The Pledge of Allegiance stands!

[pajarito 0]

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"Hi- I'm a Runaway Thread. Please lock me!!"

AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...
I can't stop..........kill me........please............

Must stop...............must....... stop...............

[PhillyKev 0]

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I can't stop..........kill me........please............

Careful, god might here you

[pajarito 0]

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I can't stop..........kill me........please............

Careful, god might here you

I don't care......end it......now........
"Oh...the horror......."

[Zenister 0]

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I don’t believe the evidence shows that.

the difference between you and i (and most believers in any religion) is that I've looked at the evidence before i made my decision.

believers make their decisions and then look for evidence.

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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"Hi- I'm a Runaway Thread. Please lock me!!"

but some how you cant stop clicking...sort of like train wrecks, cant look away...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

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the difference between you and i (and most believers in any religion) is that I've looked at the evidence before i made my decision.

believers make their decisions and then look for evidence.

Not true at all. I don't know where you arrive at that conclusion about me. If you've read any of my posts, you'd realize that evidence is very important to me. I did not make my decision until several years of looking hard at the evidence. I wasn't brought up in any faith and didn't make a decision until 1998 and I'm 35. Don't confuse me with someone with "blind faith."

[pajarito 0]

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believers make their decisions and then look for evidence.

I've been accused of making blanket statments and generalizations before but I think you're worse than I am.

[Zenister 0]

so, you've gone thru the books of the old and new testament applying psychological analytical methods to the characters, events and plots (and writers as they are often writing about themselves and events they claim to have participated in) and compared them to established patterns of behavior, phrases of speech and action to illustrate where (as present in the text as given) they exhibit behavior and attitudes that would be classified as neurotic, psychotic perhaps even pathological by modern mental behavioral science?

have you really ever read the bible critically? most people have not, most people misunderstand criticism as an analytical tool to begin with, it has nothing to do with Siskel and Ebert if you havent, you havent looked at the 'evidence' at all.

I will never say the voice of God is not present in your texts (as it is in many others as well) but there is a good bit of chatter from Man to leave off with..

would you like a list of the human emotional and failings exhibited by your "God" as written in your literature? (more in the OT than the NT is better edited more unified creation)

we could start with Anger and Jealousy...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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if is a qualifier. read for content, not for offense.

I think it would be easier just to be clear and attack the idea and not the person. That's just me.

it is easiest if everyone reads completely and recgonizes subordinate clauses and how they apply to the object under discusion, before they scream about personal attacks.

"if" & "then"

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

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so, you've gone thru the books of the old and new testament applying psychological analytical methods to the characters, events and plots (and writers as they are often writing about themselves and events they claim to have participated in) and compared them to established patterns of behavior, phrases of speech and action to illustrate where (as present in the text as given) they exhibit behavior and attitudes that would be classified as neurotic, psychotic perhaps even pathological by modern mental behavioral science?

Have you? You said earlier:

“The last actual paper I did on a biblical source was Daniel, quite a while ago, but I’ll see if I can find it for you if your really interested. Might have to mail it to you though i dont think i have it softcopy anywhere...”

It does sound like you’ve taken a class on the subject, though. I have not read through the entire Bible. Most of the New Testament. I’ve only read a few of the Old Testament books. I’m working on Kings now. Like I said before, I’m not a Theologian nor am I personally a textual critic. I’m also not a Psychologist. I’ve only read the works of others who are experts in the field. I usually quote from other’s research which is compelling to me. I don’t claim that it is my own. I don’t have to have done the research myself.

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have you really ever read the bible critically? most people have not, most people misunderstand criticism as an analytical tool to begin with, it has nothing to do with Siskel and Ebert if you havent, you havent looked at the 'evidence' at all.

Again, not the entire Bible. Have you read the entire Bible and critiqued each book? You’re assuming that I rely on movies and that is also inaccurate.

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I will never say the voice of God is not present in your texts (as it is in many others as well) but there is a good bit of chatter from Man to leave off with..

