If not AA Then What??

[PhillyKev 0]

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This is where you have to step away from the big picture and look at the individuals.

Here .

Can't give you one of the real things, but I will if I ever get the chance.

Will work for

[Jib 0]

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That's true. The culture in black communities is a direct cause for their diversity...errrrr, adversity . But you have to examine why that culture exists. Are they isolated from the rest of society? No. All of society is responsible for the culture that exists in black communities. Specifically racism against blacks. One of the worst results of the institutionalized racism against blacks is that even blacks are racist against blacks.

Yeah, look at Bill Cosby making comments about $500 sneakers. It's racism that the problem.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[Snowflake 0]

I tried I really did god damn it I should have never looked at this thread

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"Irish Need Not Apply"

Hey my people were oppressed when they got here too. But you know what they did about it? They worked there asses off. They kept trying harder and harder to succeed, and guess what they did.

The implication I get from you is that blacks didn't want to succeed. I must disagree were talking about two differnt situations

First the Irish who immigrated were allowed to keep there culture and religion and in fact were free. Wives were not raped in front of their husbands. Familys were not torn apart at the drop of a hat or should I say dollar. The persecution of the Irish was basically only for a generation and then they were more than happy to jump on the nigger hating wagon and as a plus they got to persecute the Italians as they came over. The slaves were not allowed to keep their language, culture, or religion. For generations wives were raped in front of their husbands (I'm sure more then a few slaves lost thier lives during this phase of the indoctrination). For generations familys were torn apart for $$$$. As a bonus blacks got to be whipping boys for the latest immigrants in America, who I'm sure breathed a sigh of relief when they realized they wern't at the absolute bottom of the social ladder.


These are two different situations nowhere close to being the same in duration or degradation.

As far as AA well my father was part of the first balck graduating class at Brown. He probably wouldn't have gotten in otherwise and it would have had nothing to do with his ability. My father was close to genius and could solve quadranomials in his head fairly easily and play master level chess. I feel it's still necessary.

As far as the whole racisim vs Black determination I think the awnser is in the middle and neither side wants to admit their faults. Whites don't want to admit racisim and will happily grab on to any data proving otherwise. Blacks don't want to admit their own resposibility and will happily grab onto any data proving otherwise. It's a combination of both but good luck getting either side to truly admit it.

The part I find distastful is listining to people talk about founding fathers and our country, when in fact this country was stolen from the indiginous people of this country. Said people were then almost exterminated put into concentration camps where quit a few still live . treated like shit to this day and for all the talk of fairness from the American Government they have recieved almost nothing in recompensation, and they never will if I know how the American government works and I do


PS I found it interesting that when I mentioned getting pulled over and searched for DWB, that only one response admitted that this happens(thanks Kallend) the others implied that I must have been mistaken or was just flat out lying. I think that speaks volumes for my second to last paragraph

[Jib 0]

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Wives were not raped in front of their husbands. Familys were not torn apart at the drop of a hat or should I say dollar.

I understand you're trying to make a distinction, but that's about reparations or punishment, not leveling the proverbial playing field.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[PhillyKev 0]

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I understand you're trying to make a distinction, but that's about reparations or punishment, not leveling the proverbial playing field.

What I believe he was addressing was why the black community is not as successful as it could be. You don't think that kind of thing causes irreperable harm to a society that would exist for generations?

[Kennedy 0]

Yes, terrible things were done. But how does the fact that people were tortured 150 years ago have to do with people's ability today?

How many generations of tipping it the other way will it take before "the playing field is level?"

I went into some of the less picturesque parts of Birmingham the other day. I was called every slur and epithet I'd ever heard, and a few new ones. I was also told that I was not welcome in a shop. So I have been victim of a hate crime and racism. My father was denied entry into law school because of affirmative action quotas (the letter actually said so - he was a better candidate, but they needed blacks).

So, I've been victim of hate crimes and have suffered economically. When do I get legislative racism in my favor? When do I get protected status? When do I get handouts?

Why do people think racism will cure racism?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[billvon 3,070]

>Do you write stuff like that on student's papers, too?

You leave John alone, or he will taunt you a second time.

