Jumping with White People Rocks

[PhillyKev 0]

There is a fundamental flaw in your exercise. It didn't explore motive, it explored a single statement. It's not the statement that people found offensive in your post and not in the women's, it's the perceived motive.

When a woman says that she loves jumping with other women and all female jumps rock, the perception (by most people) is one of camraderie. It's not a statement to exclude a group of people, it's to express sisterhood.

When someone says they love jumping with white people and white only jumps are great, the perception is different. Here, the perception is one of exclusion because the phrase "white only" has come to stand for racism and discrimination.

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Okay, but for my own bizarre reasons, I just don't feel comfortable with walking up to a man and asking for a tampon! I also don't feel comfortable going up to a man and asking him what his favorite vibrator is! Maybe I'm crazy and sexist, but those are things I just won't do!

I'd like to be there when you do and see what kind of responses you get. For the first, I'd probably go to my wife and get one for you. For the second, I'd first ask you to dance. Then I'd introduce you to some of my single male friends.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

when your balls drop, all of us will take you to rantoul for some real fun.

I love that. Can you stir up a hornets nest or what? Even people without opinions jumped in on this one.

Just to let you know, the all-white-peoples record is 45.

Personally, I think there is too much segregation in skydiving. Everybody wants to be on a "record" or get a medal for "their" event.

I've been on POPS stuff. Mainly for the reason that I got invited and it's fun. If others want to exclude me, I don't really care. I've got my own stuff to do.

Ever used a sledgehammer to kill houseflies?

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

I just don't feel comfortable with walking up to a man and asking for a tampon!

Just to let you know, I don't have any of the store-bought type. I buy a box of cotton and roll my own.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

I just don't feel comfortable with walking up to a man and asking for a tampon!

My 3 older sisters used to bribe me to go buy them tampons. Of course they were all usually on the same cycle, so it didn't take much incentive for me to want to get the hell out of the house.

Quote

also don't feel comfortable going up to a man and asking him what his favorite vibrator is!

That's the kind of thing you can't tell someone, you have to show them.

[DrunkMonkey 0]

But Mike, didn't you know that we white males are the root of all evil? We own everything...so we are forbidden to have any identity...we are "The Man."

Quick! call Rage Against The Machine!! We need an anthem denouncing us!!

[kelel01 1]

Quote

When a woman says that she loves jumping with other women and all female jumps rock, the perception (by most people) is one of camraderie. It's not a statement to exclude a group of people, it's to express sisterhood.

When someone says they love jumping with white people and white only jumps are great, the perception is different. Here, the perception is one of exclusion because the phrase "white only" has come to stand for racism and discrimination.

This is the most intelligent statement in here. If you wanted to do an "all-dicks jump", I'm not gonna be offended . . . it's comraderie. What do you think of social fraternities and sororities that only accept one sex or the other? Is it not ok to bond with other people in a similar situation, such as being part of only 13% of a male-dominated sport, or being a male college student, etc.?

Kelly

[crwmike 0]

Quote

I'm not talking about your Berkely think tank exercise from your original post. I'm talking about the personal attacks you've made in the thread.

Really? Please quote what you are calling personal attacks.

Michael

[crwmike 0]

Quote

There is a fundamental flaw in your exercise. It didn't explore motive, it explored a single statement. It's not the statement that people found offensive in your post and not in the women's, it's the perceived motive.

When a woman says that she loves jumping with other women and all female jumps rock, the perception (by most people) is one of camraderie. It's not a statement to exclude a group of people, it's to express sisterhood.

When someone says they love jumping with white people and white only jumps are great, the perception is different. Here, the perception is one of exclusion because the phrase "white only" has come to stand for racism and discrimination.

Perception. Yes! I agree with you. They are perceived differently. Why do you think that is, Phil?



Michael

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Perception. Yes! I agree with you. They are perceived differently. Why do you think that is, Phil?

Basically because of conditioning and mind set. Whether the discrimination still exists or not, the subject of sexism is not a burning sociological issue in the US these days. Race, however, is. And furthermore, you're comparing an all woman jump to all white jump. You're comparing a group that was the opressed party, versus the group that was a privelaged party.

Apples and oranges.

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

What do you think of social fraternities and sororities that only accept one sex or the other?

Chicks Rock, etc is about comraderie/fun.

Fraternities/Sororities have a different function. They provide tutoring, mentoring, and social functions that may impact your business future after graduation. Membership in a fraternity is more than social. Frats have job connections. The two are different situations.

[crwmike 0]

Quote

Quote

Perception. Yes! I agree with you. They are perceived differently. Why do you think that is, Phil?

Basically because of conditioning and mind set. Whether the discrimination still exists or not, the subject of sexism is not a burning sociological issue in the US these days. Race, however, is. And furthermore, you're comparing an all woman jump to all white jump. You're comparing a group that was the opressed party, versus the group that was a privelaged party.

