Jimbo 0 #51 June 25, 2004 QuoteLets look at assaults per capita and things are closer with the USA at #5 the UK in hot pursuit at #7. . . . So, Peaceful Dude and other supporters of personal gun ownership, we will stick with the status quo on gun control in our country, because it works for our particular set of circumstances, thank you very much. Do you think that you'll have this viewpoint if/when the UK passes the US in assaults per capita? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #52 June 25, 2004 QuoteListen to me very carefully when I say this. WE DO NOT CARE. You have your views on gun legislation, and we have ours. We are happy that our views are in place in our country and don't give a damn about your concerns. Please take your whining elsewhere. Amen, brother. Sad that debating repetitive topics such as this is the highlight of their day. I would hate to meet some of these guys in real life. I picture the majority of the people that post a bazillion times a day in Whine Back are the same drunks I see at the local bar trashing their government, rambling on about their conspiracy theories and bashing Bush. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #53 June 25, 2004 I don't know Jimbo, it would depend if our crime rate got worse, or yours got better. I like to think that things won't get that bad, but if they do, I'm quite prepared to change my viewpoint. I'd rather press my government to attend to the situation first though, rather than take things into my own hands. Like I said, its a culture thing, different strokes for different folks. We don't have a strong gun ownership culture here, it would take a huge change in our crime profiles to warrant widespread requests to change our gun laws. I like to think that the govt would be well on top of things way before that point, this is the way its worked up to now. I'm not saying that your way is any better or worse than our way, its just different. You guys have a worse crime rate than we do, and a tradition of gun ownership, hence your aversion to firearm control.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #54 June 25, 2004 Quoteit would take a huge change in our crime profiles to warrant widespread requests to change our gun laws. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but isn't that huge change in your crime profiles going on right now? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #55 June 25, 2004 Not where I live. Anything linkable to firm up your suspicion of crime rate change? In the interests of healthy debate, of course, I actually have no strong opinions on this. I'm just a little fed up being told to solicit our govt for gun law change, a course of action that would currently be about as popular as a bacon sandwich at a barmitzvah-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #56 June 25, 2004 Mmmmmm.......... bacon - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #57 June 25, 2004 -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #58 June 25, 2004 regarding the Brits.......remember the "sheep" were left behind......the troublemakers and risk takers were "exported" to the colonies.....they are content w/there firearms laws.... more power to them !I am content ( for the most part) with the firearms laws in Colorado,one of the many reasons I choose to live here.....you can argue until I become a Democratand the majority of the Brits will never change their mind about their firearms laws.What works for them would not work for the US.....and vice versa.......cultural and societal differences being what they are....any brits that think their laws would work for us and any yanks that think our laws would work in the UK are just pissing upwind!!Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #59 June 25, 2004 Quote (At this point could the pro-gun folk here please leave and study the attached pics of guns I found for you? Thanks) Is this one of those trick pictures - I don't see any guns.? Edited: Damn - Am I Late.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #60 June 25, 2004 Baaaaah. We are at least peaceful sheep. this link is to last year's crime figures in Scotland, overall, crime has fallen by 5%. http://www.scotland.gov.uk/stats/bulletins/00338-03.asp I'm pretty sure Mr2 will have some decent stats for the rest of the country, and will post an explanation for them soon. But up here, we are, for the time being, well behaved sheep. I'm off to chew some turnips, have a cool weekend folks.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #61 June 25, 2004 Quoteisn't that huge change in your crime profiles going on right now? Yes - there is a change in the types of crime going on. This has been a very swift change and is intrinsically linked with the growth of Yardie gangs over the past 15 years. It's difficult to think of another time when the UK crime models were so significantly shifted in such a short space of time. Over the past 15 years we have seen a power struggle develop between our indigenous drug suppliers and Yardie gangs who have moved in to take over. I’m not sure if the US is familiar with the Yardie style of operating? Yardies are a Jamaican crime syndicate similar to the Mafia or Yakuza but this time it’s young black Jamaicans. We’ve seen a massive influx of these people and they have taken almost all aspects of organised crime in the area’s they’ve targeted. It is this single