Paul M. Johnson

[mardigrasbob 0]

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The U.N. borders selected for Israel were not defendable. The borders Israel has chosen for its settlements following the six-days war are not defendable without huge annual subsidies from the U.S. taxpayers. This is what I have a problem with...namely the financial aid that appears must continue in perpetuity for Israel to survive. The lion's share of U.S. financial aid in the world is swallowed up between Egypt and Israel, and little progress has been. It is tough to find any products from the middle east on store shelves, a clear sign that subsides will have to continue far into the foreseeable future. Clearly, limits need to be established.

You are clearly blind to the facts!

From the moment the Jewish People re-established sovereignty in their ancient homeland, they sought genuine peace with all of their neighbors. Unfortunately, their neighbors did not wish to share a peaceful existence with them. They, like Bin Ladin today, felt that they had a religious obligation to destroy the non-Arab/Muslim Jewish State (and, for that matter, ALL non-Arab/Moslem governments in the world). The Arab campaign against Israel is rooted not in any negotiable grievances but in a basic opposition to the very existence of Jewish sovereignty in what they perceive as THEIR Middle East! The ultimate intent of the Arabs is to separate out a Jewish history from "Palestine"... and then to separate Israel from the face of the Earth.

When the Palestine Liberation Organization's (PLO) was formed in 1964, its primary goal was to destroy Israel. After the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, their goal became two-tracked: Either (1) destroy Israel outright (the same pre-1967 goal) or (2) the creation of an Arab-Palestinian state to be used as a launching pad from which to destroy Israel. Different strategies - same ultimate goal... a state not along side Israel, but IN PLACE OF Israel. It's really that simple!
Just before 2 p.m. on Saurday, Oct. 6, 1967 222 warplanes took off from seven Egyptian airfields and flew low on bombing missions against Israeli military targets in the Sinai.
In the meantime , 60 warplanes took off from several air bases in Syria to bomb Israeli targets on the Golan Heights and guns opened a fierce and intense barrage.

After ONLY six days of air, sea and hand-to-hand ground warfare, Israel defeated all three Arab armies along three separate fronts, taking control of the entire Sinai Desert from Egypt, the 37mile x 12mile Golan Heights from Syria and the West Bank (including East Jerusalem and its Old City) from Jordan. The God of Israel was surely watching over His children! Most importantly was the return to Israel of its holy 3,000 year old capitol city of Jerusalem along the western edge of the West Bank... the same Jerusalem from which all Jews had been denied access for the 19 years (1948-1967) following Jordan's seizure and control over it following the first Arab-Israeli War of 1948-9.

Israel was responsible for bringing about some of its own problems. The Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza Strip were packed and ready to leave following their 1967 defeat. Suddenly the victorious one-eyed IDF General Moshe Dayan persuaded them to stay. This singular act stunned no one more than the Arab enemy himself who could not believe such an incredible manifestation of Jewish madness! After all, the Arabs knew what THEY would have done to the Jews if they had won! Dayan's plan was to educate them, offer them modern medical treatment, provide them with employment both in the West Bank, Gaza AND inside Israel Proper itself ... living amongst each other in hopes of building bridges to the Arab world. Israel is now paying dearly for this typically naive "Leftist" gesture. That "bridge" led to two Intifadas and world-wide Arab-Palestinian terrorism. From a frightened and defeated enemy, these "Palestinian" Arabs under Israel's jurisdiction turned into a confident, hateful and dangerous enemy now on their way toward forming a terrorist state determined to destroy Israel!

Usually when one side starts a war and loses both the war AND some territory, no one on the planet would expect the winner to give back anything! This not only sounds preposterous, it IS preposterous! But the Jews (I hate to admit) had such an insane obsession of wanting the world to love them that they were willing to give back the entire Sinai Desert (oil fields, air bases and endless miles of security buffer) to Egypt for a piece of paper. Thus, in 1982 Egypt regained their Sinai and Israel lost a massive buffer against any future Egyptian aggression! Thus far, Egypt has not aggressed against Israel militarily; however, the basest, anti-Semitic vile to come out of Egypt is not unlike the worse of Nazi anti-Jewish propaganda! This 1982 Camp David Peace Accord has to be the coldest peace deal in history!
Israel still occupies Syria's Golan Heights which, prior to the 1967 war, had been by Syria used solely for terrorist incursions into and artillery bombardment upon Israel's northeastern settlements. The Golan should never be given back to Israel's most vicious enemy! And of course, Israel still "occupies" the West Bank with it's ONE MILLION TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND and Gaza with its EIGHT HUNDRED THOUSAND "Palestinian" Arabs. Had Israel done to these Arabs what the Arabs would have done to the Jews had THEY won, she would have expelled these hostile Arabs and made it officially part of a Greater Israel! But by remaining an "occupier," Israel set herself up for a campaign of vicious propaganda, the scope and intensity of which the world has never before seen!


