. If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. For this reason, and because fo the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice – nor do the churches of God. NIV Study Bible: Perfect spiritual equality exists among men and women as heirs of God’s grace, yet it is an equality involving order and subordination with respect to authority. As God is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man, and man is the head of woman. Paul bases the husband’s headship not on cultural considerations but on God’s creative activity and purpose in creating the woman to help the man. Subordination is not demeaning to one’s person, for it does not imply suppression or oppression. Rather it states that the husband must recognize the worth God places on the woman and that his responsibility involves protecting and leading her in such as way as to fulfill God’s will for her in the home and the church. Just as Christ is not inferior or second-class because the Father is the head, so the woman is not a second-class person because man is her head. Furthermore, in God’s kingdom, leadership never implies being “greater.” Servanthood and obedience are the keys to greatness in the kingdom. Head coverings and veils were the custom of the day in Paul’s time. So was the length of hair for both men and women. The principle still applies today, however. A Christian woman should dress in a modest and careful way, with honorable and dignified attire that allows her to go anywhere with security and respect. In any sense, the point is to glorify God. Judges 21:11-14 ”This is what you are to do,“ they said. “Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin.” They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan. Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them. NIV Study Bible: Most of the Israelites in Jabesh Gilead were killed because they refused to join with Israel in the war against the Benjamites. Their sin was seen in not standing with God and his people against the heinous sin committed by some of their brothers. These were the acts of evil people and are not intended as a blueprint for how to treat women as you are alluding. This was not God’s instruction in this verse and it is certainly not something he would condone. CONTEXT…CONTEXT…CONTEXT!!! Jay Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #96 May 27, 2004 Very in depth analysis. And I'm sure the same kind of interpretations can be made of the Koran. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #97 May 27, 2004 QuoteVery in depth analysis. And I'm sure the same kind of interpretations can be made of the Koran. Probably so. I have never read any of the Quran so I couldn't say. I just believe things must be taken in context to get their full meaning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,006 #98 May 27, 2004 >You have to use context Billvon and not just pick and choose single verse >“zingers” to make your point. Without using context, one could make just >about any point he/she wants to make out of almost anything. Exactly! And the people who read the Koran and say "Hey, it says to kill people and then you get a bunch of virgins in heaven" are making exactly the same error. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #99 May 27, 2004 Quote>You have to use context Billvon and not just pick and choose single verse >“zingers” to make your point. Without using context, one could make just >about any point he/she wants to make out of almost anything. Exactly! And the people who read the Koran and say "Hey, it says to kill people and then you get a bunch of virgins in heaven" are making exactly the same error. Problamente, si. Like I said, however, I've not read the Quran so I couldn't say for sure. I'd like to see a Muslim out there quote something like that from the Quran, put it into context, and display its proper meaning. Darius11??? It would be interesting to see if the terrorists are, in fact, taking it out of context. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #100 May 27, 2004 As a general rule. You will go to haven if you are a mortar and die in the name of God. What is considered dieing in the name of god I guess is up to interpretation? War or Jihad(war in the name of god or for god) is a last result. Does every Muslim follow what the Koran says No. People translate the Koran in there own perspective many many times. Like almost all religious books you can decide what is important to you and what you might not agree with. The spin that is put on religion is also very important. I remember in school for example they would talk about how you’re not allowed to have sex before marriage. In the Koran you are allowed to have sex before marriage as long as it is recorded with whom. I for example do not believe that drinking is agents Islam. I think being drunk is. Am I right? I have no idea I’ll tell you when I die. I think the main point or my main point is for people do realize that every religion has parts that might seem wrong at this present time. The Muslim religion again I think was meant to be retranslated to fit current times. Many argue that it is not. We should all just remember not to put judgment on a whole race or group for the actions of a few people. Religion just like a friend or loved one you might have must be taken as a whole. We all have parts that might not be liked and if we only concentrate on them that is all we will see. As to the exact sora I have too look it up I have an English version of the Koran also.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