If the God of my Bible is correct, then all others cannot be and, therefore, he cannot be accurately represented in their religious texts.

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would you like a list of the human emotional and failings exhibited by your "God" as written in your literature? (more in the OT than the NT is better edited more unified creation)

we could start with Anger and Jealousy... [/reply

Only if you consider those to be emotional failings on the part of God in those instances. I don’t. I believe it demonstrates his personal involvement and immeasurable love for us all.

I’m going out to eat. Later.

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[Zenister 0]

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Again, not the entire Bible. Have you read the entire Bible and critiqued each book? You’re assuming that I rely on movies and that is also inaccurate.

yes. Many times for a variety of reasons, beginning with my grandmother asked me to when i started reading. I own several, as well as a number of other religious texts, both Christian and not.

I am making no such assumption. I am pointing out that 'criticism' (literary, an analysis tool) is a different thing than a 'critic'.

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I will never say the voice of God is not present in your texts (as it is in many others as well) but there is a good bit of chatter from Man to leave off with..

If the God of my Bible is correct, then all others cannot be and, therefore, he cannot be accurately represented in their religious texts.

[mardigrasbob 0]

In the immortal words of th Rev. Jerry Falwell
"The Arabs and the Israelis need to solve their problems in a fine Christian manner."



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[leroydb 0]

just move the thread... some are tired of you...

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[tunaplanet 0]

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The Supreme Court at least temporarily preserved the phrase "one nation, under God," in the Pledge of Allegiance, ruling Monday that a California atheist could not challenge the patriotic oath while stepping the broader question of separation of church and state.

And thank God for that. Tired of these sue-happy losers looking to cash in for a free ride for life.

I have an idea for these morons who want to sue everyone and their brother for minute happenings in life. If you lose your lawsuit you owe the amount you're suing for. Maybe that will decrease lawsuits by the idiots who spill hot coffee on themselves.

Forty-two

[captain1 0]

Hell of a lot of posts you have received on this thread NightJumper. Say Hello to Winnie for me.

[Kris 0]

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And thank God for that. Tired of these sue-happy losers looking to cash in for a free ride for life.

I have an idea for these morons who want to sue everyone and their brother for minute happenings in life. If you lose your lawsuit you owe the amount you're suing for. Maybe that will decrease lawsuits by the idiots who spill hot coffee on themselves.

Money wasn't involved in this case, Tuna. You may want to re-read about it.

Also, if you want an example of a frivolous lawsuit, the elderly woman and the hot McDonald's coffee isn't one of them. Read the background on that case, too.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[tunaplanet 0]

Interesting opinions. A little off the mark, but interesting none the least.

You have no clue that the lawsuit would not have ended up being about money. It most likely would have.

And yes, the Mc D's woman was a moron beyond normal standards.

But like the old saying goes. Opinions are like.....

Forty-two

[pajarito 0]

I’m trying to summarize here from your posts:

You were alluding that the Biblical text is inaccurate due to its writers displaying characteristics of insanity in an attempt to discredit Christianity. You said that you’d read the Bible, in its entirety and evaluated the mental states of the writers by applying psychological analytical methods. You apply this to the characters, events and plots comparing them to established patterns of behavior, phrases of speech, and actions to illustrate where they exhibit behavior and attitudes that would be classified as neurotic, psychotic, and perhaps even pathological by modern mental behavioral science. You said that these patterns of abnormality can be shown which we would now classify as psychotic tendencies. You said that you learned how to do all of this in college while “dabbling” in courses in addition to the ones required for your major. You also said that the last study you did on a Biblical source was Daniel but that was a long time ago.

It would be interesting to see some summary of your work. I’m not requesting that you mail a copy to me of your study. I’d just like to see some specifics. I do have some questions up front, however.

- If you read the Bible at your Grandmother’s request when you were younger, did you also read it critically in its entirety by the terms you mentioned?

- How do you accurately compare what is normal today with what was normal from ~500B.C. (in reference to Daniel) and, based on that, declare that someone from that time displayed the abnormal tendencies that you mentioned?