[Kennedy 0]

So you're saying it is a cultural problem (in the black culture). So who is going to be able to fix a cultural problem...people in that culture or some bureaucrat in Washington?

And does anyone really think that by denying people equal rights they are going to stop racism?

When has more racism ever cured racism?


(apparently genocide is one example)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[PhillyKev 0]

Cultural is one of the many issues that were discussed in this thread. There isn't an easy answer. if there were the problem would be solved already.

[PhillyKev 0]

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Yes, terrible things were done. But how does the fact that people were tortured 150 years ago have to do with people's ability today?

I'll say again, since people don't seem to recall this fact (I guess too young maybe?) There are several generations STILL LIVING that were denied access to bathroom facilities and drinking water because they were black. Now try to imagine if people were callous enough to deny those basic things to them how much more was being done.

[Kennedy 0]

I still want to know how that makes it ok for the government to be racist against another group.


OK, here's a question. What criteria would you set for the end of affirmative action? When will things be good enough to end the institutionalized (reverse) racism?

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Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[PhillyKev 0]

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I still want to know how that makes it ok for the government to be racist against another group.

A long time back in this thread, I posted some numbers showing how one racist employer (that gets away with it) can significantly impact the ratio of EQUALLY qualified applicants.

The bottom line of that is that it is not being racist to another group. It is correcting a mistake caused by racism.

The end of affirmative action should come when the same ratio, or close to it, of EQUALLY qualified applicants are given jobs across a sector. Then affirmative action will no longer be necessary.

Please note that I'm not saying the ratio should match the population, so don't give me crap about blacks are too lazy to apply for the job.

If 10% of the qualified applicants for a specific type of job are black, and 10% of those that get the job are black, then it's no longer needed.

Or, how about this, we can end AA immediately if this is implemented. All job interviews or college entrance exams must be conducted in a manner that makes it impossible to determine race. So, you can't see the person, someone else listens to their respnoses and makes them for them removing any clues to race in the response, you can't know their name because they may indicate race, etc. I'm willing to bet a lot of money if that was done you would see an instantaneous and dramatic difference in the ratio of people hired.

[Snowflake 0]

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I understand you're trying to make a distinction, but that's about reparations or punishment, not leveling the proverbial playing field.

All I was pointing out that comparing the immigrants situation to the slaves situation is comparing apples to oranges.

In all honesty human nature being what it is there will never be a level playing field no matter it may tip to different sides but never level. Sad and hopefully not true but I doubt it

[diablopilot 2]

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White people in this country have had a 400 yr social, cultural, econimical, and educational headstart. So you are saying after 25 yrs. of "things being even" (even though things still aren't fair) but for the sake of argument lets say the past 25 yrs everything was even and fair. Even if we worked twice as hard on all of the community ills we'd still be 350 yrs. behind.

And who the hell said life was fair?

If life was fair, would I have to work 60% of my life away rather than enjoing myself? Why should some 19 year old brat get a new BMW for their birthday but I gotta drive around in a 88 Jeep Cherokee? Where's my free jumps? How come they get welfare but I dont?

Bullshit.

Life happens. Deal, don't dwell. I'm not suffering because someone else doesn't want to deal NO MATTER WHAT THEIR SKIN COLOR, shoe size, politcal party affiliation, personal religious beliefs, or any other lame ass criteria.

I didn't cause anyone's problems. Anyone who want's to try to lay a guilt trip on me through legislation can go and get bent.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Jib 0]

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The end of affirmative action should come when the same ratio, or close to it, of EQUALLY qualified applicants are given jobs across a sector. Then affirmative action will no longer be necessary.

WTF is an equally qualified applicant? How do you measure it? Unless you're talking about flipping burgers, there is no way. It's purely subjective. Just like why one person gets hired over another.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[Snowflake 0]

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Yes, terrible things were done. But how does the fact that people were tortured 150 years ago have to do with people's ability today?

Once again my post was made in regards a comparisan of immigrants to slaves, but to awnser your question. Lets just look at a child. I think we can all agree that a child thats beaten and tortured mentally and physically will not develop in what we call a normal fashion. Now apply that logic to a race that for generations was mentally and physically abused from birth till death and had no religion, or culture to fall back on. If you can't understand how that would leave a huge scar on the psyche of that race then you'll probably never understand.

