See if this doesn't gross you out!

[christelsabine 1]

There is nothing left to answer, as previous posters already did. My replies would have been the same.

My question to you is: What are you complaining about?
- van Hagens fathers' history?
- cut bodies presented (w/o showing any face, BTW) in professional exponates?
- vHs' intent to be located in Poland?

What I really do not buy one second is your interest on behalf of dead bodies, your deep respect on them, no matter which origin.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[ying 0]

Craiched; all around the world accidents and tragedies attract people just like.... (let’s not be brutal) SWEETS attract the flies. Some people really love to watch horrible things. Quentin Tarantino mocked it in his Kill Bill.

Shortly after the tsunami cathaclism the tourists started massively coming to the countries affected by it. Why? Because they wanted to see the effects for themselves. Rich Westerners were resting on the beaches after they had enough of looking at death and 700 feet away from that place more dead bodies were being found. This is the world we live in.

What i find disturbing is the way the bodies which are now Von Hagens’ exhibits were treated and the fact that some necrofile is making millions on death.

Everyone who thinks that one can learn a lot from the Body Worlds exhibition should have visited Tailand or Sri Lanka just after the tragedy that happened there. Why? Because if seeing a cut open womb and a child in it is a good lesson then seeing a rottening body swelled after lying in water also should be.

You say that seeing a skinned body is not a thrill for you? Well, let me then congratulete you – you have a sensitivity of a brick. If i see a body without its skin i think of suffering, torture and Nazi experiments. Oh, by the way, Von Hagens’ father was a Nazi, what an interesting coincidence, don’t you think?

If you were really interested in the way human body is built and how it functions you would buy yourself suitable books and study them. To understand the complexity of our organisms you’d need to start with the single cell and learn about its structure and the processes that take place in it. Learning about the human body by watching a few mutilated exhibits is like learning electronics by watching a computer with all its parts taken out. The effects must be equally miserable.

And as far as showing smokers’ lungs and so on is concerned; i think it’s a good idea. In my opinion there is nothing unapropriate in this.


Billvon; if you don’t mind being ripped to pieces after you die then it’s your will. If you intend to make your organs available for transplantation it’s very noble but i suggest you get interested in the subject before you decide. There’s been a whole debate concerning the problem whether the fact that a person is brain dead means that the person is really dead. Some specialists claim that the death of a brain is not exactly the end of agony. The inner organs keep functioning long after the brain gives no signs of life. And transplantation requires removing the organs as fast as possible. The corpses from which the organs are extracted quite freuently wince and jerk while the surgery is being conducted. That’s why the paralising drugs started to be used during such operations. How do you like it? :/

You say that if i don’t like what Von Hagens does i simply shouldn’t watch it. You see, it isn’t just the matter of liking it or not. I think treating bodies in such a way and making money out of it is EVIL and what is evil should not be ignored. Sure, one can live closed in his or her small safe world and pretend that everything is OK. Most of us who were happy to be born in the free Western world do it everyday. But the evil is close although we often forget about it. Think of the hunger and ADIS epidemic in Africa, think of the extreme poverty in Russia and other regions of the world, think of the homeless, the orphans and so on. It is all out there now as you sit comfortably and read this post.

About boasting; i know only one police investigator and he doesn’t like to talk about the corpses he often finds doing his job. I don’t think that people who see death everyday find the Body Worlds entertaining. But for most of those who vistit this exhibition death is something exotic and rare. I don’t believe that after seeing all those “fascinating” exhibits people try to restrain themselves from talking about it. They surely exchange opinions and describe what they’ve seen to those who haven’t. And there are surely one’s who’re like, WOW man, remember that woman with her stomack sliced open? It was so cool!

If it was the scientific curiosity that attracted the masses then all anatomy books and albums would be bestsellers. Yet somehow they aren’t. This means that it is not the scientific curiosity but other factors that make the exhibition so popular. In my opinion it’s the opportunity of seeing something authentically macabric. But then sex, violence and guts always sell well :/

[craichead 0]

Again, you object to dead bodies being displayed in an extremely scientific and educational manner (maybe you'd see what I'm talking about if you had seen the show, but I'm guessing that you still haven't), yet you don't flinch at tourists going to see tsunami victims because it is simply "the world we live in"? Your argument still doesn't make much sense.

Quote

Everyone who thinks that one can learn a lot from the Body Worlds exhibition should have visited Tailand or Sri Lanka just after the tragedy that happened there. Why? Because if seeing a cut open womb and a child in it is a good lesson then seeing a rottening body swelled after lying in water also should be.