By the way, I have read Daniel but, as with your studies, it was many years ago.

[Nightingale 0]

which books do the catholics include that are not included by other christians? last I checked, the bibles in the pews at my parents' church were KJV.

[mr2mk1g 10]

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And yes, the Mc D's woman was a moron beyond normal standards.

This comment is so common it's almost a trol... but I have to bite. Just go read this page: http://www.atlanet.org/ConsumerMediaResources/Tier3/press_room/FACTS/frivolous/McdonaldsCoffeecase.aspx

[pajarito 0]

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which books do the catholics include that are not included by other christians? last I checked, the bibles in the pews at my parents' church were KJV.

I knew there were more because my Father-in-law, who was Catholic before he died, told me. I didn't know from memory which ones exactly so I can't verify this list for accuracy. However, I found it on a website. Catholics...correct me if I'm wrong.

7 books found in the Catholic Old Testament that are not part of the Protestant Old Testament.

- TOBIT
- JUDITH
- 1ST BOOK OF MACCABEES
- 2ND BOOK OF MACCABEES
- THE BOOK OF WISDOM
- ECCLESIASTICUS
- THE BOOK OF BARUCH
- Additional parts of THE BOOK OF DANIEL
- Additional parts of the BOOK OF ESTHER

[Zenister 0]

no. I'm not attempting to 'discredit' anything. I am pointing out flaws of character and plot in what you hold as “the one true word”. ‘Credit’ you give personally, its a lot like faith, no amount of evidence will shake that which you really believe, or give credit (or take it away) from the source of that belief.

Your biblical text is inaccurate. It contains fundamental flaws about the nature of the earth, its physical laws and the universe beyond, stemming primarily from the primitive culture that created it and its limited knowledge base. Man lacks understanding, as he explores the world around he creates stories to explain what he does not understand. As we have advanced we cease to create such fictions, or rather recognize them for the stories they are and accept their wisdom from the human source without claiming ‘higher authority’)

Science has replaced Religion as the means of examining the real world, as it does not support an agenda apart from the acquisition of knowledge, and bases its conclusions on its repeatable, demonstrable results, and not on myths and tales of yore, or what fits best for the church/political leaders in charge. If you believe God directly communicated to your writers the words and concepts they used, then your God also has a flawed understanding of the universe, which sort of puts a crimp in the old "omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent' thing, and makes your book somewhat less than the “sole source of Truth”. This does not imply there is no wisdom to be found there, but there is a great deal of fallacy as well….

"Sane" is social standard. What is considered "sane" may or may not agree with the definition applied by a previous age or culture. As such it can only be applied from the current perspective. Prophets were rather common occurrences then, what do you think ‘we’ would say about someone who claimed the same level of direct communication with God now, as Moses is written to have had then? [I]Wonder why your God ‘shut up’ anyway? Oh yeah..the NT writers didn’t want anyone jumping in on their new parade so…they wrote them out, by claiming sole providence[/I]

Do you think a modern psychological evaluation would find him sane? Perhaps you should (try to take your belief out of it, an important part of critical reading/thinking skills is objectivity. Scientific methods remember?) conduct a survey of your own and see how you would classify a human that exhibited all the changing attitudes and actions of your God?? It’s a good excuse to read the Bible again anyway, and then you can claim to have really examined the evidence for this particular discussion.

Its very easy (even from a superficial reading if you dont have the time for deep study) to find many instances of behavior from characters (including the multiple characters of God who is in no way a consistent character by any literary definition, and yet is accepted as one by your religion) in your bible, that would be classified as psychotic (talks to and receives answers from burning trees?, Kills every man woman and child occupying a foreign land with the jaw bone of an ass? Becomes angry to the point of "world wide destruction" ie Floods because others do not follow your wishes? Destruction and dispersion of mankind because they built a tower?) Do you think the actions of your God, when placed on 'trial' would show him to be any saner than Moses? I use these examples because most everyone, even those who have not done an in-depth study will be familiar with these tales..