trend, more than any other that has driven up gun crime in this country. We are not seeing a gradual drift towards illegal gun ownership by members of the public; nor are we seeing a gradual drift towards gun use by small time criminals. We’re simply seeing an influx of foreign gangsters who bring with them their culture of gun use; a culture that is in its self, foreign to the UK. The Yadies have taken over the supply of drugs almost completely, mainly because they have guns and their competitors do not, or at least did not. The Met (London police) created operation Trident a few years ago to tackle the problem, and they succeeded in making life so hard for the Yardies within the capitol that many moved on. One of the first places they hit was Bristol, where I live, just 100 miles along a major motorway. Our gang crime went through the roof a few years ago. We started to see shootings - something that we’d never really seen in the city before, at least not in any numbers. I remember speaking to the coroner about this – he was a wealth of knowledge on crime trends because he sees every single murder victim in the region for the past 30 years (yes we need only one coroner for the whole South West). The thing is, we’re not seeing grannies shot for their pension, we’re not seeing bankers shot in robberies, nor are we seeing dozens of dead burglary victims. What we are finding though are young men with links to the drugs trade and young Jamaican men with gang links executed in their flats, or involved in shootouts with rivals. This trend has been repeated all over the country. There are Yardie groups in most of the major cities; Bristol, Manchester and Birmingham have been badly hit. The Home Counties (the area immediately around London) has also been badly affected. Scotland even has its fair share of problems from these gangs despite it’s distance. When people cite a change in British crime trends, they are right – we have seen a major change over the past few years. These people often point to the fact that this jump roughly correlates with the banning of many types of guns after Dunblane. But where they are wrong is that this correlation does not indicate causation. These figures have jumped purely and simply because of this single foreign influence, and not because law abiding citizens have suddenly been stopped from carrying pistols around with them, (a right we have never had here). We have seen an influx of violent criminals who carry guns. They carried guns before they came to Britain, and they continue to do so now. This is the reason why we have seen a jump in shootings. I am sick of being told that giving back guns to law-abiding citizens would affect the operation of the Yardies. It’s a ridiculous premise, as by and large it is not law-abiding citizens who get shot at by Yardies but other criminals. It seems they are willing to acquire guns in any case. And this is why I say we need better enforcement as opposed to a change. Read up on the problems we have had in this country before you start pointing to rough trends in cold figures. The linked article is a good place to start. And quit telling us what we want. We are quite capable of deciding on what we want ourselves; we’ve been doing it for a few thousand years now. http://www.crackcocaineincamden.co.uk/pages/crack%20cocaine%20news/news%20pages/0200/0106.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #62 June 25, 2004 "I'm pretty sure Mr2 will have some decent stats for the rest of the country, and will post an explanation for them soon." Right on cue.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #63 June 25, 2004 ***Baaaaah. should have been more specific.......I did not mean to lump Brit skydivers, scuba divers,royal marines or sas in with the "sheep" crowd.....and god knows we have are share over here as well.And we have a saying here in colorado about our neighbor to the north......Wyoming.....where men are men and sheep are nervous......Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #64 June 25, 2004 There was never that many legal guns in this country to start with. Its only ever been a very small percentage of the population that had them in the first place and even then it wasn't for protection but for sports shooting. All the legal firearms have NOT been confiscated it is still legal to own firearms (pistols, rifles and shotguns.) Controls exist on the amount of rounds that each can hold. These weapons are almost never used to defend homes but for sporting purposes and pest control purposes only. (Tony Martin made the news because his case was so unusual). It is actualy very easy to get a legal shotgun if you want one in your home. Most people don't have one not because they can't get one but because they don't want one and have no need of one. Gun crime has risen here not because of gun control but because of the fall of the Iron curtain and the relaxation of border controls, the weekening of the custom service along with a flood of illegal imigrants, eastern block mafia gangs and the rise in power of the Yardies. Along with a surging drugs trade problem. I am satified with the current legislation, this country would be a disaster area if just anyone could obtain a firearm with the ease that it can be done in the USA. Americans grow up around firearms and tend to regard them as a tool. Over here most people have never had any contact with a firearm and some have never seen them in real life. This means that idiot street youths main contact with them is through Hollywood films and Gansta rap tracks. Give firearms to them and you'r turn Feltham into Fallujah over night. I'd like to see a stronger response to the problems that feul our illegal firearms trade and ownership but I don't want to see this country armed.