One can learn quite a bit about human anatomy from the Body Worlds exhibition. A whole lot more than you can learn from simply going to a tsunami-stricken land and watching rotting dead bodies. Sure, you may learn something about the fragility of life and the tragedy of natural disasters, but who's going to explain why bodies swell and explode in 72 hours? Or should I go there and gawk just to see what it's like without understanding anything behind the decomposition process? Or did they label all of the body parts and have a placard explaining forensic science? Or perhaps there is an audio tour given by Dr. William Bass of the University of Tennessee Body Farm? Where do I sign up?

Quote

You say that seeing a skinned body is not a thrill for you? Well, let me then congratulete you – you have a sensitivity of a brick. If i see a body without its skin i think of suffering, torture and Nazi experiments. Oh, by the way, Von Hagens’ father was a Nazi, what an interesting coincidence, don’t you think?

Thanks for the congrats. I don't have the sensitivity of a brick; I simply have the sensibility and maturity level to view it as something that's highly valuable in its educational potential. I also have the sense to VIEW the exhibit I'm critiquing before I condemn and/or praise it. Just because von Hagen's father was a Nazi doesn't mean that he himself is. I'll take the high road and give him the benefit of the doubt since I don't know him personally.

Quote

If you were really interested in the way human body is built and how it functions you would buy yourself suitable books and study them. To understand the complexity of our organisms you’d need to start with the single cell and learn about its structure and the processes that take place in it.

Who's to say that I haven't? I took advanced biology, chemistry and physics in high school and university. I also have three practicing medical doctors in my family with whom I've frequently and scientifically discussed illnesses and health issues. I used to accompany my father to the hospital to read x-rays, MRIs, and CAT scans with him. What you don't seem to understand is that you can not learn everything from a book. Do you skydive? Do you think you can completely understand and know how to skydive by reading a book? If you think you can, remind me to NEVER jump with you.

Quote

And as far as showing smokers’ lungs and so on is concerned; i think it’s a good idea. In my opinion there is nothing unapropriate in this.

So why is it inappropriate to show the rest of the bodies? It's okay if you take certain pieces out and separate them from the rest of the body? Wouldn't that be disrepectful to the person to have pieces of his body in different places? Or what if some parts were discarded and some were displayed? Or is it suddenly okay if it becomes educational?

Quote

If it was the scientific curiosity that attracted the masses then all anatomy books and albums would be bestsellers. Yet somehow they aren’t. This means that it is not the scientific curiosity but other factors that make the exhibition so popular. In my opinion it’s the opportunity of seeing something authentically macabric.

As I said, you can't learn everything from a book. Anatomy books are quite difficult to understand when you're reading them on your own with no professor to guide you, while museum exhibitions are easily accessible because they are designed for the masses. That's the whole point. You want to educate as many people as you can--that means presenting something that is understandable to someone who is 9 or someone who is 99, or someone who is an art student or someone who is a physical therapist.

A lot of people are interested in art--why aren't art history books bestsellers? Because it's easier for people to go to a museum where they can see it presented in such a way that they can understand, and they can do so without having a professor lecture to them. Yes, it's far more interesting and entertaining, but just because it's entertaining doesn't mean it doesn't have educational value.

_Pm

P.S. -- By the way, what is it with YOUR fixation on the pregnant woman with the womb and fetus showing? Or is that the only controversy you have to refer to since that's all you've heard about, and you haven't even seen the exhibition for yourself? You remind me of Rudy Giuliani and his uproar about the Brooklyn Museum and Chris Ofili's artwork with elephant dung and porn mag cutouts.

The people who haven't seen these "controversial" works make the most noise without knowing ANYTHING behind the exhibits and draw even more attention and encourage more people to go to the exhibit just to see what all the noise is about.

__
"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[Shotgun 1]

Quote

I read about this exhibit in my local paper today, and the first thing I thought of was a movie I rented for the first time just about a month ago, called Anatomy, in which a promising medical student discovers that some of her peers and instructors are part of a secret, anti-Hippocratic society that experiments on living subjects (victims), and also "plastinates" them to be put on display later.

So, was this movie any good? It came up when I was searching for something else on Amazon and it looked sort of interesting...

I saw the Body Worlds exhibit in L.A. I though it was very interesting and educational. In addition to the woman and her fetus, they also had preserved fetuses from all the different stages of pregnancy; I think something like that would be very important for people to see before deciding whether to have an abortion or not.

The Body Worlds 2 exhibit is showing right now, and I'm hoping to go see it before it ends in two weeks (though it doesn't look like I will have time).