Apples and oranges.

First of all, discrimination oppresses us all. Secondly, your point is absolutely correct. You are merely calling up the imprinted views of the tribal collective. Damn dude, that's not thinking inside the box ...that ain't thinking at all. So I guess we're all just waiting for the tribal elders to tell us what is important.

Michael

[kelel01 1]

Were you in a fraternity? Because the one I hung around with in college was about alcohol, drugs, and sex. I was in a business fraternity (co-ed), which much more closely resembles what you just described.

Also, what's y'alls take on Mensa? Is it discriminatory and wrong because it only lets smart people in? If so, tough nuts. It's an association, and the people are ASSOCIATED for a reason.

Kelly

[Ron 10]

Quote

If you wanted to do an "all-dicks jump", I'm not gonna be offended . . . it's comraderie.

You may not be offended...But others WILL be offended. I bet if I planned an all guy only big way..It would start a shit storm.

Quote

What do you think of social fraternities and sororities that only accept one sex or the other?

From the bit about the PGA and women players:

Quote

The LPGA, for instance, has specifically written bylaws that restrict the playing field to women. Because the PGA Tour does not, Sorenstam -- the world's top-ranked woman golfer -- accepted a sponsor's invite to play the Colonial, becoming the first woman since Babe Didrikson Zaharias in 1945 to play in a PGA event. When Zaharias played the Los Angeles and Tucson opens then, there was no women's pro circuit.

Again its OK for Women, Blacks....Basicly anyone but a White Guy to have an exclusive club or group.

Quote

"She hasn't done anything wrong," Pernice said. "Because our regulations are written to where people thought this would never happen. Whereas with (the LPGA), their bylaws are specific.

"A lot of players disagree with it, but she has a right to be here."

The Policy Board is made up of four player directors -- Pernice, Brad Faxon,

Olin Browne and David Toms -- and four independent directors. The ninth member is the PGA of America director. The Policy Board solicits opinions from the Players' Advisory Councils, which are designed to provide an outlet for players to change policy -- "like the House of Representatives," Pernice said. Apparently, the feedback from the Advisory Council has suggested it might be time for a change.

Pernice said he anticipates Commissioner Tim Finchem would be opposed to such a move among players, with Pernice guessing it would prove unpopular in the court of public opinion.

"The commissioner will probably be against it, but Tim doesn't vote," Pernice said. "I don't want to speak for Tim, but in his position, he'd probably want to take the safe road. And if we did this, we'd get criticized. We take a lot from what the Players Advisory Council has to say."

So the LPGA can prevent me from playing in it, but the PGA has to allow everyone? I really suck at golf, and even from the ladies tees I would get smoked....But I can't play against them....I have to play against men...But they can play against anyone they want?

I find it funny that its OK for everyone but white men to have an exclusive club.

Thats not equality....You want equality? Either make women play in the PGA from the same tees, and get rid of the LPGA, or let anyone play in the LPGA.

To have your own little click that excludes one race, sex whatever, but expect to not allow other groups to have the same is discrimination.

The same goes for jumps...You want to have an all girl way...fine, but it IS discrimination, and for a group that wants to be taken as equal, why encourage the stereotype?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Damn dude, that's not thinking inside the box ...that ain't thinking at all. Get back to me when society tells you it's important.

Just because I recognize reality, doesn't mean I adhere to it. Thanks for the insult, though.

edit

And furthermore, if you want an example of someone pushing the collective mindset and encouraging adherence to societal standards, look for people who try to elliminate any method of classifying people and turning everyone into a completely equal, non-unique cog.

Most people have their own ideas about life and society. There aren't 2 sides, The Man vs. Mike. If people have a different opinion than your's, it doesn't make them an ipso facto tool of society. Not trying to come down on you, but your posts seem to be very judgmental of anyone who shares an opinion with anyone else.

[crwmike 0]

Quote

Quote

Damn dude, that's not thinking inside the box ...that ain't thinking at all. Get back to me when society tells you it's important.

Just because I recognize reality, doesn't mean I adhere to it. Thanks for the insult, though.

Good point, I had already changed it.

Michael

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

First of all, discrimination oppresses us all. Secondly, your point is absolutely correct. You are merely calling up the imprinted views of the tribal collective. Damn dude, that's not thinking inside the box ...that ain't thinking at all. So I guess we're all just waiting for the tribal elders to tell us what is important.

Mike - I think Kev was pointing out the perception of differences between race vs sex comparisons, not necessarily advocating them. Kevin has repeatedly demonstrated he takes people as individuals and not prejudged little groupings - judge them one at a time, help them one at a time, change some one at a time. That's my impression anyway.

