tunaplanet 0 #1 June 24, 2004 Pigs at their finest...again. Clicky Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #2 June 24, 2004 I'll reserve judgment until I see the entire video or I can at least hear the officer's account.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
akarunway 1 #3 June 24, 2004 Repeat of an action of EVERY police dept in the U.S every day. You just don't hear about it I hold it true, whate'er befall; I feel it, when I sorrow most; 'Tis better to have loved and lost Than never to have loved at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tink1717 2 #4 June 24, 2004 I've seen the whole video. It started AFTER the suspect was secure. Clearly they blew it.Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off. -The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!) AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #5 June 24, 2004 So, by "secure" you mean handcuffed, shackled, not resisting, and enroute to a crusier? Otherwise, I'll still wait until I see it for myself. While interning with PG County PD (that's MD for anyone who cares), I was allowed to run through a 'redman' simulation. Out of three sims, I died once to a concealed knife after having one cuff on, was slapped with a simulated lawsuit on the second , and did it right on the third. My partner and I tackled him, he was laying on the guys back (as in the CNN shot), and we couldn't get his arms together for cufs, so I used my baton, already out, on his legs. When that didn't do it, and we got all flipped around wrestling, I struck his upper back, another 'green zone.' Guess what. People along the wall on the other side of the room asked why I hit him in the head. I said I didn't. They had an angle similar to the helicopter. Remember, rule number one is everybody goes home tonight. (or to jail)witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #6 June 24, 2004 QuoteMy partner and I tackled him, he was laying on the guys back (as in the CNN shot), and we couldn't get his arms together for cufs, so I used my baton, already out, on his legs. When that didn't do it, and we got all flipped around wrestling, I struck his upper back, another 'green zone.' Guess what. People along the wall on the other side of the room asked why I hit him in the head. I said I didn't. They had an angle similar to the helicopter. That's just stupid, the best way of doing this, is without striking. "Horse bites" to the back of arm or inside of the upper thigh are far more effective and will not give an impression of you beating the subject. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #7 June 24, 2004 QuoteThat's just stupid, the best way of doing this, is without striking. "Horse bites" to the back of arm or inside of the upper thigh are far more effective and will not give an impression of you beating the subject. Easy to arm chair QB things huh?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #8 June 24, 2004 Well, I was a college intern with precisely zero experience. It was an effective teaching tool though (teaching just how hard it is for a cop to look 'right'). Hell, right now I still don't know what a "horse bite" is. Nothing is more fun than putting police brutality whiners through a Shoot-Don't Shoot simulator. They end up killing everyone. Same thing with physical force simulations.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #9 June 24, 2004 QuoteHell, right now I still don't know what a "horse bite" is. Just a simple pinch with as little skin as possible to those two areas will get a very quick reaction Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #10 June 24, 2004 Right, because pinching someone is so easy while you're trying to control his arms, make sure you don't get shot or stabbed, and there's no chance you're finger/hand/wrist will be broken sticking it in there. When arm holds and joint locks are not working, you really think pinching someone is the answer? Be realistic.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,027 #11 June 24, 2004 QuoteWell, I was a college intern with precisely zero experience. It was an effective teaching tool though (teaching just how hard it is for a cop to look 'right'). Hell, right now I still don't know what a "horse bite" is. Nothing is more fun than putting police brutality whiners through a Shoot-Don't Shoot simulator. They end up killing everyone. Same thing with physical force simulations. How relevant is that exactly? Rather like putting a passenger who complains about airline delays in a flight simulator and seeing how funny it is that they "crash".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kennedy 0 #12 June 24, 2004 Too many people don't know the difference between what it looks like and what it is. It's enjoyable to show them just how little they know, and it usually gets them to shut up for a while. Anyone who really cares can take a look at police training manuals. Most of them are public record. If you don't like what they teach, change it. Don't just bitch abuot it when cops use what they were taught. Especially when no one has a better idea. (besides, watching a delay whiner crash wouldn't be fun, putting htem in a practice ATC tower, now that would be fun)witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #13 June 24, 2004 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, I was a college intern with precisely zero experience. It was an effective teaching tool though (teaching just how hard it is for a cop to look 'right'). Hell, right now I still don't know what a "horse bite" is. Nothing is more fun than putting police brutality whiners through a Shoot-Don't Shoot simulator. They end up killing everyone. Same thing with physical force simulations. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How relevant is that exactly? Rather like putting a passenger who complains about airline delays in a flight simulator and seeing how funny it is that they "crash". I think its very relevent....I mean how can you complain about a way a person does something if you really don't know how hard that situation is? I'd like to see the biggest anti police people ride along WITH thye cops to see hwat they do everyday...And I'd like to see them try and contain a violent person trying neat "tricks" they have read about in a book."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,465 #14 June 24, 2004 QuoteRight, because pinching someone is so easy while you're trying to control his arms, make sure you don't get shot or stabbed, and there's no chance you're finger/hand/wrist will be broken sticking it in there. When arm holds and joint locks are not working, you really think pinching someone is the answer? Be realistic. I'll forward your message on to the training officer of the largest ETF force in Canada, also a former trainer of the LA SWAT teams, an active combatant during Vietnam as a two time volunteer. It works quite well for him in his daily work. And I can tell you from personal experience that it is extremely effective and looks much better than knee strikes or strikes with a flashlight or anything similar to that. Now this is assuming you already have him on the ground..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Darius11 12 #15 June 24, 2004 ***And I'd like to see them try and contain a violent person trying neat "tricks" they have read about in a book. Going by that article only. If that article is correct the suspect was not violent. He surrendered. No need to kick him in the head or hit him with a flash light even in his arms. If he was resisting yes but if puts his hands behind his head gets on his knees and follows instruction he should not be hit 11 times. The police have to face life threatening situations all the time. But do you I mean You Ron and Kennedy think IF the article is 100% accurate that the officers actions was right?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #10 June 24, 2004 Right, because pinching someone is so easy while you're trying to control his arms, make sure you don't get shot or stabbed, and there's no chance you're finger/hand/wrist will be broken sticking it in there. When arm holds and joint locks are not working, you really think pinching someone is the answer? Be realistic.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,027 #11 June 24, 2004 QuoteWell, I was a college intern with precisely zero experience. It was an effective teaching tool though (teaching just how hard it is for a cop to look 'right'). Hell, right now I still don't know what a "horse bite" is. Nothing is more fun than putting police brutality whiners through a Shoot-Don't Shoot simulator. They end up killing everyone. Same thing with physical force simulations. How relevant is that exactly? Rather like putting a passenger who complains about airline delays in a flight simulator and seeing how funny it is that they "crash".... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #12 June 24, 2004 Too many people don't know the difference between what it looks like and what it is. It's enjoyable to show them just how little they know, and it usually gets them to shut up for a while. Anyone who really cares can take a look at police training manuals. Most of them are public record. If you don't like what they teach, change it. Don't just bitch abuot it when cops use what they were taught. Especially when no one has a better idea. (besides, watching a delay whiner crash wouldn't be fun, putting htem in a practice ATC tower, now that would be fun)witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #13 June 24, 2004 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, I was a college intern with precisely zero experience. It was an effective teaching tool though (teaching just how hard it is for a cop to look 'right'). Hell, right now I still don't know what a "horse bite" is. Nothing is more fun than putting police brutality whiners through a Shoot-Don't Shoot simulator. They end up killing everyone. Same thing with physical force simulations. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- How relevant is that exactly? Rather like putting a passenger who complains about airline delays in a flight simulator and seeing how funny it is that they "crash". I think its very relevent....I mean how can you complain about a way a person does something if you really don't know how hard that situation is? I'd like to see the biggest anti police people ride along WITH thye cops to see hwat they do everyday...And I'd like to see them try and contain a violent person trying neat "tricks" they have read about in a book."