I read the bible at my grandmothers request, because she gave me one (she's very much a believer of your faith) when she noticed i was reading all the time, but I didn’t really start reading critically until much later. I had read the bible (and lots of other texts, religious and otherwise as i have been a voracious reader since i learned how) cover to cover before age 12. I had/have always questioned a number of the assumptions and teachings as given by sunday school teachers (and later ministers and pastors, when my questions went beyond what sunday school teachers had any answers for at all) as I felt fundamental flaws with the dogma they were teaching from day 1. I have never been separated from God and never will be. Nor am I responsible in any way for the hypothetical "sins" of fictional ancestors, and Christian literary assertions aside you cannot prove otherwise. I cannot "take on faith" that which contradicts things i have known since i first drew breathe.

Of course that level of discussion is unwelcome in sunday school where Christians are busily indoctrinating their young with 'correct thought'

i learned critical thinking and analysis skills not from 'dabbling' (although perhaps the few courses strickly in behavioral science might qualify as 'dabbling') but from over 100 semester hours of undergraduate and nearly 60 hours of post graduate work in Literature, with a focus in theory and criticism. (I also have enough hours to nearly qualify for Philosophy & History majors ( i do have minors in both attached to my degrees). I dont expect you to recognize the wide variety of fields you must have a passable understanding of to utilize their methods as criticism.

The last actual paper i did on a Biblical subject was Daniel, as it fit in well with some other themes of history and 'prophecy i was studying at the time. But psychological analysis of literature is a common critical technique and i have used it throughout my studies, both formal and independent, religious and secular.

Some people go to College to get degrees/jobs. I go to learn as much as I can, and so the educational process only starts when they hand you the lambskin. I’ve probably read more on the subject (comparative religions and literary criticisms of their texts) outside of formal courses than most have while attending.

If you are really interested you can start by familiarizing yourself with the modern definitions and behavioral patterns of psychotic, neurotic and pathological. Then keep them in mind as your (re)reading your books... you dont have to go to the process of building profiles for each, just look to see where some of your characters actions fit the bill.

It's amazing the differences in reading you can find when you force yourself to think from another perspective.

Keep in mind these behavioral patterns still apply, even if the characters believe themselves to be acting on direct information from God. Of course if you read the text from the viewpoint of a believer then all their actions are somehow justifiable. “it is God’s will” the excuse used by Christian persecutors everywhere….

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

and what basis does your church use to decide where God's word "is and is not"?

why do they have better understanding than the Catholics?

possible that all Christian's are missing some of God's word as well? Is it possible all Christian's are reading books that are not God's word?

why? why not?

who is the church to tell you where God's word is to be found, or not found?

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[pajarito 0]

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Your biblical text is inaccurate. It contains fundamental flaws about the nature of the earth, its physical laws and the universe beyond, stemming primarily from the primitive culture that created it and its limited knowledge base. Man lacks understanding, as he explores the world around he creates stories to explain what he does not understand. As we have advanced we cease to create such fictions, or rather recognize them for the stories they are and accept their wisdom from the human source without claiming ‘higher authority’)

The Bible wasn’t meant to be a science book. The scientific topics that it mentions are presented in a rather rudimentary way due to, as you stated, the limited understanding of the peoples of the time. However, that doesn’t mean that it’s inaccurate or has no purpose today just because it explains something in a very basic way. That just wasn’t its purpose.

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Science has replaced Religion as the means of examining the real world, as it does not support an agenda apart from the acquisition of knowledge, and bases its conclusions on its repeatable, demonstrable results, and not on myths and tales of yore, or what fits best for the church/political leaders in charge.

Science hasn’t replaced religion. It has enhanced it. The contents of the Bible aren’t proved using The Scientific Method. Everything that is true isn’t proved through repeatable demonstrated results. I still haven’t noticed a “flawed understanding of the universe” as long as you keep the stories of the Bible in context.

