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tunaplanet

Another possible beheading

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Would be interesting to see some stats in regard to terrorist attacks and causalities in the Middle East pre and post invasion of Iraq. The argument that invading Iraq would diminish terrorism seems not to hold water.

I often wonder what would have happened if the US would have focussed on finishing the job in Afghanistan, plus going after the known Al Qaeda networks in SEA, Europe and North Africa before turning towards Iraq.
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The argument that invading Iraq would diminish terrorism seems not to hold water.



Answer one question, Mikkey...yes or no...Is the US done with our operations in Iraq and Afghanistan? Answer yes or no for me. No going into a long, word-twisting dialog. Yes or no?



Forty-two

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The argument that invading Iraq would diminish terrorism seems not to hold water.



Answer one question, Mikkey...yes or no...Is the US done with our operations in Iraq and Afghanistan? Answer yes or no for me. No going into a long, word-twisting dialog. Yes or no?



We are not in Abu Ghraib prison here....

No they are not finished - which just shows how bad the strategy and policies behind it has been. If the US had not diverted its resources to Iraq, I would bet they would have had more progress in Afghanistan. (it is now 2 1/2 years since military operations began and the top leaders of the Taleban and Al Qaeda are still not caught).

I also bet there would have been more resources supporting counter terrorist activities in SEA and North Africa available, which have a large network of Al Qaeda cells and training facilities.

Now you answer - has there been more or less terrorist attacks since the invasion of Iraq 15 months ago? Answer yes or no for me. No going into a long, word-twisting dialog. Yes or no? :P :S You are fair dinkum ridiculous...
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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

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No they are not finished



Then perhaps you should wait until we are finished and then make a decision.



How long? 1 year? 5 years? 10 years? Which decision? No need to wait to ascertain if frequency of terrorist attacks has increased over the last 15 months. No need to wait to understand the fact that key Al Qaeda and Taleban leaders have not yet been caught in Afghanistan. No need to wait to see that number of westerners attacked and killed in Saudi Arabia and Iraq has increased. No need to wait to ascertain if Al Qaeda and similar organizations have been strengthened by the invasion and the aftermath (i.e. prisoner abuse).

Fact is that Iraq pre-war was not an Al Qaeda base like Afghanistan. It is a hotbed now. Also, the focus on Iraq might have allowed Al Qaeda groups to reorganise themselves outside Afghanistan. The Madrid bombers came from North Africa. JI in Indonesia is still very strong and dangerous. So the next 9/11 type of attack (if it happens and I hope it does not) - probably might not be committed by terrorists from the Middle East, but maybe by terrorists from SEA or Algeria/Morocco....

If you care to listen to some terrorist "experts" who do not figure on Fox News, you might become as worried as I am.

I am not saying that SH should not have been removed at some stage. But I am convinced that the timing was very wrong (too early), the pre-war diplomatic effort was terrible, and the post war planning was very poor. The way it has been executed it has increased terrorism – not diminished it.

PS: Interesting how you "demand" an yes / no answer and then you won't do it yourself.
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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

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We are not in Abu Ghraib prison here....

Are you trying to compare a fraternity party in Abu Ghraib prison to cutting off somebodys head? Had we not gone in we would have seen more terror out of the Middle East and closer to home. Iraq would have been a sancturary for these criminals. It's not over yet.
Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

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We are not in Abu Ghraib prison here....

Are you trying to compare a fraternity party in Abu Ghraib prison to cutting off somebodys head? Had we not gone in we would have seen more terror out of the Middle East and closer to home. Iraq would have been a sancturary for these criminals. It's not over yet.



You misunderstand. I was referring to tunaplanets very rude "demands" and dictating how exactly it should be answered.

The second part of your post is not supported by any facts. Fact is that terrorist attacks have increased since the invasion of Iraq. Fact is that Iraq was not a sanctuary for terrorists pre-war, but that it is now post-war.
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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

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The second part of your post is not supported by any facts. Fact is that terrorist attacks have increased since the invasion of Iraq. Fact is that Iraq was not a sanctuary for terrorists pre-war, but that it is now post-war.



Fact is, terrorist attacks have been going on for centuries over there. The thing is we are just now becoming more aware of it because it is hitting closer to home. Think for a second....If it weren't Americans or our allies, would we be caring as much?


