PhillyKev 0 #26 May 25, 2004 Let's throw some numbers into the equation. A bunch of assumptions but just for demonstration purposes. 1million white employees, 300,000 blacks. All are equally qualified. 10 employers. 1 of them is racist and only hire whites. The other 9 hire fairly. Each employer hires 100,000 people. What you will have is the fair employers hiring 77% whites and 23% blacks to match the population. That's about 693k whites and 207k blacks. In addition you have the racist employer hiriing 100k whites. Net result, 793k whites employed and 207k blacks. That means that 79% of the whites have jobs but only 69% of the blacks. Gee, I wonder why there is a higher percentage of blacks that are unemployed. Yes, these are arbitrary numbers, but the formula carries over to any equitable comparison. Once you insert one racist employer into the equation, there will be blacks of equal or better qualifications not getting jobs in favor of whites. No, it's not fair to the employer that is forced to hire a less qualified person. But it isn't fair to that person to have to apply for a job he is less qualified for, when he was more qualified than a white guy who was hired by someone else. So, neither way is fair. Sure, there are laws to prevent discrimination, but they don't always work. The question is, what is more fair? Forcing employers to hire a few people who are slightly less qualified then another applicant, or allowing institutionalized racism to continue propagating unequitable levels of poverty and unemployment for millions of people? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,537 #27 May 25, 2004 QuoteWell then in that case there ARE going to be more white engineers at NASA than black engineer's...And You should not have to hire 33% of blacks to be "Fair" Yes, there are more white people than black at NASA; there are more white college graduates. That's OK. We target some semi-local historically black colleges for recruitment efforts to help ensure that we have a good mix. There are other historically-black colleges that we don't target because we haven't had a good an experience with their graduates -- we don't discriminate, but we don't go out of our way to look for them either. The local school with probably the highest standards locally is Rice University; we don't target them, either, because in our organization, we haven't had good retention from their graduates. Most of their graduates are very smart and well-qualified, but aren't necessarily what we're looking for. Before you can look at discrimination, you have to have a pretty good idea of what kind of employee you're looking for (besides "someone I like"); that way you can begin to come up with some apples-to-apples comparisons. What am I saying here? Well, mainly, that a decent number of organizations tend to pick as determinants of merit things that reflect what their personal experiences value, without considering whether those personal experiences limit the pool unnecessarily. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seekfun 0 #28 May 25, 2004 Please hold the stoning until I can don my armor and shield. Afirmative Action has been carried off and ruined by the attorneys, I'm afraid. It no longer serves the spirit of law under which it was created. Has anyone been to a Hooters recently? Have you noticed wait staff that are not...how shall I say this...Hooterific? Have you noticed male waitstaff? I'm not trying to say anything about Hooters. But, I will say that Hooters' corporate image is built around hiring a certain type of person - evil as that may be, it's part of the product they are selling. It pisses me off that some people can't accept the fact that they're not Hooters material. No, they have to sue someone and start swinging the 'equal rights' flag. We're guaranteed equal protection under the law, folks. We're not guaranteed a life of wealthy bliss and splendor without any effort or associated opportunity costs. Bad things are not always someone else's fault. In fact, they rarely are. I've got grey hairs coming in too soon; Hollywood never calls me; I've got my Grandfather's nose; my legs are bowed and I still bear a Pop-Tart scar from when I was 14. Am I sitting around waiting for The Chippendales to call with a job offer? No. Take responsibility for yourself people. If you expect your elected representatives to legislate you the American Dream, don't hold your breath. Or, go ahead and hold your breath. The gene pool could use a little thinning. I'll put my battle dress on now... topher "...there is a there out there..." - Tom Robbins Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #29 May 25, 2004 Quote agree with you. But the fact of the matter is, there are white racists who will hire less qualified white people. Then there are fair people, who will hire the most qualified. But that creates an imbalance. If there were a bunch of minority owned companies that hired less qualified blacks, it would balance out. But there aren't. Then more blacks should work like hell to own companies huh? QuoteThe fact of the matter is that racism does exist from both sides, but the net result in the work force is that more underqualified whites are hired because they are white because or racism. AA tries to level the field for the work force. So its OK to hire less qualified blacks just because someone else will hire the less qualified white? So you think its OK to have government sponsored Racism as long as it benefits minorities?