While I really do sympathize with your dads situation. I always wonder how many people(no race) lose slots in college due to the GOB network. My guess is that number would be much higher than cases like your fathers, yet nothings ever mentioned about that(yea right GWB was smart enough to get in Yale on his own....ROTFLMAO).

No you haven't been hate crimed and neither have I and I've been whacked upside the head for simply having my arm around a white girl. I'm guessing your dad gave up his dreams of becoming a lawyer and was forced to became a dockworker and the family was forced to live on handouts till the end of their days.

You sure do love to spout of about the rights the "founding fathers" gave you etc, but you sure do hate when you have to pay for their sins.

[Snowflake 0]

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Off the top of my head I can think of a few races of people that overcame centuries of oppression. Consider the Mamluks in Egypt. Slaves from the 9th century on, they captured the caliphate between 1250-1260 AD.

Thats why the slave owners made sure slaves were not educated and took away their culture and language. They saw what happens if slaves are educated they eventually take over because they run everything important

[Snowflake 0]

Kato my man I feel ya. (note bad grammer and slang....do not hire sub standard individual). Your gonna find it's a lost cause and you'll be on the defensive and banging your head against the wall. I know what your trying to say and for the most part it's not accepted here. Unfortunatly trying for understanding here will not work most cannot even concieve your viewpoint leave it alone unless you like being flogged.

Peace Out

[PhillyKev 0]

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How come they get welfare but I dont?

Life isn't fair. Deal with it.

[PhillyKev 0]

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The end of affirmative action should come when the same ratio, or close to it, of EQUALLY qualified applicants are given jobs across a sector. Then affirmative action will no longer be necessary.

WTF is an equally qualified applicant? How do you measure it? Unless you're talking about flipping burgers, there is no way. It's purely subjective. Just like why one person gets hired over another.

Do you do much hiring? Typically I look at someone's education, experience, and references. Those are easily measurable and objective.

[Jib 0]

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Thats why the slave owners made sure slaves were not educated and took away their culture and language. They saw what happens if slaves are educated they eventually take over because they run everything important

While that may be true, free public education wasn't all that common during slavery.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[Kennedy 0]

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Once again my post was made in regards a comparisan of immigrants to slaves, but to awnser your question. Lets just look at a child. I think we can all agree that a child thats beaten and tortured mentally and physically will not develop in what we call a normal fashion. Now apply that logic to a race that for generations was mentally and physically abused from birth till death and had no religion, or culture to fall back on. If you can't understand how that would leave a huge scar on the psyche of that race then you'll probably never understand.

That is were I just don't get it. A race does not have a collective psyche. The fact that my ancestors were tortured has no effect on my ability to do things. The fact that something was done to people similar to you in the past doesn't equate to that being done to you.

(I descend from the MacGregor clan of Scotland. They were beaten, tortured, enslaved, had the same indignities inflicted upon their women, and had their name stripped away under penalty of death. My ancestors were hunted, just the way slaves were. I don't feel an scars from it, and if you asked my great grandfather if he hurt because of it, well, he would've given you a talking to about what being a man really means.)

Do I ask you to pay for crimes committed by blacks? My best friend's grandfather was shot down in Newark when the town was in serious delcine in the late 60s. Should I blame your children for that? If not, then don't ask me to pay for another man's crimes.

Not that you care, but my father did have to give up on being a lawyer because he couldn't wait around for another openning. He worked a series of entry level jobs until he found a company where he prospered. He worked his ass off, and he just put himself back in debt to help me through college.

Thanks, but we don't take handouts.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Snowflake 0]

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While that may be true, free public education wasn't all that common during slavery.

No you miss the target by a mile. Educating a slave was a crime back then as a matter of fact it wasn't till the close to the 1900's that blacks were even allowed to read up until then it was not legal to teach a black person to read.

[Snowflake 0]

OHHHHHH fuck it your logic is so subjective and skewed. It's an absolute waste of my time.

Your right ........there feel better?

[Snowflake 0]

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Not that you care, but my father did have to give up on being a lawyer because he couldn't wait around for another openning

Then he didn't want it bad enough and whining about it aint gonna make it better

I'm outta this fucked up mess shoulda never got involved in the first place. I really do know better