The Middle East war is not now and never was a conflict between Israelis/Jews on the one hand and Palestinians on the other. In fact, the Arab-"Palestinians", while currently the perpetrators of most of the anti-Jewish atrocities, were never a very important part of the conflict. In fact, before about 1970, virtually no one in the world considered the Middle East conflict to be one between Israelis and Palestinians.
The term "Palestinian" itself had referred to Israeli Jews back in the 1940s, and had been slowly deconstructed and redefined to refer to the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza. The Middle East Conflict was always a war by Arabs against Jews, not a conflict between Israelis and "Palestinians." The war was repackaged as a conflict between Jews and Palestinians as a public relations gimmick by the Arab fascist regimes. These regimes had never had any interest in "Palestinians," in creating a "Palestinian" state, or in "Palestinian nationalism" before 1967. That is because Palestinian nationalism did not and DOES NOT exist. The Palestinians were a regional group of Arabs having virtually no cultural nor national distinctive traits separating them from Syrians, Lebanese, and Jordanians. They are all basically Arabs!.

The bulk of what are called "Palestinian Arabs" are members of families who migrated into the Land of Israel beginning in the late 19th century. Palestinian nationalism is a mislabeling of Arab nationalism. Arab nationalism exists, although it is closely bound up with Islamic nationalism and even Islamism. Palestinian nationalism, however, is a phantom. It is nothing more than genocidal hatred of Jews!

The Arab assaults and aggressions against Israel in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1968, and 1973 had nothing to do with Palestinians. The Palestinian terror campaign would itself be easy to suppress today and eradicate if the Middle East conflict were really a Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Israel would simply obliterate the terrorists and expel their supporters to Syria and Lebanon. The Middle East war continues because it is really an Arab-Israeli war, not an Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It is also in large part a war between barbarism and civilization. In many ways an Islamic religious jihad against the Jews.


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[falxori 0]

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It is tough to find any products from the middle east on store shelves

most chances are that many of the things around you (including your PC, cell phone, and some things used by your army to protect you) has something that was developed in israel.

true, we dont have a lot of natural resources and there for almost no "heavy industry" but i honestly think we do a pretty good job with the hand we were dealt..

anyway, US financial aid is serving US interests in the region too.
i'd like it a lot better if we didnt need it.

O

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[rmsmith 1]

Thanks for the history lesson, mardigrasbob.

However I still don't see where the U.S. has a financial obligation in a region where 50-years of previous aid has made little progress toward independence. It's clear that there is no such thing a casual discussion of middle east aid since we are dealing with raw nerves, and the money isn't a gratuity...it's mother's milk; note the tone of the responses. Eventually, as more U.S. baby-boomers move into their years of health problems, the U.S. government will be reviewing every negative cash flow; it may come down to who really should receive U.S. taxpayer revenue. While it appears an easy choice, it probably will be a nasty pork-barrel style fight.

[mardigrasbob 0]

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630

Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Cost per Israeli
$23,240


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[Muenkel 0]

Let's get back to the topic at hand. Paul M. Johnson, an innocent human being was brutally murdered at the hands of selfish extremists or fanatics....whatever you want to call them. These extremists would not hesitate to do the exact same thing to any one of us or our loved ones. The buck stops with them.

I do not believe that every muslim in the world condones this behavior. The blood is on the hands of those who carried out this heinous crime, ordered it and celebrated it.

Can anyone here comprehend what Mr. Johnson or his loved ones went through in the last week of his life?

If anyone wants to point fingers, it must be at these barbarians who must be stopped. I don't care your political beliefs, we must elect a president who will go after these savages with all the might of the United States. The next beheading could be one of your's or my beloved ones.

Blue skies Mr. Johnson.

Chris

[rickjump1 0]

With the exodus of foreign workers, the oil will stop. They must get religious leaders involved at every level or its over.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Kennedy 0]

Religious leaders are involved at every level. They're just involved with the wrong side.

It doesn't much matter what the mosque down the block is preaching when the ones in Saudi Arabia are contemplating the overthrow of the house of Saud.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[rickjump1 0]

It's just a matter of time if that's so. Get ready to sell your SUVs. SA and Iran; what a power combo.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[Kennedy 0]

Someone posted this in the civilian airliner thread -
http://foi.missouri.edu/evolvingissues/fallhouseofsaud.html

take it for what it's worth and decide for yourself.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Someone posted this in the civilian airliner thread -
http://foi.missouri.edu/evolvingissues/fallhouseofsaud.html

take it for what it's worth and decide for yourself.

No I posted it in the Saudi Arabia thread. I would hope all would read it and begin to think past our current involvement in Iraq. Better start sking yourself what the world is going to be like for you in 5 to 10 years, what you are willing to support and what the consequences of that will be.

[Botellines 0]

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Where are all of our peace-loving friends on here now?
This makes me sick!! If people don't believe we are at war for our survival, I don't know how else to explain it to them.
They ( muslim extremists) would like to see all of us westerners end up like Mr. Johnson.
That's the bottom line!!!
The best defense is a good offense!!!