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KATO33 0 #30 May 25, 2004 QuoteYou've taken quite a defeated stance here. It's kind of like, well, there's nothing we can do, so why bother? You may have misunderstood my statement. I didn't say voting doesn't help. It's not the end all be all to getting things done. Just so you know I've never quit anything in my life. Got the AFF log book to prove it. Blue Skies Black Death Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #31 May 25, 2004 Yes, maybe I misunderstood, but I also think you overlooked part of my statement. There's more to politics and government than voting. There's lobbying and other, more explicitly persuasive ways of getting what you want, particularly in the realm of funding for schools. Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #32 May 25, 2004 QuoteWhat you will have is the fair employers hiring 77% whites and 23% blacks to match the population. That's about 693k whites and 207k blacks. Here is where your whole thing goes to shit. The "fair" employers would hire the best canidates...Not a %. QuoteNo, it's not fair to the employer that is forced to hire a less qualified person. But it isn't fair to that person to have to apply for a job he is less qualified for, when he was more qualified than a white guy who was hired by someone else. Its also not fair to the guy that didn't get the job becasue of quota's.....We have programs in place to PREVENT racism...But we also have programs that ENCOURAGE another form of racism (AA). Affermative action IS Racist. BTW I have attached a graph for you. It shows how more white kids (%) get a high school diploma than black or hispanic....Well the first step is for the black and hispanics to stay in school at the smae RATE as white kids.... Now if you will excuse me I have to go and prevent some black kid from getting a high school diploma, then I have to help some random white kid with his homework. Its the kids fault and his or her parents fault they don't finish and get a good job. But you would rather support racism in the form of AA."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #33 May 25, 2004 its hard to do well in school when you have: 1. teachers with no experience and no credentials 2. no textbooks, or textbooks that are so outdated that they don't even include the Vietnam War. The books are in extremely poor conditions, sometimes with entire chapters missing. 3. schools with condemned buildings, ceilings falling down, roofs leaking 4. nowhere quiet at home to study because you are crammed into a one bedroom apartment with your mom and four younger siblings, one of whom is teething. 5. a parent thats never around to help you with your homework because she has to go to work to pay the rent and can't afford a babysitter or tutor, so you're stuck watching your four siblings. Plus, mom couldn't help you anyway, because she didn't finish school herself and doesn't understand your homework. 6. no working phone line, so the teacher can't call home to talk to mom, and can't have an in-person conference because mom is either working or doesn't have transportation to get to the school 7. no money for pens, pencils, paper or notebooks on the other hand, growing up, I had: 1. teachers, who on the average, had at least ten to fifteen years experience 2. brand new textbooks every few years with up to date info. 3. schools with brand new theatres, pools, athletic fields, libraries with thousands of books, a computer center, and many after school clubs 4. my own room, where I could go and close the door and be left alone to do my schoolwork 5. a mom with college degree who was home in the afternoons and evenings to help me with homework and projects if I had questions 6. parents who were at every single parent/teacher conference, and who would whup my butt if a teacher ever had to call home for something I did or didn't do. They were also reachable by email and work phone numbers. 7. free access to books, computers, supplies, libraries, and other resources. There are reasons why kids don't do well in school. Sometimes its their fault. Sometimes, it isn't. Personally, I don't think I'd have done so well in the first environment I described. I did very well in the second. Both schools I described are southern California public schools. Only about an hour's drive from each other, but they might as well be worlds apart. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #34 May 25, 2004 QuoteSo its OK to hire less qualified blacks just because someone else will hire the less qualified white? So you think its OK to have government sponsored Racism as long as it benefits minorities? Since institutionalized racism exists, yes, I do think it is ok. If it didn't then it wouldn't be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #35 May 25, 2004 QuoteThere are reasons why kids don't do well in school. Sometimes its their fault. Sometimes, it isn't. Personally, I don't think I'd have done so well in the first environment I described. I did very well in the second. Both schools I described are southern California public schools. Only about an hour's drive from each other, but they might as well be worlds apart. But