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #14 June 24, 2004 QuoteRight, because pinching someone is so easy while you're trying to control his arms, make sure you don't get shot or stabbed, and there's no chance you're finger/hand/wrist will be broken sticking it in there. When arm holds and joint locks are not working, you really think pinching someone is the answer? Be realistic. I'll forward your message on to the training officer of the largest ETF force in Canada, also a former trainer of the LA SWAT teams, an active combatant during Vietnam as a two time volunteer. It works quite well for him in his daily work. And I can tell you from personal experience that it is extremely effective and looks much better than knee strikes or strikes with a flashlight or anything similar to that. Now this is assuming you already have him on the ground..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #15 June 24, 2004 ***And I'd like to see them try and contain a violent person trying neat "tricks" they have read about in a book. Going by that article only. If that article is correct the suspect was not violent. He surrendered. No need to kick him in the head or hit him with a flash light even in his arms. If he was resisting yes but if puts his hands behind his head gets on his knees and follows instruction he should not be hit 11 times. The police have to face life threatening situations all the time. But do you I mean You Ron and Kennedy think IF the article is 100% accurate that the officers actions was right?I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #16 June 24, 2004 QuoteThe police have to face life threatening situations all the time. But do you I mean You Ron and Kennedy think IF the article is 100% accurate that the officers actions was right? No, if he was listening to the police and following orders then he should not be beaten up... However, most times these stories are very slanted. Most don't show how the guy was fighting back.... One in LA a guy grabbed an officers "Package" so he hit him...the headline was "Officer hits suspect", not "Police Officer defends himself from attack.""No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Darius11 12 #17 June 24, 2004 Yea with the media there is always a slant towards one way or the other. I wish they would just report what they saw.I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #18 June 24, 2004 The article doesn't address whether or not the felon was resisting after the officers took him to the ground. I've seen instances where everything seems to be kosher, then you get within arms reach to cuff him, and it all goes to shit because he decided suddenly that he really doesn't want to go to jail. When officers are arresting a suspect, they have to do everything they can to ensure their own safety, and thereby the suspect's own safety. If you're close enough to cuff him, he's close enough to grab your gun, or your pepper spray, or whatever else is on your belt. That's why you have to do everything 100%. Sometimes that makes the suspect fight back, sometimes he just planned on fighting anyway. Bottom line is when you're laying on a suspect who isn't cuffed, anything other than him lying there limp is serious resistance. Again, like I said to Tink, your definition of surrendered is probably different from that of a cop. Just because you stopped running doesn't mean you are no longer a potential threat. And every potential threat must be addressed as a real threat by police officers. A suspect kneeling on the ground with his arms spread out would probably qualify as surrendered in your book. To a cop, however, that's just not good enough. If you refuse to lie down, face down, on the ground, you are resisting, and some amount of force is necessary to make you lie down.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #19 June 25, 2004 I have several friends who are police officers. I always give cops the benefit of the doubt until all the facts come out. From the video, it looks like they are losers. That might not be the case - let's hear both sides and find out. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #20 June 25, 2004 QuotePigs at their finest...again. Clicky Maybe I tend to overreact, but if someone steals my car and the police catch them and beat them senseless, the police officers doing the beating will be at the top of my hero list! Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #21 June 25, 2004 QuoteMaybe I tend to overreact, but if someone steals my car and the police catch them and beat them senseless, the police officers doing the beating will be at the top of my hero list! agreed...Lets not forget the guy is a CRIMINAL. Quote A Los Angeles Police Department officer pursuing the driver of a stolen car Quote Officers began chasing the stolen car shortly after 5 a.m. (8 a.m. ET). The pursuit ended in the city of Compton, when the driver jumped out of the vehicle and fled. Quote"Unless some heads roll, we will return to some dark, bad, old days of the LAPD," Los Angeles Urban League President John Mack said. Oh you mean riots from a bunch of lawful citizens? Beating an innocent man in a truck? What if the guy DID resist arrest? Quote"We want this officer criminally prosecuted," Ali said. "We saw an unarmed man be beaten on camera who seemed to be cooperating and not resisting arrest so we're outraged and shocked ... It's very unfortunate that after the Rodney King beating we still have rogue officers within the LAPD." Its a shame we still have jackasses stealing cars. QuoteThe four officers who were seen beating King on the infamous video were acquitted of all charges in 1992, leading to days of rioting in Los Angeles that left 55 people dead. I never got this...Cause some cops beat a known criminal....You guys went nuts and KILLED 55 people? Animals."