Zennie 0 #76 June 28, 2004 QuoteThen how do you know one was issued? You're joking right? If you choose to stick your head in the sand and question nothing, so be it. The Act authorizes the issuance of secret surveillance subpoenas and you think our government is NOT going to use that? Don't patronize me. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #77 June 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteIf they are "secret subpeonas" how is it you know about them? About individual ones, I don't... because this Act makes it a crime to reveal that one was issued. If it's a crime to reveal that one was issued, then didn't you just violate the law? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #78 June 28, 2004 QuoteIf it's a crime to reveal that one was issued, then didn't you just violate the law? No. Why don't you go and try and figure out how I didn't. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #79 June 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteThen how do you know one was issued? You're joking right? If you choose to stick your head in the sand and question nothing, so be it. The Act authorizes the issuance of secret surveillance subpoenas and you think our government is NOT going to use that? Don't patronize me. I'm not patronizing you. I'm asking you to back up your claims. You made them, not me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #80 June 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteIf it's a crime to reveal that one was issued, then didn't you just violate the law? No. Why don't you go and try and figure out how I didn't. Gee, it's kind of late. Maybe you could just tell me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #81 June 28, 2004 QuoteThe Act authorizes the issuance of secret surveillance subpoenas and you think our government is NOT going to use that? You don't think they need this power? Are you against the previously existing use of this power to fight organized crime?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #82 June 28, 2004 QuoteI'm asking you to back up your claims. Umm, those links I posted weren't just for the heck of it. I recommend you go READ them and figure it out yourself. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwmike 0 #83 June 28, 2004 QuoteOkay, I gotta ask... Moore haters and lovers alike... If you were a muslim extremist somewhere, would this film make you want to go out and kill some Americans? Would it make you feel more justified in doing so? Be honest... do you think that this film will make it easier for the extremists to justify their actions? Not that I'd give Moore THAT much credit, but with the publicity in the media, I'm sure there are many many angry arabs wanting to see it. Man, attitudes like this scared me in the 60's and still give me cold chills. Attitudes that take an American exercising his right to voice his opinions and question the ethics and actions of his government in a public forum ...is somehow less of an American???? America! Love it of leave it? Life ain't that simple, dude. Michael Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #84 June 28, 2004 QuoteGee, it's kind of late. Maybe you could just tell me. Yes, it appears you enjoy being told what to think rather than thinking for yourself. If you're too lazy to click on the multiple links I provided, and would rather be spoon-fed propaganda, I can't help you. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #85 June 28, 2004 Calm down, Mike. Re-read the question, and then, INSTEAD of ranting about something I never said... try answering it. I asked hoping for honest answers, regardless of what I think.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #86 June 28, 2004 had an Iraqi fire rounds at you yet? I dont think you know the true nature of this fight....Bush is doing a good job of fighting his own war against freedom. I'd hope Kerry isn’t so short sighted as to be ignorant of the commitments we (the US) has made simply by starting this action. But I also believe he'd be allot more motivated about getting us out of what is rapidly becoming a very bad situation militarily. There are quite a number of things we could be doing, to improve our security and quality of life that GWB cares nothing about, and I am one at least who is appalled by the number of things the sheep have accepted as 'necessary' at the prompting of their executive shepards. Given that the Republicans control Congress (unless they all lose their minds and completely attach themselves to GWB and what is becoming an ultra conservative leadership of a more moderate party.) I'm hoping they will fight each other for at least 4 years till someone with some real leadership experience, that the public might actually elect appears.....yea right.... My freedom has suffered more from GWB and his adminstration than from any terrorist action to date, and every day our real freedoms get smaller and smaller...I’ll vote for nearly anyone who will slow that process, even if it is primarily through incompetence, incompetence has worked as a strategy for the last several administrations, i don’t see why it wouldn’t work any differently for the next. But I'd rather not have them off on a holy war as well. I'm very interested to see who Kerry picks for advisors mind you.____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #87 June 28, 2004 I think Moore's film does indeed, indirectly, give aid and comfort to the enemy. Of course he is free to do so. And he should not be suprised when many exercise their free speech rights to label him as anti-American.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #88 June 28, 2004 Trent, this is what I'm going off of... QuoteAs an American, I'd avoid deliberately giving the terrorists additional fuel for the fire. I'd avoid letting them get the warm fuzzy feeling that they just might be justified in attacking the US. I'd avoid letting them know that through their actions, people in the US are becoming divided. THAT's what they want, and we're already giving it to them. I interpreted that as saying we should not oppose what the administration is doing because terrorists might be encouraged to act again. If I'm wrong in my interpretation, I apoligize, but that's the way I read it. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #89 June 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteGee, it's kind of late. Maybe you could just tell me. Yes, it appears you enjoy being told what to think rather than thinking for yourself. If you're too lazy to click on the multiple links I provided, and would rather be spoon-fed propaganda, I can't help you. I'm very familiar with the Patriot Act. I'm also familiar with the politicians from both parties who overwhelmingly passed it. Perhaps since you are such an expert and all on the Patriot Act that you could explain to us what "new" powers the Patriot Act gave the government that didn't exist before and how those new powers are being used to take away your freedoms. Also would be nice if you could explain to someone as ignorant as I am, what rights you have personally lost that are more important than the additional communications the Patriot Act creates within the different law enforcement agencies that these rights you have lost are so dramatically important that you feel the additional law enforcement powers should be subjugated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #90 June 28, 2004 QuoteAnd he should not be suprised when many exercise their free speech rights to label him as anti-American. Sure, folks have the right to say that... but do you really think saying oppsition to an administration == opposition to America is healthy or accurate? - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #91 June 28, 2004 QuoteI'm also familiar with the politicians from both parties who overwhelmingly passed it. And who never read it. Riddle me this... if the act is so innocuous as you imply, why is there so much opposition to it? - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #92 June 28, 2004 Ted, you're really hyped up about all this. Good for you, now go do some of the research for yourself instead of letting some of the "less-than-balanced" websites you've listed think for you. I scanned through parts of the act from your original link. Basically it expedites getting permission to investigate people in time sensitive cases, particularly in phone and email cases, or in cases where large sums of money are being moved often. Basically, all the prying that the feds are doing is STILL subject to review, either by judge and/or by the senate in semi-annual reviews. And in most cases, it looks like it applies to existing cases where they can't file a public petition for security reasons. It also SPECIFICALLY prohibits any persocution of anyone, citizen or not, for exercising their 1st amendment rights. To answer a couple of your questions (too many posts, not enough time): No, I don't care if the government knows what books I've checked out at the library. They can't do anything about it even when they know, and they still need to answer to someone as to why they're interested in me. Holding US citizens without representation? Where? Is that those guys captured in Afghanistan? That doesn't bother me either in that case. I'd still like to know what freedoms have been stolen from me. If you have something good, at this point, please reference the section of law that limits that freedom so that I may know EXACTLY what you're referring to. It'll just save time, and put the responsibility of reading the damn thing closely on both of us.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #93 June 28, 2004 QuoteI'm very familiar with the Patriot Act. And nothing in there, or Patriot II bothers you? I just want to be clear on that. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #94 June 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteAnd he should not be suprised when many exercise their free speech rights to label him as anti-American. Sure, folks have the right to say that... but do you really think saying oppsition to an administration == opposition to America is healthy or accurate? Suppose I went over to Iraq and starting making speeches saying I supported Al Qaeda and hoped they brought America to her knees and I started rallying Iraqis to join Al Qaeda and fight against America because we were infidels and I thought all Americans should be murdered in the name of Allah. Would you support my right of freee speech? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trent 0 #95 June 28, 2004 Yes, you do have what I said wrong. I said I'd avoid doing things in a way that might encourage badguys. I can ask questions without screaming that the US is bad and horrible.Oh, hello again! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #96 June 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteI'm also familiar with the politicians from both parties who overwhelmingly passed it. And who never read it. Riddle me this... if the act is so innocuous as you imply, why is there so much opposition to it? Because highly excitable and gullible people get sucked into all the anti-Bush rhetoric. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #97 June 28, 2004 QuoteNo, I don't care if the government knows what books I've checked out at the library. They can't do anything about it even when they know, and they still need to answer to someone as to why they're interested in me. Holding US citizens without representation? Where? Is that those guys captured in Afghanistan? That doesn't bother me either in that case. Trent, the trend of increased government surveillance doesn't bother you? Honestly? I don't have anything to hide either, but Jesus, where does it stop? Especially when people who oppose it are labelled "un-American"? That's not freedom, that's fascism. Do you really think our Founding Fathers would approve of this? - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #98 June 28, 2004 QuoteSuppose I went over to Iraq and starting making speeches saying I supported Al Qaeda and hoped they brought America to her knees and I started rallying Iraqis to join Al Qaeda and fight against America because we were infidels and I thought all Americans should be murdered in the name of Allah. Would you support my right of freee speech? Well, you twisted it a bit by going over there. What we're talking about is what's going on here. Either way, the Libertarian in me would say, "Yes, that is your right as a human." I'd prefer you say them here, where it might cause political change, but if you went over there, that is your choice and your right. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #99 June 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteI'm very familiar with the Patriot Act. And nothing in there, or Patriot II bothers you? I just want to be clear on that. No, theres nothing in the Patriot Act that bothers me. Is there something specifically that bothers you? Have you really read it or are you reacting to something you read somewhere by someone, attempting to get you angry and upset, made up worst case senarios? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #100 June 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteSuppose I went over to Iraq and starting making speeches saying I supported Al Qaeda and hoped they brought America to her knees and I started rallying Iraqis to join Al Qaeda and fight against America because we were infidels and I thought all Americans should be murdered in the name of Allah. Would you support my right of freee speech? Well, you twisted it a bit by going over there. What we're talking about is what's going on here. Either way, the Libertarian in me would say, "Yes, that is your right as a human." I'd prefer you say them here, where it might cause political change, but if you went over there, that is your choice and your right. Now suppose I started these same activities here in the US and I said "Al Qaeda should kill the American Infidels and they should start with people whose names start with Z. You still OK with my right to free speech? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