none of your reasons have anything to do with racism....It has to do with economics. Some of my high school books didn't cover Vietnam. I still learned about it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #36 May 25, 2004 QuoteHere is where your whole thing goes to shit. The "fair" employers would hire the best canidates...Not a %. You missed part of what I said. They are EQUALLY qualifed. I didn't say hire a % of the population, I said hire a % of equally qualified applicants. The laws of probability state that the % would match up if the employers are truly fair. QuoteIts also not fair to the guy that didn't get the job becasue of quota's..... And it's not fair to the guy who didn't get the job because of racism. QuoteWe have programs in place to PREVENT racism They don't always work. As I said, life isn't fair. The idea is what is most fair to the population as a whole. When you're dealing with social policy a macro approach needs to be taken to be the most fair. QuoteAffermative action IS Racist. Of course it is. But it's also the right thing to do for the population as a whole. QuoteIt shows how more white kids (%) get a high school diploma than black or hispanic....Well the first step is for the black and hispanics to stay in school at the smae RATE as white kids.... That would be the 2nd step. The first step would be to elliminate the disparity in the quality of education the groups receive because of biased funding policies that use unequitable methods for determining educational expenditures. QuoteNow if you will excuse me I have to go and prevent some black kid from getting a high school diploma, then I have to help some random white kid with his homework. Its the kids fault and his or her parents fault they don't finish and get a good job. Partly, and it's also partly societies fault. QuoteBut you would rather support racism in the form of AA. No, I would rather it didn't exist at all. But it does, and AA levels the playing field. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #37 May 25, 2004 QuoteThere are other historically-black colleges that we don't target because we haven't had a good an experience with their graduates -- we don't discriminate, but we don't go out of our way to look for them either. Uh, yes that is dicrimination. QuoteThe local school with probably the highest standards locally is Rice University; we don't target them, either, because in our organization, we haven't had good retention from their graduates. Most of their graduates are very smart and well-qualified, but aren't necessarily what we're looking for. More discrimination. QuoteBefore you can look at discrimination, you have to have a pretty good idea of what kind of employee you're looking for (besides "someone I like"); that way you can begin to come up with some apples-to-apples comparisons. Seems to me like you have discriminated against a few places already. QuoteWhat am I saying here? Well, mainly, that a decent number of organizations tend to pick as determinants of merit things that reflect what their personal experiences value, without considering whether those personal experiences limit the pool unnecessarily. So NASA is racist? As are many organizations. So the best answer you can come up with is to make organizations hire less qualified people to be fair? Hint: Thats not fair...Its discrimination....Just in this case you approve of it so its OK in your book."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #38 May 25, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Its also not fair to the guy that didn't get the job becasue of quota's..... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And it's not fair to the guy who didn't get the job because of racism. So your racism is OK? And the other is not? Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Affermative action IS Racist. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Of course it is. But it's also the right thing to do for the population as a whole. Says you...I want to play in the NBA, but I'm short...Is that MY fault? I think the NBA should have to hire more short people....Otherwise its unfair and should have AA put into place. Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It shows how more white kids (%) get a high school diploma than black or hispanic....Well the first step is for the black and hispanics to stay in school at the smae RATE as white kids.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That would be the 2nd step. The first step would be to elliminate the disparity in the quality of education the groups receive because of biased funding policies that use unequitable methods for determining educational expenditures. If more black kids went to school and finished...Then funding would go up. QuoteQuote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now if you will excuse me I have to go and prevent some black kid from getting a high school diploma, then I have to help some random white kid with his homework. Its the kids fault and his or her parents fault they don't finish and get a good job. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Partly, and it's also partly societies fault. Socitiey IS him and his family...Its not MY fault that more black kids don't finish school. Quote"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #39 May 25, 2004 QuoteSo your racism is OK? And the other is not? White racism causes a disproportionate number of blacks to be un or underemployed. AA corrects that problem, so yes. QuoteSays you...I want to play in the NBA, but I'm short...Is that MY fault? I think the NBA should have to hire more short people....Otherwise its unfair and should have AA put into place. I didn't know short was a race. And I didn't know that a disproportionate number of short people who are JUST AS QUALIFIED (that's the part you keep ignoring) are not being hired as basketball players. QuoteIf more black kids went to school and finished...Then funding would go up. Around here funding for schools is based on property taxes. Property values are lower in minority neighborhoods. People who do well in school move out of poor neighborhoods. It has ZERO effect on funding if people succeed, because the move out leaving the people behind in the same situation. QuoteSocitiey IS him and his family...Its not MY fault that more black kids don't finish school. Because you oppose AA which would allow more blacks to make more money and move to better neighborhoods with better schools, it is your fault. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,537 #40 May 25, 2004 So in other words, we can't have any recruitment drives unless we cover every college in what -- the county? state? country? That would be geographical discrimination. So I guess that would mean that either we advertise our jobs in every single newspaper in the country, or go to every single job fair on every single campus, or none of them. Give me a break. You accept and evaluate fairly the candidates who are motivated to come to you. If you're not getting the breadth you seek, then you go looking. If you have regular bad luck with some, then you evaluate fairly those who are motivated to come to you, but you don't go looking for them. One of the qualifications we look for is a likelihood to stay working here for a significant period of time. What is the qualification for that? Should we include "married with children and a new house" as a hiring criterium? What are your criteria for jumping with someone? Do you discriminate only based on jump numbers, or SDU certificates, or are there other, less tangible qualities that you look for in a fun jump? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #41 May 25, 2004 I disagree with this. If 20% of grads are black, 80% white, but what is the avg gpa of the groups? Were the blacks a bunch of football jocks in on athletic scholarships? This could drag their gpa down. The ratios don't matter, the actual results do, the plotted gpas for the class of grads. If 40% of unskilled labor is black, and there's a company with 15% blacks in the labor force, if you look at job applications, what percent were black? If only 10% of the applications were from blacks, why should 40% of their work force be black? If that is the case then they would have to hire virtually every black individual regardless of actual qualifications, eliminating better qualified individuals solely due to race. Statistics can say anything that you want them to, they are easily manipulated, so to use basic stats for a complex problem with infinite variables is just asking for trouble. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #42 May 25, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So your racism is OK? And the other is not? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- White racism causes a disproportionate number of blacks to be un or underemployed. AA corrects that problem, so yes. Thats pretty much it folks...He supports racism as long as he thinks its OK...Would you tell the KKK that? I mean they think its OK also. Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If more black kids went to school and finished...Then funding would go up. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Around here funding for schools is based on property taxes. Property values are lower in minority neighborhoods. People who do well in school move out of poor neighborhoods. It has ZERO effect on funding if people succeed, because the move out leaving the people behind in the same situation. Then I guess you need to make it more attractive to live in those areas huh? Maybe you could force a few rich white folks to move there..you seem to like forcing people to do things. QuoteSocitiey IS him and his family...Its not MY fault that more black kids don't finish school. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because you oppose AA which would allow more blacks to make more money and move to better neighborhoods with better schools, it is your fault. ______________________________________ Wrong home boy, I don't support AA cause it racist. And I have faith that the people who want it bad enough will make it happen..... You clearly would rather punish the people who can perform to allow others to get a free ride...."