Now you might also be replying to that preconception instead of directly to Kev, that's harder to distinguish.

Edit: You guys already got that in the time it took me to write that.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Were you in a fraternity? Because the one I hung around with in college was about alcohol, drugs, and sex. I was in a business fraternity (co-ed), which much more closely resembles what you just described.

I was not in a frat, my brother was. Some frats just party, true. However, there are job offers and internships given to members by frat alumni. That does happen. There is a business/financial/career impact to joining a fraternity or sorority.

Quote

Also, what's y'alls take on Mensa? Is it discriminatory and wrong because it only lets smart people in? If so, tough nuts. It's an association, and the people are ASSOCIATED for a reason.

I have been a Mensa member since I was 25. There is no discrimination on the basis of sex, race, creed, national origin. People within the group have religious or political affliliations, but no agenda is supported by the organization.

(edited for spelling)

[kelel01 1]

So us female skydivers have an "agenda"? Are we trying to take over the world? I'm just not sure how I see that doing an all-chick jump can be considered MORE discriminatory than an organization that only lets in 2% of the population (and I am a member, so don't think I'm upset about that. It's just an example).

Kelly

[Ron 10]

Quote

I have been a Mensa member since I was 25. There is no discrimination on the basis of sex, race, creed, national origin. People within the group have religious or political affliliations, but no agenda is supported by the organization.

(edited for spelling)

anybody else find that funny?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Steel 0]

Also, what's y'alls take on Mensa? Is it discriminatory and wrong because it only lets smart people in? If so, tough nuts. It's an association, and the people are ASSOCIATED for a reason.

=====================================

You know I was going to stay out of this one but you hit in on a key issue here that has made me feel wierd and confused. Mensa. I don't know how much the general population knows about this but its simply a group of people who want nothing more than to associate with the smartest of the general population, the smartest 2% to be exact. A lot of people think they are smart but don't really understand what smarter than 98% of the population really means.
Now back to my opinion on the matter. So I went to the website and took their free online screening test. If I recall correctly it had like 30 questions of which I answered 18 correctly. It said something like my score was a little low but who knows maybe I might just pass there official mensa test. Yeah whatever. I know I won't pass it. If they want to have an exclusive club like that I think its fine. I however would like to start my own club. One that I think matters more because it wouldn't only about how you were born. I mean that would be part of it but another significant part would be what you have done to better yourself. My group would be about strength and body fat levels. If your not in the strongest 98%, we don't don't think you have anything useful to contribute. If you can't keep at the very minimum a .75 ratio from waist to chest, then how can you possibly understand enough about physical fitness to contribute to this group. Yes this is the group I wish to start all I need is a name and some members. Or wait, maybe there is a group that seeks these qualities already that I am not aware of. If anybody knows of one I will appreciate the name and address to seek membership.

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

My group would be about strength and body fat levels. If your not in the strongest 98%, we don't don't think you have anything useful to contribute. If you can't keep at the very minimum a .75 ratio from waist to chest, then how can you possibly understand enough about physical fitness to contribute to this group. Yes this is the group I wish to start all I need is a name and some members. Or wait, maybe there is a group that seeks these qualities already that I am not aware of. If anybody knows of one I will appreciate the name and address to seek membership.

Dude, there's a club like that right around the corner. It's the gym in the gayborhood.

[78RATS 0]

this is the gayest thread ever

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[kelel01 1]

I think all I'm trying to say is, people confuse association with discrimination. All the freaking time, apparently. If there's a 2% body fat club, I can't join, and I'm not gonna get my panties in a twist because of it. I can't join a social fraternity, and sororities discriminate based on girls' appearances and wealth, but I'm not out picketing for that. If I only want to have white friends, I'm allowed to do that. We can pick and choose who we associate with, jump with, etc., based on any reasons we personally deem necessary-- race, religion, gender, etc. There is no law against that, and there's no reason for there to be. I may hang out with and ENJOY HANGING OUT WITH ANY PERSON I CHOOSE FOR WHATEVER REASONS I CHOOSE TO DO SO.

Kelly

[wmw999 2,485]

I don't think there's a problem with starting any sort of group of people you want to hang out with. After all, there are white militias, girl scouts, women's caucuses, and disease-related groups.

Note: I'm not referring to Steel with the word "you" in this paragraph:
It's when you want other people to like and approve of it, well, that's not always going to happen. And no, they will not like and approve of things consistently. They might sue, and if you hold a significant social benefit, they might win. Anybody can sue over anything. If you don't hold a significant social benefit, then they look like idiots. There is no constitutional protection against people thinking one is an idiot.

So form a tough-n-buff group. Have a great time with it. But the more time people spend with those who already fit with them, the less time they spend learning about the real world.

Wendy W.
(who'll jump with just about any half-assed group that will let her)

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)