Zoter 0 #251 June 3, 2004 I never said i thought it was justified....just said I saw things I didnt see previously Your presuming again... Dont presume Ron....you know how much trouble thats gotten you in the past Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #252 June 3, 2004 Zoter would rather lose a conflict than kill a few enemy arms suppliers.....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #253 June 3, 2004 QuoteWell it didnt really read that way....and certainly in the circumstances of the incident...I think the terminology used was inappropriate and deserved something a little bit more respectful I do have respect for basic human life. In that sense, I am troubled to see civilians injured or killed during conflict. I also have respect for the enemy's resourcefulness and ability to potentially kill me. In another sense, however, I have absolutely NO respect for an enemy with no honor. One that readily uses women and children as shields. One that uses places or worship as staging areas for attacks. One that decapitates civilians in a way no more humane than if you were to saw the head off a fish. I feel absolutely no sorrow for those Iraqi/insurgent soldiers who lost their lives. NONE! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #254 June 4, 2004 "the Uncle Sam - I Want You posters have been used as recently as 1999" Damn, I could have sworn they were more recent, Josh. Attachment courtesy of http://www.aerialfusion.com/otherstuffgallery.html -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #255 June 4, 2004 I guess at some point in the past or future, soldiers who are Christians are going to be asked by their governments to participate in a war they don't consider to be just. Does your church advise how they handle being pulled one direction by their faith and another by their elected leaders? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #256 June 4, 2004 QuoteI guess at some point in the past or future, soldiers who are Christians are going to be asked by their governments to participate in a war they don't consider to be just. Does your church advise how they handle being pulled one direction by their faith and another by their elected leaders? I personally try and look to Christian principals first before defaulting to what a particular church says. I do trust my church because I agree with their doctrine and believe the sincerity of its staff, however, I think the Bible is the basis and final authority on all subjects in question whatever church or denomination you might belong to. We are fortunate enough to have an all volunteer force. If someone has some sort of “hang-up” with the government or military, they aren’t required to serve. I’d suggest figuring that out ahead of time and not signing on the dotted line. I agree with the following and it explains far better than I could. It also addresses, at the end, the situation of someone who is forced into military service and may not agree with the intentions of the government or military leaders. http://www.carm.org/questions/war.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #257 June 4, 2004 http://www.carm.org/questions/war.htm Sorry about that...I got in a hurry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tunaplanet 0 #258 June 4, 2004 Quotewant our troops to fail since we don't like the president's policies. Even though you make this statement as sarcasm, it's in all actuality the most truthful one you've made. Keep up the good job. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites vmsfreaky1 0 #259 June 5, 2004 Quote..less dead Iraqis per annum is a good thing isn't it? That is simply not the case. The UN embargo of Iraq killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, this is a fact. The U.S invasion of Iraq is just adding to the overall toll, the U.S will be judged very harshly by future generations for its own genocide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #260 June 5, 2004 Good for you.... By the way...do you belong to the same movie club as Ron...? I'll sum it up.....too much aggression ...too soon....can help solve problems....but usually just creates them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #261 June 5, 2004 QuoteGood for you.... By the way...do you belong to the same movie club as Ron...? I'll sum it up.....too much aggression ...too soon....can help solve problems....but usually just creates them Probably. I have a long list of war movie favorites. That's not the basis for my opinions, however. "My" summary is that, if it has come to the last resort of war, you should hit fast, hard, and decisive. It's just the way I was taught and it seems to be working for us so far. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #262 June 5, 2004 QuoteZoter would rather lose a conflict than kill a few enemy arms suppliers..... Thats the most pathetic 'get out' of a discussion Ive seen yet on this forum...lol Far from it......as Ive hinted at many time already in this thread.....I dont have a problem at all with serving your country and doing what has to be done. Call me old fashioned...to me theres just a certain amount of honour of not murdering an enemy....just because I can .....as opposed to acting like a professional soldier and taking an alternate plan of action..if it is at all available I hope the Marines who shot that poor chap in the back..and then cheered and congratulated themselves about it, sleep well at night....when they return home after 'protecting' America.......I'll say from previous experience...they probably wont Awful lot diffrent from taking down somebody whos charging at you firing a weapon......very different Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #263 June 5, 2004 Last resorts? Injured enemy (single) trying to crawl away as hes injured.....no weapon in his hands....back towards you > 20 M away whilst your staring at him behind a wall from the barrel of an automatic rifle ....and with your 'buddies' doing the same... Last resort? lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #264 