"There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." - Albert Einstein

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Damn your foreigners for not understanding our subtle ways of combating terrorism by making it increase so later we can claim a decrease when it drops to 90% of what it was after the increase.


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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Fact is, terrorist attacks have been going on for centuries over there. The thing is we are just now becoming more aware of it because it is hitting closer to home. Think for a second....If it weren't Americans or our allies, would we be caring as much?



Your statement is factual incorrect. Please tell me about terrorist attacks centuries ago? Terrorist attacks: Suicide and car bombings, kidnappings, attacks on soldiers and convoys etc. etc. have all occurred in Iraq post invasion. Many of them have been attributed to Al Qaeda, some to SH followers and some to radical Shia's like Sadr.

I think many people are not aware how many hundreds of Iraqi's have been killed in recent months by these attacks. On top of that you have attacks on westerners - not just in Iraq but also in Saudi Arabia.

I am honestly surprised how difficult some people find it to recognize the sad truth. The sad truth is that terrorism has increased not diminished since Iraq was attacked.
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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

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You have two audiences. Those who understand and agree with you and those who refuse to see the truth. Keep railing against the wind but don't expect much in return.


"Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening."
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes

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has there been more or less terrorist attacks since the invasion of Iraq 15 months ago? Answer yes or no for me. No going into a long, word-twisting dialog. Yes or no?



The appropriate question is not "have there been more attacks since the invasion?", but rather "would there have been more or less attacks absent the invasion?"

You can't compare to pre-invasion. You have to posit the existence of a current time without the invasion, and compare to that.
-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

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agreed. Had it not happened this invasion. Probably SH would have continued with his former goverment and politics. I doubt he would have attempted to invade another country, and for sure he couldn´t have done much against the US or Europe. Many Iraquis would have died for being against SH, although i don´t think that would have been as many as all the collateral damage the US and UK managed to inflict. Regarding terrorist attacks, there would have been a lot of terrorist attacks beetwen tribal groups as always. At the moment all the islamic groups seem to have put on hold their diferences and concentrate on attacking their common enemy.
It is hard to tell if there is now more terrorist attacks than if there wasn´t a war (personally i think that yes) but in any case, now the attacks are directed against you, not against eachother. And i hope that no right wing, war supporter sais now that they value iraqui´s lives :S

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Are you really going to sit there and say that massacres and atrocities haven't been going on for centuries over there?

(A) Of course more Iraqis are dead now than were before Iraqi Freedom. The Baathists and anti-american forces fought for power and are now dead. The Iraqis who worked with the US (and continue today as cops and soldiers) died fighting the regime and now the insurgents.

(B) As Tom said, you can't compare before and after. You have to compare quality of life and fear factor to pass any before and after judgments. US troops were not within reach, so terrorism did not happen against us. Terrorism against the people was not necessary because the dictator was in control with no effective opposition in most areas. He used torture and thug squads, rather than terrorism.

Terrorism is on the rise because that's all that's available.

The numbers are also higher because, as someone else said, we are aware of it now. We are there with people on the ground to keep track of things.


It's just like when NYPD started a crime hotline, and the crime rate soared in test areas. Some dipshit politicians blamed the phone number. Criminologists had to use small words to explain that they were just learning about more crimes now - the number hadn't risen, their awareness had.
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Then perhaps you should wait until we are finished and then make a decision.



Come on man. Be fair. If I cut down on my salt intake, excercise regularly, watch my colesterol... and am careful with my skydiving - I could live another 55 - 60 years. Do you really expect me to wait that long?

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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I think too we are looking at frequency of attacks and not casualties of attacks.

A few being killed in several attacks is a lot better than an organized group killing THOUSANDS in one big attack.

These recent kidnappings are efforts of smaller groups trying to make an impact IMO. AQ doesn't seem to have the capabilities they did pre 9/11.

Also, you always seem to hear when bad things happen, but not so much attacks which were prevented from better intel we are getting. This intel is coming from the source. From prisoners and from groups we have infiltrated.
These intel reports are the sort of thing we DID NOT have pre 9/11 due to the Toricelli Principal (SP?)

Chris

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

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