I put my name in the box as a possible donor, and I have not heard anything from them... So I am guessing that they now have quite a few people interested in donating their bodies. Though I wouldn't be surprised if he originally had to get bodies from prisons or from homeless people. (Perhaps not the most ethical thing to do - IF that is what he did - but I really doubt that he killed anyone or anything like that.)

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

Though I wouldn't be surprised if he originally had to get bodies from prisons or from homeless people.

Let's end that rumor quickly. That is not the case.

Every body used in the exhibit was donated explicitly for that purpose.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Shotgun 1]

Quote

Quote

Though I wouldn't be surprised if he originally had to get bodies from prisons or from homeless people.

Let's end that rumor quickly. That is not the case.

How do you know that is not the case? I honestly don't know either way. I have read lots of stuff about the guy, and I really doubt he had a lot of people offering to donate their bodies to him when he first got started (though I feel fairly certain that all of the bodies used in the exhibit are bodies that were donated).

[AndyMan 7]

Quote

How do you know that is not the case? I honestly don't know either way.

Because it's stated on a prominent sign as you walk into the exhibit, and nobody has made any serious accusations to the contrary, with the exception of the fetuses. Obviously they didn't give permission, but their mothers did.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Shotgun 1]

Quote

Quote

How do you know that is not the case? I honestly don't know either way.

Because it's stated on a prominent sign as you walk into the exhibit, and nobody has made any serious accusations to the contrary

That sign is referring to the bodies used in the exhibit, not every body that he has ever worked on.

I have seen several accusations against doctors who apparently sent him dead bodies that were unclaimed by anyone (bodies of people who had never given consent for their bodies to be used for that purpose). Of course, von Hagens may have received these bodies without knowing that there was no consent (he testified that he was "not involved with nor responsible for the notification of families"), but I do think there is a chance that this has happened at some point in his career.

[TPO 0]

OK, I have a few things to say about this topic. I'm not trying to force my views on anyone here, or say that people aren't entitled to their opinions, but I'd like to offer mine, as someone who has a more vested interest in this area. This is my first post here – so hello everyone!
Firstly, I’d like to commend those who have actually been to see the Body Worlds Exhibition – I believe that your points are much more valid than those who are commenting on von Hagen’s work – those who without ever so much as having laid eyes on the bodies in question, seem to be able to speak of their feelings towards them. You are never going to know how something that like will affect you, unless you actually give it chance to affect you. And yes, I have seen the exhibition. I saw it in London some years back now, when it was at the height of its scandal.

At that point in my life, I was studying to be a forensic scientist. I had assisted on a many a post-mortem. At this point in my life, I am a practising forensic scientist; I now attend scenes of crimes and still assist post-mortems. I have probably seen more humans (adults, and children) in more states of "mutilation" than most. What you see at the exhibition, is the end product. There isn’t a spectator’s galley to see what actually happens to the bodies – but you can go to a post-mortem and witness the sights, the sounds and the smells in glorious technicolour. To view the "mutilation" in process, is far worse than seeing the end product of von Hagens’ work. Even in his ‘Anatomy for Beginners’ series, the bodies were at least part-plastinised.

Ying, I think your argument found itself on shaky ground at the start, when you said that "the body once hosted conscious beings". Yep, once. They once hosted them. But no longer. "The physical manifestations of people who are no more" look a whole lot worse when they are decomposing in the ground, or burning at a crematorium. This Victorian attitude of the glorious death is so far from the truth. To ‘rot or roast’ is not a pretty sight – I can say this as I have seen numerous examples. I think to be able to retain the full physical glory you once had in life, is much more poetic - if you're into that kind of thing. Embalming you know, is only a temporary fix, reserved usually for open-coffin funerals, or for extended periods of time between death and burial. So if you think being embalmed and then buried is a good way to keep your ‘physical manifestation’, you’d be wrong. You’ll go the way of the goo soon enough.

Human anatomy is not so well known – not if you think you can learn it by looking at incredibly complicated books. It has been accepted, that the plastination process gives a unique insight to the human body – insights which may not otherwise be available to us. How else could you view the fragile structure of the complete circulation structure, in its entirety and not intermingled within the complexity if the human body – with sloppy organs and blood and other fluids free-flowing? Have you ever seen inside a ‘fresh’ human body? Be it post mortems or surgery? It is a messy job, and it amazes me how specialists can know their way around the body, and then consider the sharp utensils needed for dissections, whilst working in a slippery environment, it can actually be quite a dangerous job. The plastinated bodies have been dried out, and the structures made rigid, so manipulation is not only easier, but significantly less problematic! I think you’ll find his specimens are being used in anatomy lessons – which I would have thought you’d like – it means less dead people are getting ‘mutilated’ to learn about such things (such things you claim are already well known.)