June 5, 2004 QuoteLast resorts? Injured enemy (single) trying to crawl away as hes injured.....no weapon in his hands....back towards you > 20 M away whilst your staring at him behind a wall from the barrel of an automatic rifle ....and with your 'buddies' doing the same... Last resort? lol Sorry. I was actually referring more to the helicopter footage. I said earlier that the ground Marine video definitely looks questionable. I also said, however, that it could be very deceiving. No one can really tell exactly what the circumstances were except for the people on the ground. Hopefully, there was adequate command & control by the leaders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #265 June 5, 2004 QuoteHopefully, there was adequate command & control by the leaders. I think the answer to your question is clearly obvious in the last half of the clip....after the militia man had been shot in the back and killed. Officer in Charge....'Ceasefire???' anyone? anyone? anyone? errr....nope Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #266 June 5, 2004 QuoteQuoteHopefully, there was adequate command & control by the leaders. I think the answer to your question is clearly obvious in the last half of the clip....after the militia man had been shot in the back and killed. Officer in Charge....'Ceasfire???' anyone? anyone? anyone? errr....nope From the video, it didn't appear so. I'll give you that. However, like I said, there's no way to really be sure. The video could definitely be used as circumstancial evidence against the soldier/soldier's involved should charges be filed. I don't think you could base your whole case on it, though. There are many scenarios where a wounded guy on his stomach could be very dangerous. Things are rarely exactly as they seem. Gotta go. Be back later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #267 June 5, 2004 I'm not referring to the 'other' video at all, I'm referring to the apache footage originally under discussion, of course since being shown that you have no clue what really happened in that instance all you can do is say 'oh yea but what about this???" your statements thus far have shown you to be largely ignorant of the actions that win wars. Interdiction of supply lines has been fundamental to wining conflicts for centuries, you cant fight (well you can but you wont win) without weapons and ammo... old fashioned? read Sun Tzu..come back later... war isnt about honor. if you want 'honorable' combat, fight a duel instead...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites crozby 0 #268 June 6, 2004 war isnt about honor. if you want 'honorable' combat, fight a duel instead... No everyone thinks like that, thank God. Here is the speech given to the British troops on the eve of battle by Col. Tim Collins. If this doesn't prescribe honorable behaviour I don't know what does: Quote"We go to liberate not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them. "There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly. Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send. As for the others I expect you to rock their world. Wipe them out if that is what they choose. But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory. "Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. Tread lightly there. You will see things that no man could pay to see and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing. Don't treat them as refugees for they are in their own country. Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you. "If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly and mark their graves. "It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive but there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no time for sorrow. "The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction. There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam. He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity. "It is a big step to take another human life. It is not to be done lightly. I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts, I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them. If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family. "The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please. "If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest for your deeds will follow you down through history. We will bring shame on neither our uniform or our nation. "[Regarding the use by Saddam of chemical or biological weapons] It is not a question of if, it's a question of when. We know he has already devolved the decision to lower commanders, and that means he has already taken the decision himself. If we survive the first strike we will survive the attack. "As for ourselves, let's bring everyone home and leave Iraq a better place for us having been there. "Our business now is north." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #269 June 6, 2004 there is nothing honorable about killing your opponent with a rifle from 500 yards before he even knows your there, there is nothing honorable about artillery rounds from 20 miles out landing on your position when you can do nothing to those guns attacking you, there is nothing honorable about bombs falling from the sky from 30,000 feet killing infantry as they fire pointlessly in the air with their small arms.. nothing. but all those things do win conflicts. War isnt about honor, it is about killing your enemy before he has a chance to kill you, cutting off his supply lines and destroying his motivation to fight. It was never really about honor, and what little there was disappeared with the invention of gunpowder. if you want "honor" in combat put yourself in the same level of risk as those you are in conflict with, where what prevails is not technology, not an industrial economic machine, not strength of numbers or culture, but your own personal abilities weighed against those you call foe.... that is 'honor'. It is also a stupid way to fight a war as its very possible you could lose.