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #22 June 25, 2004 Quoteagreed...Lets not forget the guy is a CRIMINAL. At first I didn't really agree with this, but I now understand that post 9-11 the concept of innocent till proven guilty in a court of law doesn't really apply anymore in the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #23 June 25, 2004 QuoteAt first I didn't really agree with this, but I now understand that post 9-11 the concept of innocent till proven guilty in a court of law doesn't really apply anymore in the US The guy was driving a STOLEN car...How did he get it? QuoteA Los Angeles Police Department officer pursuing the driver of a stolen car He was running from the cops QuoteOfficers began chasing the stolen car shortly after 5 a.m The pursuit ended in the city of Compton, when the driver jumped out of the vehicle and fled. Why run if you are doing nothing wrong? So we have a guy driving around in a stolen car at 5 AM in the morning. He sees the police and instead of pulling over he tries to evade them. Then he jumps out of the STOLEN car and tries to run. I think its pretty safe to say that this guy is a CRIMINAL. Innocent till proven guilty over here....Driving a STOLEN car, running from the cops, then trying to run away from the STOLEN car.... He is guilty.... Im not such a pansy that I care that much about a proven CRIMINAL. Don't want to get harassed by the cops? Don't fucking steal shit and then try to run from the cops."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Newbie 0 #24 June 25, 2004 Quote LOS ANGELES, California (CNN) -- A Los Angeles Police Department officer pursuing the driver of a stolen car Wednesday was seen on videotape appearing to beat the suspect after he apparently had surrendered. I'm not able to comment fully on what happened as i haven't seen the video yet, but the above is to try and present the other side of the perspective. Sure we can focus on the guy being a criminal, but we can also focus on the fact he (apparently) had tried to surrender and still caught a beat down. I imagine if people are getting het up about this affair, it will be because the guy tried to give up. As someone who has had his car broken into 4 times in 7 months, there were times that i would DREAM of having the cops catch and beat the hell out of whoever is doing this to me.....but, then reality kicks in, and i calm down, and i would think "if the cops caught this guy would having them beat the hell out of him make me feel better before they took them off to jail?" I can honestly say not only would it not make me feel better, it would most likely leave me with a nasty taste in my mouth. "Skydiving is a door" Happythoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #25 June 25, 2004 QuoteI'm not able to comment fully on what happened as i haven't seen the video yet, but the above is to try and present the other side of the perspective. Sure we can focus on the guy being a criminal, but we can also focus on the fact he (apparently) had tried to surrender and still caught a beat down. The key being the word APPARENTLY.....I can make you think I am going to surender and have you flat out fucked up in about three seconds. The thing you don't see is the guys hands....Where were they? What was he doing? Can you hear if he is COMPLYING with police orders? If I have a KNOWN criminal who has clearly tried to avoid being arrested and he is not obeying police orders...I don't mind him being hit. Now if he WAS obeying orders then the guys that hit him were wrong as hell. However we will NEVER know the truth. We have one guy who is a CRIMINAL saying one thing, and a bunch of COPS saying another. Given the choice I'll listen to the cops...The ones NOT BREAKING the law. Plus the guy suffered no real damage. QuotePaysinger said the man had some slight abrasions and had complained of an injury to his nose, but was otherwise "fine." So while I would not forgive them for just beating a guy down.... I do realize that this guy IS A CRIMINAL. That he AVOIDED capture both in a car and on foot. And I don't know if he was obeying orders...I very much doubt it. And in this whole thing it is only ONE cop that hit him. QuoteThe second officer also jumps on the suspect, who is on the ground in a prone position, while a third officer arrives and appears to kick him in the head. This same officer then drops to the ground, takes out his flashlight and can be seen swinging down at the suspect's head area 11 times. He also appears to use his knee to strike the suspect.. So it seems only ONE cop MAY be a jackass..... But we don't know if the actions were warrented...And we never will. Since that one cop will be fired anyway. We don't want another 50 people KILLED in riots for a lowlife criminal getting hit now do we?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