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #43 May 25, 2004 QuoteYou accept and evaluate fairly the candidates who are motivated to come to you. If you're not getting the breadth you seek, then you go looking. If you have regular bad luck with some, then you evaluate fairly those who are motivated to come to you, but you don't go looking for them. You have already said you go looking for them, just not at some places, thats discrimination. QuoteOne of the qualifications we look for is a likelihood to stay working here for a significant period of time. What is the qualification for that? Should we include "married with children and a new house" as a hiring criterium? That also would be discrimination...I quit a job over that issue...The older employees that I supervised got paid more...When I found out that the boss was paying them more since they had families I quit. Quote What are your criteria for jumping with someone? Do you discriminate only based on jump numbers, or SDU certificates, or are there other, less tangible qualities that you look for in a fun jump? On a fun jump I don't look for anything...For a team I look at past performance, and attitude....I can assure you that color does not come into play, or race....You know this."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuckbrown 0 #44 May 25, 2004 QuoteHow do we ensure Schools in predominately minority population gets funded on par with the white schools. . I'm actually with you on this one. In many states (including PA) school funding is obtained on the basis of real estate property values which, you guessed it, are lower in the poorer minority areas. It is a problem, but so are the teacher's unions who sue every time somebody wants to start a charter school that competes with the local school district. The whole Democrat opposition to school vouchers just pisses me off to no end. The public school teachers unions do more to keep inner city kids uneducated than anyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wmw999 2,537 #45 May 25, 2004 QuoteYou have already said you go looking for them, just not at some places, thats discrimination. We can't afford to go looking at all places. Some places we go looking are historically white, some are historically black. We advertise nationally and locally, and accept and evaluate all applications. You suggest we do no recruiting whatsoever as a way to ensure fairness? I can only imagine the screams of waste of taxpayers' money if we send recruiters to all campuses in the US. QuoteFor a team I look at past performance, and attitude....I can assure you that color does not come into play, or race....You know this. How would I know? And how do you evaluate attitude? Would it be by culturally-sensitive attributes? Would someone who was raised by a gentle family, who is better but not as verbally gung-ho and aggressive, be evaluated fairly? How about someone who was overtly gay and had a lavender helmet, but was a really good skydiver? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #46 May 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteThere are reasons why kids don't do well in school. Sometimes its their fault. Sometimes, it isn't. Personally, I don't think I'd have done so well in the first environment I described. I did very well in the second. Both schools I described are southern California public schools. Only about an hour's drive from each other, but they might as well be worlds apart. But none of your reasons have anything to do with racism....It has to do with economics. Some of my high school books didn't cover Vietnam. I still learned about it. Now you think it perfectly normal and fair that Prescott Bush, who made a fortune dealing with the Nazis, leaves his fortune to GeorgeHW, who in turn bankrolls GWB's businesses and gets GWB into Yale despite rotten grades. But you deny that economic and educational disadvantage resulting from two centuries of racism can propagate more than a generation. You are living in Cloud-Cuckoo Land.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #47 May 25, 2004 I wasn't trying to cover every scenario. As I stated, the formula can be applied to any make up of statistical facts that you want. The bottom line is that because there exists employers who discriminate against blacks, there will be less blacks proportionally employed than whites even when ALL other attributes including GPA, etc. are equal. There are fair employers and unfair employers. The unfair employers in this regard are hiring a disproportionate number of EQUALLY qualified whites than blacks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #48 May 25, 2004 QuoteWe can't afford to go looking at all places. Some places we go looking are historically white, some are historically black. We advertise nationally and locally, and accept and evaluate all applications. You suggest we do no recruiting whatsoever as a way to ensure fairness? I can only imagine the screams of waste of taxpayers' money if we send recruiters to all campuses in the US. To quote you QuoteThere are other historically-black colleges that we don't target because we haven't had a good an experience with their graduates The local school with probably the highest standards locally is Rice University; we don't target them, either, because in our organization, we haven't had good retention from their graduates. Most of their graduates are very smart and well-qualified, but aren't necessarily what we're looking for. All discrimination....Of course its OK cause you say it is OK. But it is still discrimination. Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For a team I look at past performance, and attitude....I can assure you that color does not come into play, or race....You know this. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How would I know? You would know since you and I went rounds on this back in the post about the mexican girl that was here illegally... You looked at my website and saw that out of a 4way team only I was an American. QuoteAnd how do you evaluate attitude? Depends...I don't have a checksheet."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #49 May 25, 2004 QuoteNow you think it perfectly normal and fair that Prescott Bush, who made a fortune dealing with the Nazis, leaves his fortune to GeorgeHW, who in turn bankrolls GWB's businesses and gets GWB into Yale despite rotten grades. But you deny that economic and educational disadvantage resulting from two centuries of racism can propagate more than a generation. You are living in Cloud-Cuckoo Land. WOW Doc, you managaed to slam Bush and bring in the NAZI's in one post!!!!! I don't see how the NAZI's tie into this...But you got your slam in against Bush so you can move along now. Besides...Lincon was not rich....And if you want to bring in the past how about how JFK's grand dad was a smugler and a stock manipulator? Still has about as much relevence to this thread as your post did..Oh yeah and Clinton was a liar!!!"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,106 #50 May 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteNow you think it perfectly normal and fair that Prescott Bush, who made a fortune dealing with the Nazis, leaves his fortune to GeorgeHW, who in turn bankrolls GWB's businesses and gets GWB into Yale despite rotten grades. But you deny that economic and educational disadvantage resulting from two centuries of racism can propagate more than a generation. You are living in Cloud-Cuckoo Land. WOW Doc, you managaed to slam Bush and bring in the NAZI's in one post!!!!! I don't see how the NAZI's tie into this...But you got your slam in against Bush so you can move along now. Besides...Lincon was not rich....And if you want to bring in the past how about how JFK's grand dad was a smugler and a stock manipulator? Still has about as much relevence to this thread as your post did..Oh yeah and Clinton was a liar!!! Read it again - it's about propagation of advantage vs disadvantage. AA is about correcting for 2+ centuries of disadvantage. It WILL take more than a generation. And hey, I didn't ask Prescott B. do do business with Nazis - don't blame me for the source of the family fortune. I don't like Joe Kennedy either - sleazball should have been shot for treason alongside Prescott.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 9 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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PhillyKev 0 #39 May 25, 2004 QuoteSo your racism is OK? And the other is not? White racism causes a disproportionate number of blacks to be un or underemployed. AA corrects that problem, so yes. QuoteSays you...I want to play in the NBA, but I'm short...Is that MY fault? I think the NBA should have to hire more short people....Otherwise its unfair and should have AA put into place. I didn't know short was a race. And I didn't know that a disproportionate number of short people who are JUST AS QUALIFIED (that's the part you keep ignoring) are not being hired as basketball players. QuoteIf more black kids went to school and finished...Then funding would go up. Around here funding for schools is based on property taxes. Property values are lower in minority neighborhoods. People who do well in school move out of poor neighborhoods. It has ZERO effect on funding if people succeed, because the move out leaving the people behind in the same situation. QuoteSocitiey IS him and his family...Its not MY fault that more black kids don't finish school. Because you oppose AA which would allow more blacks to make more money and move to better neighborhoods with better schools, it is your fault. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,537 #40 May 25, 2004 So in other words, we can't have any recruitment drives unless we cover every college in what -- the county? state? country? That would be geographical discrimination. So I guess that would mean that either we advertise our jobs in every single newspaper in the country, or go to every single job fair on every single campus, or none of them. Give me a break. You accept and evaluate fairly the candidates who are motivated to come to you. If you're not getting the breadth you seek, then you go looking. If you have regular bad luck with some, then you evaluate fairly those who are motivated to come to you, but you don't go looking for them. One of the qualifications we look for is a likelihood to stay working here for a significant period of time. What is the qualification for that? Should we include "married with children and a new house" as a hiring criterium? What are your criteria for jumping with someone? Do you discriminate only based on jump numbers, or SDU certificates, or are there other, less tangible qualities that you look for in a fun jump? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #41 May 25, 2004 I disagree with this. If 20% of grads are black, 80% white, but what is the avg gpa of the groups? Were the blacks a bunch of football jocks in on athletic scholarships? This could drag their gpa down. The ratios don't matter, the actual results do, the plotted gpas for the class of grads. If 40% of unskilled labor is black, and there's a company with 15% blacks in the labor force, if you look at job applications, what percent were black? If only 10% of the applications were from blacks, why should 40% of their work force be black? If that is the case then they would have to hire virtually every black individual regardless of actual qualifications, eliminating better qualified individuals solely due to race. Statistics can say anything that you want them to, they are easily manipulated, so to use basic stats for a complex problem with infinite variables is just asking for trouble. Jen Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #42 May 25, 2004 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So your racism is OK? And the other is not? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- White racism causes a disproportionate number of blacks to be un or underemployed. AA corrects that problem, so yes. Thats pretty much it folks...He supports racism as long as he thinks its OK...Would you tell the KKK that? I mean they think its OK also. Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If more black kids went to school and finished...Then funding would go up. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Around here funding for schools is based on property taxes. Property values are lower in minority neighborhoods. People who do well in school move out of poor neighborhoods. It has ZERO effect on funding if people succeed, because the move out leaving the people behind in the same situation. Then I guess you need to make it more attractive to live in those areas huh? Maybe you could force a few rich white folks to move there..you seem to like forcing people to do things. QuoteSocitiey IS him and his family...Its not MY fault that more black kids don't finish school. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Because you oppose AA which would allow more blacks to make more money and move to better neighborhoods with better schools, it is your fault. ______________________________________ Wrong home boy, I don't support AA cause it racist. And I have faith that the people who want it bad enough will make it happen..... You clearly would rather punish the people who can perform to allow others to get a free ride...."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #43 May 25, 2004 QuoteYou accept and evaluate fairly the candidates who are motivated to come to you. If you're not getting the breadth you seek, then you go looking. If you have regular bad luck with some, then you evaluate fairly those who are motivated to come to you, but you don't go looking for them. You have already said you go looking for them, just not at some places, thats discrimination. QuoteOne of the qualifications we look for is a likelihood to stay working here for a significant period of time. What is the qualification for that? Should we include "married with children and a new house" as a hiring criterium? That also would be discrimination...I quit a job over that issue...The older employees that I supervised got paid more...When I found out that the boss was paying them more since they had families I quit. Quote What are your criteria for jumping with someone? Do you discriminate only based on jump numbers, or SDU certificates, or are there other, less tangible qualities that you look for in a fun jump? On a fun jump I don't look for anything...For a team I look at past performance, and attitude....I can assure you that color does not come into play, or race....You know this."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #44 May 25, 2004 QuoteHow do we ensure Schools in predominately minority population gets funded on par with the white schools. . I'm actually with you on this one. In many states (including PA) school funding is obtained on the basis of real estate property values which, you guessed it, are lower in the poorer minority areas. It is a problem, but so are the teacher's unions who sue every time somebody wants to start a charter school that competes with the local school district. The whole Democrat opposition to school vouchers just pisses me off to no end. The public school teachers unions do more to keep inner city kids uneducated than anyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,537 #45 May 25, 2004 QuoteYou have already said you go looking for them, just not at some places, thats discrimination. We can't afford to go looking at all places. Some places we go looking are historically white, some are historically black. We advertise nationally and locally, and accept and evaluate all applications. You suggest we do no recruiting whatsoever as a way to ensure fairness? I can only imagine the screams of waste of taxpayers' money if we send recruiters to all campuses in the US. QuoteFor a team I look at past performance, and attitude....I can assure you that color does not come into play, or race....You know this. How would I know? And how do you evaluate attitude? Would it be by culturally-sensitive attributes? Would someone who was raised by a gentle family, who is better but not as verbally gung-ho and aggressive, be evaluated fairly? How about someone who was overtly gay and had a lavender helmet, but was a really good skydiver? Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #46 May 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteThere are reasons why kids don't do well in school. Sometimes its their fault. Sometimes, it isn't. Personally, I don't think I'd have done so well in the first environment I described. I did very well in the second. Both schools I described are southern California public schools. Only about an hour's drive from each other, but they might as well be worlds apart. But none of your reasons have anything to do with racism....It has to do with economics. Some of my high school books didn't cover Vietnam. I still learned about it. Now you think it perfectly normal and fair that Prescott Bush, who made a fortune dealing with the Nazis, leaves his fortune to GeorgeHW, who in turn bankrolls GWB's businesses and gets GWB into Yale despite rotten grades. But you deny that economic and educational disadvantage resulting from two centuries of racism can propagate more than a generation. You are living in Cloud-Cuckoo Land.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #47 May 25, 2004 I wasn't trying to cover every scenario. As I stated, the formula can be applied to any make up of statistical facts that you want. The bottom line is that because there exists employers who discriminate against blacks, there will be less blacks proportionally employed than whites even when ALL other attributes including GPA, etc. are equal. There are fair employers and unfair employers. The unfair employers in this regard are hiring a disproportionate number of EQUALLY qualified whites than blacks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #48 May 25, 2004 QuoteWe can't afford to go looking at all places. Some places we go looking are historically white, some are historically black. We advertise nationally and locally, and accept and evaluate all applications. You suggest we do no recruiting whatsoever as a way to ensure fairness? I can only imagine the screams of waste of taxpayers' money if we send recruiters to all campuses in the US. To quote you QuoteThere are other historically-black colleges that we don't target because we haven't had a good an experience with their graduates The local school with probably the highest standards locally is Rice University; we don't target them, either, because in our organization, we haven't had good retention from their graduates. Most of their graduates are very smart and well-qualified, but aren't necessarily what we're looking for. All discrimination....Of course its OK cause you say it is OK. But it is still discrimination. Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For a team I look at past performance, and attitude....I can assure you that color does not come into play, or race....You know this. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How would I know? You would know since you and I went rounds on this back in the post about the mexican girl that was here illegally... You looked at my website and saw that out of a 4way team only I was an American. QuoteAnd how do you evaluate attitude? Depends...I don't have a checksheet."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #49 May 25, 2004 QuoteNow you think it perfectly normal and fair that Prescott Bush, who made a fortune dealing with the Nazis, leaves his fortune to GeorgeHW, who in turn bankrolls GWB's businesses and gets GWB into Yale despite rotten grades. But you deny that economic and educational disadvantage resulting from two centuries of racism can propagate more than a generation. You are living in Cloud-Cuckoo Land. WOW Doc, you managaed to slam Bush and bring in the NAZI's in one post!!!!! I don't see how the NAZI's tie into this...But you got your slam in against Bush so you can move along now. Besides...Lincon was not rich....And if you want to bring in the past how about how JFK's grand dad was a smugler and a stock manipulator? Still has about as much relevence to this thread as your post did..Oh yeah and Clinton was a liar!!!"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #50 May 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteNow you think it perfectly normal and fair that Prescott Bush, who made a fortune dealing with the Nazis, leaves his fortune to GeorgeHW, who in turn bankrolls GWB's businesses and gets GWB into Yale despite rotten grades. But you deny that economic and educational disadvantage resulting from two centuries of racism can propagate more than a generation. You are living in Cloud-Cuckoo Land. WOW Doc, you managaed to slam Bush and bring in the NAZI's in one post!!!!! I don't see how the NAZI's tie into this...But you got your slam in against Bush so you can move along now. Besides...Lincon was not rich....And if you want to bring in the past how about how JFK's grand dad was a smugler and a stock manipulator? Still has about as much relevence to this thread as your post did..Oh yeah and Clinton was a liar!!! Read it again - it's about propagation of advantage vs disadvantage. AA is about correcting for 2+ centuries of disadvantage. It WILL take more than a generation. And hey, I didn't ask Prescott B. do do business with Nazis - don't blame me for the source of the family fortune. I don't like Joe Kennedy either - sleazball should have been shot for treason alongside Prescott.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