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tunaplanet 0 #270 June 7, 2004 Quotethere is nothing honorable about killing your opponent with a rifle from 500 yards before he even knows your there, there is nothing honorable about artillery rounds from 20 miles out landing on your position when you can do nothing to those guns attacking you, there is nothing honorable about bombs falling from the sky from 30,000 feet killing infantry as they fire pointlessly in the air with their small arms.. Wow, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #271 June 7, 2004 Word. But I don't think he's trying. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pajarito 0 #272 June 7, 2004 What's considered honorable in the methods of warfare has changed considerably over time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #273 June 7, 2004 really? explain then, what is honorable about killing? it what way is it honorable to take anothers life with no risk to your own?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhillyKev 0 #274 June 11, 2004 Wondering if this is about the second video posted? QuoteLast week, the army said it had opened a criminal investigation into a U.S. soldier who fatally shot at close range an Iraqi man who already was grievously wounded in a vehicle after a high-speed chase near the city of Kufa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 6 7 8 9 10 11 Next Page 11 of 11 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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tunaplanet 0 #258 June 4, 2004 Quotewant our troops to fail since we don't like the president's policies. Even though you make this statement as sarcasm, it's in all actuality the most truthful one you've made. Keep up the good job. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vmsfreaky1 0 #259 June 5, 2004 Quote..less dead Iraqis per annum is a good thing isn't it? That is simply not the case. The UN embargo of Iraq killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis, this is a fact. The U.S invasion of Iraq is just adding to the overall toll, the U.S will be judged very harshly by future generations for its own genocide. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #260 June 5, 2004 Good for you.... By the way...do you belong to the same movie club as Ron...? I'll sum it up.....too much aggression ...too soon....can help solve problems....but usually just creates them Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #261 June 5, 2004 QuoteGood for you.... By the way...do you belong to the same movie club as Ron...? I'll sum it up.....too much aggression ...too soon....can help solve problems....but usually just creates them Probably. I have a long list of war movie favorites. That's not the basis for my opinions, however. "My" summary is that, if it has come to the last resort of war, you should hit fast, hard, and decisive. It's just the way I was taught and it seems to be working for us so far. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #262 June 5, 2004 QuoteZoter would rather lose a conflict than kill a few enemy arms suppliers..... Thats the most pathetic 'get out' of a discussion Ive seen yet on this forum...lol Far from it......as Ive hinted at many time already in this thread.....I dont have a problem at all with serving your country and doing what has to be done. Call me old fashioned...to me theres just a certain amount of honour of not murdering an enemy....just because I can .....as opposed to acting like a professional soldier and taking an alternate plan of action..if it is at all available I hope the Marines who shot that poor chap in the back..and then cheered and congratulated themselves about it, sleep well at night....when they return home after 'protecting' America.......I'll say from previous experience...they probably wont Awful lot diffrent from taking down somebody whos charging at you firing a weapon......very different Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #263 June 5, 2004 Last resorts? Injured enemy (single) trying to crawl away as hes injured.....no weapon in his hands....back towards you > 20 M away whilst your staring at him behind a wall from the barrel of an automatic rifle ....and with your 'buddies' doing the same... Last resort? lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #264 June 5, 2004 QuoteLast resorts? Injured enemy (single) trying to crawl away as hes injured.....no weapon in his hands....back towards you > 20 M away whilst your staring at him behind a wall from the barrel of an automatic rifle ....and with your 'buddies' doing the same... Last resort? lol Sorry. I was actually referring more to the helicopter footage. I said earlier that the ground Marine video definitely looks questionable. I also said, however, that it could be very deceiving. No one can really tell exactly what the circumstances were except for the people on the ground. Hopefully, there was adequate command & control by the leaders. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #265 June 5, 2004 QuoteHopefully, there was adequate command & control by the leaders. I think the answer to your question is clearly obvious in the last half of the clip....after the militia man had been shot in the back and killed. Officer in Charge....'Ceasefire???' anyone? anyone? anyone? errr....nope Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #266 June 5, 2004 QuoteQuoteHopefully, there was adequate command & control by the leaders. I think the answer to your question is clearly obvious in the last half of the clip....after the militia man had been shot in the back and killed. Officer in Charge....'Ceasfire???' anyone? anyone? anyone? errr....nope From the video, it didn't appear so. I'll give you that. However, like I said, there's no way to really be sure. The video could definitely be used as circumstancial evidence against the soldier/soldier's involved should charges be filed. I don't think you could base your whole case on it, though. There are many scenarios where a wounded guy on his stomach could be very dangerous. Things are rarely exactly as they seem. Gotta go. Be back later. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #267 June 5, 2004 I'm not referring to the 'other' video at all, I'm referring to the apache footage originally under discussion, of course since being shown that you have no clue what really happened in that instance all you can do is say 'oh yea but what about this???" your statements thus far have shown you to be largely ignorant of the actions that win wars. Interdiction of supply lines has been fundamental to wining conflicts for centuries, you cant fight (well you can but you wont win) without weapons and ammo... old fashioned? read Sun Tzu..come back later... war isnt about honor. if you want 'honorable' combat, fight a duel instead...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #268 June 6, 2004 war isnt about honor. if you want 'honorable' combat, fight a duel instead... No everyone thinks like that, thank God. Here is the speech given to the British troops on the eve of battle by Col. Tim Collins. If this doesn't prescribe honorable behaviour I don't know what does: Quote"We go to liberate not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people and the only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them. "There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly. Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send. As for the others I expect you to rock their world. Wipe them out if that is what they choose. But if you are ferocious in battle remember to be magnanimous in victory. "Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. Tread lightly there. You will see things that no man could pay to see and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their hospitality even though they have nothing. Don't treat them as refugees for they are in their own country. Their children will be poor, in years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you. "If there are casualties of war then remember that when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly and mark their graves. "It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive but there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no time for sorrow. "The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction. There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam. He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity. "It is a big step to take another human life. It is not to be done lightly. I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts, I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them. If someone surrenders to you then remember they have that right in international law and ensure that one day they go home to their family. "The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please. "If you harm the regiment or its history by over-enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest for your deeds will follow you down through history. We will bring shame on neither our uniform or our nation. "[Regarding the use by Saddam of chemical or biological weapons] It is not a question of if, it's a question of when. We know he has already devolved the decision to lower commanders, and that means he has already taken the decision himself. If we survive the first strike we will survive the attack. "As for ourselves, let's bring everyone home and leave Iraq a better place for us having been there. "Our business now is north." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #269 June 6, 2004 there is nothing honorable about killing your opponent with a rifle from 500 yards before he even knows your there, there is nothing honorable about artillery rounds from 20 miles out landing on your position when you can do nothing to those guns attacking you, there is nothing honorable about bombs falling from the sky from 30,000 feet killing infantry as they fire pointlessly in the air with their small arms.. nothing. but all those things do win conflicts. War isnt about honor, it is about killing your enemy before he has a chance to kill you, cutting off his supply lines and destroying his motivation to fight. It was never really about honor, and what little there was disappeared with the invention of gunpowder. if you want "honor" in combat put yourself in the same level of risk as those you are in conflict with, where what prevails is not technology, not an industrial economic machine, not strength of numbers or culture, but your own personal abilities weighed against those you call foe.... that is 'honor'. It is also a stupid way to fight a war as its very possible you could lose.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #270 June 7, 2004 Quotethere is nothing honorable about killing your opponent with a rifle from 500 yards before he even knows your there, there is nothing honorable about artillery rounds from 20 miles out landing on your position when you can do nothing to those guns attacking you, there is nothing honorable about bombs falling from the sky from 30,000 feet killing infantry as they fire pointlessly in the air with their small arms.. Wow, you couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #271 June 7, 2004 Word. But I don't think he's trying. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #272 June 7, 2004 What's considered honorable in the methods of warfare has changed considerably over time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #273 June 7, 2004 really? explain then, what is honorable about killing? it what way is it honorable to take anothers life with no risk to your own?____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #274 June 11, 2004 Wondering if this is about the second video posted? QuoteLast week, the army said it had opened a criminal investigation into a U.S. soldier who fatally shot at close range an Iraqi man who already was grievously wounded in a vehicle after a high-speed chase near the city of Kufa. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