As for recommending the process, well it’s a personal choice. You have to decide and sign the forms if you want to be a part of his work. You can also retract your offer, should you change your mind. Most often, after the ‘Nazi-esque skinning’ you cannot tell who the person is. Certainly not in the face. And besides, not all his works feature in his exhibitions, so your relative may not be on public display, they may be being used as teaching materials for the doctors of tomorrow, who may well save your life later on down the line. I’m sure you won’t mind "being ripped to pieces" if you require invasive surgery to save your life. This is no more ripping to pieces than the dissections for plastination. What’s more, the bodies aren’t going to be affected by rusty/blunt blades or MRSA superbugs or un-cleanliness...etc.

The Tsunami tragedy and the BW Exhibition are worlds apart. A plastinated body neither smells, nor feels like a dead body. Particularly those that have been submerged and decomposing in water, and then torn apart by sheer force, to boot. They look like mannequins; they feel like mannequins – plastination is an excellent term for his process, because that is exactly how they appear. I found nothing disturbing about the bodies. I believe von Hagens could have quite easily not told the world he was working on dead bodies, because that is not how they strike you. I wouldn’t have said they were ‘real bodies’, had I not known. And so what if they have been skinned? They were long dead before it happened. So the skinning, shouldn’t conjure up images of torture and Nazi experiments, because that was nothing like what had happened.

I am pleased that you like the idea of peoples’ lungs on show. Although slightly hypocritical, it shows the hope that really; you understand what the exhibition is about. But I’m intrigued to know why you don’t find that offensive? Where do you think the lungs come from? Not live people who are just temporarily donating them to make a quick point and then they get put back from whence they came. And guess what? In post-mortems, the organs aren’t put back neatly and most often, they have been dissected and parts retained – some never get returned. If you’re lucky, they’ll be popped in a bin liner and put in your hollowed-out torso. Or they just go in loose, with a bit padding for show. Keeping your body whole and plastinised, isn’t sounding too bad after all.

What von Hagens is doing is not evil – its educational and enlightening. You should visit his website and read what the aims of the exhibition are. If you go visit the exhibition, you’ll see that those aims are achieved. You just have to go with open eyes, and an open mind.

[dropoutdave 0]

And we have a winner!!!!

------------------------------------------------------
May Contain Nut traces......

[ying 0]

Craichead, TPO; if you assume that watching Von Hagens’ exhibition is a good lesson then seeing a rottening body must be at least equally good. I’d say that a swollen corpse is even better as a source of knowledge because it’s authentic. Real bodies don’t look the way the clean, dry and scentless objects presented on the exibition look like. So in fact Von Hagens offers a scientific fake. And before Craichead misunderstands something again let me stress that both the Body Worlds and death-driven tourism are repulsive to me.


Craichead; OK, so you’ve studied biology and so on. But how many of the Body Worlds exhibition viewers have? The majority or just a few of them? Without your knowledge, would you be able to fully appreciate the complexity of the human body? I don’t think so. And that’s what i meant.


Craichead, TPO; You write about the educational valours; but why educate everybody about everything? Don’t get me wrong – everybody should have access to education, but do you really believe that most people who come to watch the Body Worlds do it because they want to LEARN something? I don’t think so. As i said, the main attracting factor here is the fact that the exhibition is shocking. People come to watch the macabra. Learning is only a side effect. If it occurs at all. And talking about learning; why not educate people about constructing explosives? Afterall it can be extremely useful – especially when you need to professionally destroy something, for instance an old building you want to get rid of to build a new one. Or when you’re interested in mining. Or in modeling metal tubes and pipes. Wonder why Chuck Palahniuk’s book Fight Club was censored. All those domestic methods of producing nitroglicerine or napalm he mentiones are also quite educational. And how about the advanced combat techniques – they can also prove helpful especially in the era of terrorist attacks. The ability to kill a nasty terrorist with one hit can save hundreads of lives, right? So exactly WHY the access to such knowledge is limited if people want to possess it?

There is nothing inapropriate making a body or its parts available for the scientific purposes if the person to whom the body belonged had nothing against such proceder. But making a show for the masses out of it and turning it into a profitable business IS inapropriate. Euphemistically speaking. Human body as a public exibit is something i cannot and will never accept.