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #65 June 25, 2004 DOh! Posted first then read your post. What you say is true and in London we also have some eastern european drug gangs. As for the Yardies like you said their topping their own mainly. Good post.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #66 June 28, 2004 "And we have a saying here in colorado about our neighbor to the north......Wyoming.....where men are men and sheep are nervous...... cau dy ffwcin ceg,uffar gwirion! owain glyndwr " Odd thing, we have similar jokes about the Welsh. No hard feelings, everyone knows Scotland is the true home of sheep shagging. But I will repeat the findings, 5% reduction in crime in Scotland, without widespread private firearm ownership. Must be the sheep distracting us, those little minxes.....-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #67 June 28, 2004 Q) Why do Scotsmen where kilts? A) The sheep got used to the sound of a zip!When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #68 June 28, 2004 Velcro sporrans work just dandy. -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #69 June 28, 2004 Guns part of "playground cool" "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #70 June 28, 2004 Glad they got those 50 airguns off the streets of Wales. Gun crime is really running rife there. Damn those BB gun toting kids! Note how it's a statement off the back of Operation Tridant... which is... oh, that's right; the Met's attack on Yardie gangs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #71 June 29, 2004 So what's not going to encourage rebellious little shits to buy and carry an illegal gun, education, or telling them that guns are evil mysterious horrible inventions?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #72 June 29, 2004 QuoteDOh! Posted first then read your post. What you say is true and in London we also have some eastern european drug gangs. As for the Yardies like you said their topping their own mainly. Good post. That's really funny, that you imply it's not so bad to have gun violence because mostly it's criminal scumbags killing criminal scumbags. That accounts for a large percentage of the gun crime in the U.S., too. Maybe if we let them kill each other long enough, we'll reach a point where they render each other excinct: we'll still have our own guns (we honest non-criminals, I mean) and there won't be any gun crime going on, and it'll be too hard to justify trying to take them away from us in the face of a near-zero gun crime rate. Problem solved! --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #73 June 29, 2004 Whilst that I suppose is one solution, it certainly was not the point of my post. I merely suggested that the idea of allowing law abiding citizens to arm themselves in this country has no real logic, as (by and large) it is not law abiding citizens that are being affected by the majority of gun crime. Giving guns to grannies simply would not have any impact whatsoever on 99% of the gun crime. Since criminals appear to be able to arm themselves adequately in spite of our laws, it is not further legislation that is necessary, but better enforcement. Here, anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #74 June 29, 2004 You just made a very good case against gun control. Not only are most people not the perpetrators committing crimes, they are not even involved on the victimization side. So, by that logic, why should we deny them guns, if they are not going to commit crimes, or have crimes committed against them? (ps - a 1 in 4 chance is a lot worse than a 4% chance, but we can talk about that later) (pps - who said only grannies qulify?)witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #75 June 29, 2004 Yup, I completely accept that's one way to look at it. But I think there's issues of "greater good". I think in Britain, there are slightly different figures in play by comparison to the states. If they were legal, who would be saved by them? We don't really need them for self defence, so we can't really point to a number of lives saved by guns like you may be able to in the states. Now I know that is a generalisation, but by and large it is true. The problem came because people were able to point to a number of lives taken by guns. It was pretty much as simple as that back in the early 90's when the row kicked off over here. Ban them: no one dies but we lose a liberty. Legalise them: some people die but we have another liberty. How important was that liberty vs. the number of people who would die? Well... the parliament (backed by the public) spoke 10 years ago on that matter. If the mass opinion changes maybe we will see another change in the law. Right now, Britain simply doesn't care. It's just not like the states over here, overall we don't care about guns. Quoteps - a 1 in 4 chance is a lot worse than a 4% chance, but we can talk about that later) eh? 1 in 4 = 25%... I must have missed something... who said what now? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