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Prophets were rather common occurrences then, what do you think ‘we’ would say about someone who claimed the same level of direct communication with God now, as Moses is written to have had then?

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God gave us a standard by which to examine the sincerity of others in this area.

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Mathew 7:15-16

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Do you think a modern psychological evaluation would find him sane? Perhaps you should (try to take your belief out of it, an important part of critical reading/thinking skills is objectivity. Scientific methods remember?) conduct a survey of your own and see how you would classify a human that exhibited all the changing attitudes and actions of your God?? It’s a good excuse to read the Bible again anyway, and then you can claim to have really examined the evidence for this particular discussion.

God isn’t measured by our standards. If you think he should be, then you elevate yourself to his level which is the height of arrogance.

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Its very easy (even from a superficial reading if you dont have the time for deep study) to find many instances of behavior from characters (including the multiple characters of God who is in no way a consistent character by any literary definition, and yet is accepted as one by your religion) in your bible, that would be classified as psychotic.

Again, it’s not for us to judge God. He isn’t subject to our standards.

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(talks to and receives answers from burning trees?,

Moses talked to and received answers from “The Burning Bush” which God used to demonstrate himself. Not visa versa.

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Kills every man woman and child occupying a foreign land with the jaw bone of an ass?

If you’re referring to Samson in the Book of Judges, he used the jawbone of a donkey as a weapon in order to take revenge on the Philistines for burning his wife and father to death. That wasn’t God either.

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Becomes angry to the point of "world wide destruction" ie Floods because others do not follow your wishes?

Would you expect that there be no justice in the world? No rules? No consequences for actions? That’s unreasonable and unrealistic.

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Destruction and dispersion of mankind because they built a tower?) Do you think the actions of your God, when placed on 'trial' would show him to be any saner than Moses? I use these examples because most everyone, even those who have not done an in-depth study will be familiar with these tales..

Man attempted to put himself on the same level as God as you are apparently trying to do as well. However, you feel about it, that is not allowed and you will pay the consequences eventually.

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I have never been separated from God and never will be.

I cannot "take on faith" that which contradicts things i have known since i first drew breathe.

How do you know? Can you prove it?

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Of course that level of discussion is unwelcome in sunday school where Christians are busily indoctrinating their young with 'correct thought'

That’s not the case at my church at all. I’m sorry for any bad experience you might have had in the past. The Bible study class that I attend isn’t comprised entirely of Christians. We’re currently going through a book by C.S Lewis called “Mere Christianity.” No Bible scripture is quoted anywhere in the book. Logic is applied to the principals of Christianity, though. C.S. Lewis is also very much a critical thinker. I believe, for your religion to be worth anything, you must be able to break it down and put it back together again. I’m not afraid of discussing other points of view nor have I been indoctrinated by anyone.

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i learned critical thinking and analysis skills not from 'dabbling' (although perhaps the few courses strickly in behavioral science might qualify as 'dabbling') but from over 100 semester hours of undergraduate and nearly 60 hours of post graduate work in Literature, with a focus in theory and criticism. (I also have enough hours to nearly qualify for Philosophy & History majors ( i do have minors in both attached to my degrees). I dont expect you to recognize the wide variety of fields you must have a passable understanding of to utilize their methods as criticism.

The last actual paper i did on a Biblical subject was Daniel, as it fit in well with some other themes of history and 'prophecy i was studying at the time. But psychological analysis of literature is a common critical technique and i have used it throughout my studies, both formal and independent, religious and secular.

Some people go to College to get degrees/jobs. I go to learn as much as I can, and so the educational process only starts when they hand you the lambskin. I’ve probably read more on the subject (comparative religions and literary criticisms of their texts) outside of formal courses than most have while attending.

I believe you’ve acquired a great bit of knowledge on the subject. I think there’s a difference, however, between knowledge and wisdom. Knowing all the facts but refusing to see the truth.

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[Nightingale 0]

if, as you say, the Bible was never meant to be a science book, why do people keep trying to put it in science classes???