I’m affraid that it’s not enough that something is educational. Everything can be educational. Nazi experiments in Auschwitz also were. Afterall, if not for them we wouldn’t have probably known what are the effects of making a human being a phenol injection. Or the concentration camps in Northern Korea. Have you heard about them? They use gas chambers there. They let people in, start pumping in the gas and observe the reactions through the glass roof. They’ve discovered that the families tend to keep together and survive longer. Very scientific and educational, isn’t it :/ Not to mention the ideological and economical experiments in USSR that devoured many many more victims than hitlerism.


Craichead; the corpse of the pregnant woman – it’s simply the most shocking thing for me. That’s why i mentioned it two or three times. It’s true i haven’t been to the exhibition but i’ve read a lot about it and i’ve seen the pictures of those plastinated people. It’s enough for me. I don’t need to see anything more.


TPO; i don’t have any problems with reading long posts so as far as i’m concerned you don’t need to say you’re sorry. Afterall people vistit the forums to read and write, don’t they.

You say that we “are never going to know how something like that will affect us, unless we actually give it chance to affect us”. I disagree. If we assume your logic the conclusion might be that we should all try to at least once rape somebody, commit a murder and conduct one terrorist attack to actually know how we will feel about it. In my humble opinion you don’t have to eat shit to know that you don’t want to have it in your mouth. Would you agree?

Regards,

ying.

[Skyrad 0]

Don't know if you Skydive or not but you write a great post.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

OK Ying, I couldn't resist this post.

Rotting bodies don't bear much resemblance to living ones, and having seen both refridgerated bodies, rotting bodies and Plastistnated ones, I think the latter are closest to living tissue in look. Also the body doesn't really smell inside unless you cut the gut it only smells a little like blood.
When I went to the bodyworlds exhibition there was loads of Nurses and med students not to mention Physios, Radiographers and other Proffesionals Allied to Medicine there. If you read the visitors book theres loads of them. And if you haven't studied anatomy before you go you will defininatly learn something while you are there and maybe its even insipred people to study further.
I saw very few people there who were anything other than fascinated by that which they don't normaly get to see and I saw no one there who seemed in any way shocked.
Your analogy with explosives doesn't work. Teach people about explosives and they can kill people and damage property, teach them about what lays under their skin and they are hardly likely to want to disect themselves.
The human body is used as a public exhibit everyday, in magazines on the TV and in the Movies. Have you ever purchased a fashion magazine? Then you have supported the human body as a public exhibit.
I find your North Korea reference interesting, do you have any proof to back up this claim or is it just a rumour?
The pregnat woman was a work of art, a living memorial. I found the man riding a dead horse far more contraversial.
Actualy Bunny poo is quite nutritious and doesn't taste to bad.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[craichead 0]

Quote

I’d say that a swollen corpse is even better as a source of knowledge because it’s authentic. Real bodies don’t look the way the clean, dry and scentless objects presented on the exibition look like. So in fact Von Hagens offers a scientific fake.

Really? Tell me, what would you learn about the decomposition process of a human body if you were to see one in real life? No labels, no placards, no audio tours, no professor, no forensic scientist friend accompanying you. Could you tell me the approximate time of death? Could you tell me why it swells? At what rate do different organs deteriorate? What happens when the body explodes? What's involved in that process? You think you can learn all of that just by looking at a rotting dead body? Wow, you must have supernatural senses or something.

So if von Hagen's is offering a scientific fake with real bodies, then what good would looking at anatomy books do? Wouldn't anatomy books be considered even "more" fake? By this argument, shouldn't you be against everything that is an illustration, model, photo, or any type of reproduction which you so readily upheld before?

Quote

Craichead; OK, so you’ve studied biology and so on. But how many of the Body Worlds exhibition viewers have? The majority or just a few of them? Without your knowledge, would you be able to fully appreciate the complexity of the human body? I don’t think so. And that’s what i meant.

Craichead, TPO; You write about the educational valours; but why educate everybody about everything? Don’t get me wrong – everybody should have access to education, but do you really believe that most people who come to watch the Body Worlds do it because they want to LEARN something? I don’t think so. As i said, the main attracting factor here is the fact that the exhibition is shocking. People come to watch the macabra. Learning is only a side effect. If it occurs at all.

I don't know how many of them have studied biology to the extent that I have. Neither do you. All I can say is that I went to the exhibit with my husband and his parents, none of whom have the extensive biology education that I have. We all went to the exhibit with an open mind to learn something. That's what museums and their exhibits are for.

They all found the exhibit extremely enlighting, educational and know that the human body is a beautiful, complex, and intricate work that they will never fully understand (I don't think anybody can). But at least they have a better appreciation and insight than before because they had the opportunity to see the exhibit.