What the hell did you expect? is this a war or is it not? could Paul Jhonson be consider a POW (even without wearing an uniform) or be all his rights denied as geneva convention and another thread sais? If the US is sending Iraquis found in Iraq to be tortured or/and killed in abu-grahib what wouldn´t you do with a bomb technician found in the UK or the US.
I don´t aprove terrorism, I don´t aprove this war but if you get rid of the double standard, you will admit this behading was foreseeable.
Come on, he was an Engineer working on the very same Helicopters that kill hundreds of palestinians. And he was in a very muslim country.
You think that muslim extremists want all the westerns to en up like paul jonhson. Please, no double standards now, okay? why cannot they think that we, chistians, want to end with the Islam (as the bible command)? the thing is that without (apparently) wanting that, we are being quite more successful than them.

Again, and just for the record. I am as against terrorism as the most radical of you can be. What i don´t share with many of you is the definition of terrorism.

[Trent 0]

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Come on, he was an Engineer working on the very same Helicopters that kill hundreds of palestinians.

Don't even try to give validity to their "reason" for killing someone. In the end, all they want is for Al-Jazeera to get them on the world media, thinking that it illustrates how THEY are winning. They just want attention and are fine with killing an "infidel" to get it.

Oh, hello again!

[Botellines 0]

They have a goal and will not hesitate to use whatever means will help them get that goal. Same thing that the US.
The whole problem is that their goal are now diferent than US´s goal. Before, when the US had the same goal than OBL (screwing the soviets) OBL (and al-quaeda) were such a nice bunch of people.

It just bugs me that this is a war or not depending on war supporters agenda.
Why isn´t it as bad when an inocent iraki dies tortured in abu-grahib as the beheading of an american guy?

[Trent 0]

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They have a goal and will not hesitate to use whatever means will help them get that goal. Same thing that the US.
The whole problem is that their goal are now diferent than US´s goal. Before, when the US had the same goal than OBL (screwing the soviets) OBL (and al-quaeda) were such a nice bunch of people.

I think that the people dealing with them knew they were not nice people. Sometimes you have to deal with not nice people to get things done. Besides, they never even said "Thank you".

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It just bugs me that this is a war or not depending on war supporters agenda.
Why isn´t it as bad when an inocent iraki dies tortured in abu-grahib as the beheading of an american guy?

The situation is what it is regardless of anyone's position. When did an innocent iraqi die in a us prison? Or do you just think that anyone in prison is innocent. You're right, they should be out on bail until we can try them in the world court... they'll behave and not attack civilians or coalition troops until then, right? Come on.

And I'll tell you what, being in a war, conflict, whatever... by definition... is saying that the other guys' lives are worth less than one of our own. Maybe someday we'll fight wars with paintballs, but not yet.

Oh, hello again!

[WFFC 1]

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could Paul Johnson be consider a POW (even without wearing an uniform) or be all his rights denied as geneva convention and another thread sais?

No...The Geneva Convention applies to organized governments. Al Queda is not a recognized government so this is kidnapping followed by murder.

[wmw999 2,452]

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Don't even try to give validity to their "reason" for killing someone.

Once you understand a sane person's rationale for an act, no matter how depraved, you have an inkling of how to prevent it in the future. That does not mean you think the act had any justification whatsoever; it just uses a tool to increase predictability.

You might choose not to prevent it, but prevention is generally cheaper than cure, or stomping on it. Stomping might be more satisfying, but preventing it stops it sooner, and doesn't set of other people who might take the same thought pattern and run with it.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Trent 0]

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Once you understand a sane person's rationale for an act, no matter how depraved, you have an inkling of how to prevent it in the future. That does not mean you think the act had any justification whatsoever; it just uses a tool to increase predictability.

You might choose not to prevent it, but prevention is generally cheaper than cure, or stomping on it. Stomping might be more satisfying, but preventing it stops it sooner, and doesn't set of other people who might take the same thought pattern and run with it.

One thing islamic militants are NOT guilty of is having any degree of sanity. If people thing that Bush is crazy for his religious convictions, then those same people should be actively persuing lobotomies for these jack-offs.

Either way, if these kidnapping scumbags think that by doing this, they will get publicity and MAYBE even further muddle the efforts of coalition troops, THEY WILL KEEP DOING IT. No question about it. They did not kill Paul Johnson because he worked for Lockheed, they did it to say "Fuck You" and get people wanting us to pull out of the Mid east.

How could we prevent any further "jihad" being launched against the West? If enough kidnappers get stomped on... maybe they'll stop.

Oh, hello again!

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Don't even try to give validity to their "reason" for killing someone.

Once you understand a sane person's rationale for an act, no matter how depraved, you have an inkling of how to prevent it in the future. That does not mean you think the act had any justification whatsoever; it just uses a tool to increase predictability.

You might choose not to prevent it, but prevention is generally cheaper than cure, or stomping on it. Stomping might be more satisfying, but preventing it stops it sooner, and doesn't set of other people who might take the same thought pattern and run with it.

How can you say that, and then argue we weren't justified in going to war for the same reason? The new information the 9/11 Commission has and the information Russia gave US intel indicates SH was planning terrorist attacks against the US.