Appreciation of something does not require extensive knowledge on the subject--it only requires an open mind. I don't have much education in the way of aerospace and aeronautics, but I certainly have appreciation for the complexities of flight, aircraft design/engineering and development. I've never formally studied an instrument or how to read/play music, but I have great appreciation for all types of music.

Until you interview a good number (100+) of random people who've seen the exhibit, you shouldn't make assumptions about why people go to see it, what their experience was, or what they learned. The people I observed were asking great medical questions to the volunteers (many of whom were physicians, nurses and health care students) stationed throughout the exhibit. Teachers and parents were showing their children that the human body is nothing to be afraid of, demystifying the unknown.

And all of your tripe about learning to make explosives and how to kill terrorists--the information is readily available (just like anatomy books) if you want to learn about it. If enough people want to learn about it, perhaps they can raise the money and convince a museum to create, curate and display an exhibit on it to make it more accessible.

Quote

There is nothing inapropriate making a body or its parts available for the scientific purposes if the person to whom the body belonged had nothing against such proceder. But making a show for the masses out of it and turning it into a profitable business IS inapropriate. Euphemistically speaking. Human body as a public exibit is something i cannot and will never accept.

Would it be inappropriate if people donated their bodies specifically for the show, knowing that tons of money would be made on their plastinated bodies? Also, funeral homes, casket makers, crematoriums and cemetaries all make profitable businesses from death of and for the masses. Is that inappropriate, too?

I hope you never attend plays, sporting events, concerts, and lectures or ever look at magazines, books, photographs, paintings, movies, television, artwork or any other type of media that show the human body because they are all public exhibit of the human body. I guess you don't go to funerals, either, where often times the deceased is on display.

Comparing the education and science in the Body Worlds exhibit to live human torture and experimentation is illogical. ALL of the bodies that von Hagen's has worked on were DEAD. He didn't kill or torture anybody to acquire them. Some he may have gotten without permission from the person (i.e. they were donated anonymously), but who cares? They were DEAD. Nor are we inflicting pain on anyone else by going to an educational exhibit of dissected dead bodies.

So you think he gets them from prisons who conduct human torture and experimentation? Until you can prove that von Hagens actively sought to acquire bodies from political prisons, your argument doesn't stand up to much.

Quote

It’s true i haven’t been to the exhibition but i’ve read a lot about it and i’ve seen the pictures of those plastinated people. It’s enough for me. I don’t need to see anything more.

Clearly you DO need to see something more because you don't have a clue as to what the exhibit shows, how it's displayed, or anything else that is in it. Pictures of the plastinated bodies are no comparison to seeing the exhibit in its entirety--just like looking at pictures in an anatomy book cannot be equivalent to seeing a real body.

What you can't grasp is that the purpose of the exhibit is to educate people about human anatomy and their own bodies. All you can comprehend are your ridiculous assumptions about how the rest of the world thinks and acts. The only thing you're capable of is making intellectually mediocre, uninformed, inflammatory statements...otherwise known as trolling.

Why don't you stop playing "pretend intellectual polemics," and go out to gain some real world experience. Maybe you'd get a clue while you're out there.

_Pm

__
"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[Shotgun 1]

Quote

I saw very few people there who were anything other than fascinated by that which they don't normaly get to see and I saw no one there who seemed in any way shocked.

I agree. My experience was the same when I went to Body Worlds. Most people were taking time to read the educational material that went along with the exhibits (or they had rented the headsets that contained the same information).

I am studying anatomy right now, so the exhibit was very helpful to me. In fact, my teacher has even referred to parts of the exhibit a couple of times while explaining something to me. We also have a cadaver that we use in class, and it is far more helpful in learning about the human body than simply looking at pictures in a book.

[TPO 0]

OK, so here we go again. Ying, I too love a good debate, so as much as I’m not sure I can be bothered to work round some of your ‘unique’ views, I feel I’d best have a go – lest you think you think you’ve gotten your second-degree Polemic victory from me!

I’m not going to argue any further points about the usefulness of the Exhibition – as christelsabine mentioned some posts ago, all the answers have been said. (Yes, I know I still put my tuppence-worth in anyways – couldn’t resist it!)

Oh yes, a rotting body is one Hell of a lesson – if that’s something you want to learn about. If it’s not, then don’t bother. And if it’s not, I’m on your side, cos it’s not a nice thing to experience – unless you have to. Funny how the Exhibition doesn’t deal with what rotting bodies look like. Or not actually, cos that’s not the point of it, right?! And von Hagens does not offer a scientific fake if you ask me – how can you comment so matter-of-factly? You clearly haven’t been to the Exhibition, and I fail to see how you have also seen the ‘real thing’ in which to compare the other thing you haven’t actually seen either, to. And please, before you throw the Tsunami argument out there again, anything you see on TV, doesn’t count. The bodies in the Exhibition do look like real bodies (after all, that is what they are), they just don’t look or smell like rotting ones.

BTW, when I say 'real bodies' I don't mean as in looking like (i.e. in the face) the actual person they were pre-Plastination (see my previous post). The exhibits look like any human body, not the specific person who donated that particular body.

As far as learning goes, well, it seems that the views on here are in favour of learning from the Exhibition. And the funny thing is, if you really want to learn about anything, there is usually a way of doing so. It’s not always going to be world-wide scandalous exhibitions, maybe a case of it’s not what you know, it’s who you know. But then that was before the internet! Most forensic science degrees teach you how to make explosives – sometimes outright, sometimes just by understanding the ingredients and how they work in the first place, and in conjunction with others. That is not to say, that you are going to take that knowledge and start tinkering in your shed – most people have the common sense to stay away from such things. Access to knowledge is in some respects a personal thing, you can either go out of your way to learn about a particular thing, or just be happy not knowing (or caring). Perhaps the reason why von Hagens’ work is not restricted, as it is not seen as dangerous to posses knowledge about your own body. Oh, and if you want to know what a body looks and smells like when rotting, go get yourself a pig and pop it in your back garden in the summer. Then imagine that on a larger scale. That’s what those of us who can’t take a picnic in the grounds of the ‘Body Farm’ do.

For my point about “never going to know how something like that will affect us, unless we actually give it chance to affect us”, the clue was in ‘like that’. ‘Like that’ being an exhibition about what your body looks like and how it functions. It was not about raping or murdering. I think most of us would agree that they don’t need to know how those things will feel – most of us have the sense to know it is wrong. Whether or not you feel remorse for your actions, or enjoy them or repeat them, is something you are never going to truly know, unless you have a pop at it. But I don’t need to know how I will feel after doing such things – nor would I consider myself authoritative enough to try and comment or pass judgement on something I have never actually done.

Funny how you’ve instantly picked negative examples of things to try – are you a virgin? Are you a sky-diver?!

Oh and I don’t need to eat shit to know it tastes bed – it SMELLS like shit!

[ying 0]

To everybody; I’m not saying that what Von Hagens does is the same as Nazi experiments and the like. The examples i presented were to show you that the fact that something is scientific and educational cannot be enough to pronounce it good.


TPO, Craichead; you say that teaching people about human anatomy cannot make any harm. I disagree. If you know where the main blood tracks run it’s enough to sick a kife in them to kill a person within a few seconds. If you know the mechanics of joints it’ll be easier for you to break them and so on. So don’t tell me that the knowledge of anatomy cannot be used to harm people.


Skyrad; i don’t have any evidence that would prove that the concentration camps exist in Northern Korea. But i’ve seen a documentary, i guess it was made by BBC, in which a former camp officer who’s escaped from Korea talked about what was going on inside the camp he worked in. In addition to that i’ve read some articles based on the human rights organisations reports. I can’t give you any internet links because i don’t know them. But if you’re interested in the subject try to contact Amnesty International. They should have suitable materials.


To everybody; I do accept the fact that many Proffesionals Allied to Medicine visit the exibition. But that’s not the thing. Would you say that they are the majority of the visitors? I do accept the fact that it is possible to learn a lot watching the Body Worlds but would you say that the majority of people who come there do it because of the thirst for knowledge? It’s interesting how you stubbornly ignore the fact that there’s a lot of people who come there mainly to see the skinned and dissected corpses. Or perhaps you will try to tell me that this hasn’t been happening?


Skyrad, Craichead; as far as human body being a popular exhibit all over the world is concerned; you’re right of course, but that’s not exactly what i meant. I thought of DEAD human bodies and i was sure such interpretation would be obvious from the context. What you wrote means it is not that obvious. OK. I understand. Should have been more precise. Let me repeat then – corpses as exhibits and making money out of showig them is something i find extremely disgusting.


TPO; I’ve read your first post once again today and i’ve noticed that i didn’t answer one of your arguments. You wrote that in your opinion to be able to retain the full physical glory you once had in life, is much more poetic (than rotting or roasting). I understand human fear of the process in which they disapper from this world but is being skinned and dissected really retaining the full physical glory you mentioned?

I see you’re familiar with the suicidal thread ;) But neither here nor there nor anywhere have i said that my views are unique. I’ve only said they’re different than yours. If they weren’t different the discussion wouldn’t last long.

I don’t mean to sound matter-of-factly. I just express my opinion. I don’t try to speak for the whole world if that’s what you mean.

You say that it seems that the views on here are in favour of learning from the Exhibition. Hmmm. You out-number me that’s for sure. I am aware that if i don’t stop making excrement related comparisons you’re likely to think that it’s some kind of obsession for me but two times ain’t not the obsession yet so let me tell you that basing your argument on the fact that it’s the majority’s view is like saying: eat shit – billions of flies cannot possibly wrong ;)

You wrote: “I don’t need to know how I will feel after doing such things (rape murder, etc.) – nor would I consider myself authoritative enough to try and comment or pass judgement on something I have never actually done.”
Hmmm. That’s interesting. So you actually say that you DO NOT consider yourself authorative enough to say that RAPE, MURDER and TERRORIST ATTACKS are EVIL??? Does this mean you are uncapable of telling good from evil? Or maybe you’re an extreme relativist?

You ask whether i am a skydiver; well, i’ve jumped a few times, i’ve got a FAI licence and even the ULC’s Certificate of Qualification of the Aviation Presonnel Member, so i’d say i am a skydiver, but then you could argue that i’m not since i made my last jump in September 2004 because then the seazon ended and winter begun, so maybe i can’t call myself a skydiver until i pass the KWT (Theoretical Knowledge Test) and sucessfully perform during the KTS (Jump Technique Verification) :) I’m not sure when i’ll do this because despite the astronomical spring the snow hasn’t melted yet, the air is pretty chilly and drunk white bears with kalashnikovs and cheap cigarettes in their teeth still wander the streets of our capital. But anyway, is it really important whether i jump or not?

You also aks if i am a virgin :) My dear TPO, WHY do you want to know this? :) I must admit that my imagination fails me at this point and i can’t see HOW my alleged virginity is supposed to be relevant in our discussion. Despite of that, i’ll try to answer you but first you must tell me what kind of virginity you precisely mean - physical, mental or theoretical? ;) You may think that it’s splitting hairs but virginity is in fact a very complex problem. Can a woman be called a virgin if she hasn’t have sex with anybody but has experienced orgasms during masturbation? Or if a man has made love to her but hasn’t penetrated her vagina with his penis? Or if she has had sex “only” with another woman? Or if she has had sex with a woman and there has been a vibrator involved? Or if she has had the classical vaginal sex with a man but her hymen hasn’t been fully broken? Or if she has had sex with various people but never came? Or if she has had sex and has had some orgasm but never actually loved any of her lovers? Or if no-one has ever made love to her but she happens to be an oral sex expert? And so on and so forth. I could go on like this for hours. So what exactly you meant asking whether i’m a virgin? ;)


Craichead; do i detect impatience in your last post? Calm down – we’re just having a nice polite conversation here. You say that what i do is trolling. Ever heard of the right to express one’s thoughts freely? I’m asking because you seem to be quite unhappy about the fact that i say what i think. Do you call a troll EVERY person who doesn’t agree with you? I might say that what YOU wrote was meant to cause a negative responce in me. Calling my posts “intellectually mediocre, uninformed, inflammatory statements” surely is far from being neutral. And yet i don’t call you a troll. I strongly suggest you rethink your attitude.

You ask what one can learn from a rotting corpse. Well, as a matter of fact, quite a lot. Such a sight can, though of course it doesn’t have to be an inspiration to ponderings concerning for instance the fragility of life, sense of our existence and the afterlife. It can lead to studying biology, anatomy, philozophy or whatever. But OK, you insist that the labels, placards, notes and so on play the crucial role in making the Body Worlds so valuable. Uh-oh. The CRUCIAL role? Hmm. So you actually say that if not for that “additional” stuff you would learn little or nothing? Well, if so then what’s the purpose of exhibiting all those poor bodies? Wouldn’t 1:1 realistic models be equally good?


To everybody; Von Hagens’ exhibition is like pornography. It’s disgusting but still some people prefer it to idealized and horeographically sophisticated love scenes from non-porn movies. It’s real but at the same time it’s fake because you rarely can see dissected people playing basketball or riding horses. The sight one can see on the exhibition would normally be connected with pain and suffering. Have you ever thought about it? Perhaps blunting people’s sensitivity by showing them such things and taking mutilated bodies out of context of pain and suffering is not a positive thing afterall? Perhaps treating corpses as exhibits, even if people they once belonged to agreed for that, is not such a good idea in the end?


Craichead; You wrote that the funeral houses, casket makers, cementaries and crematories make money on death. Yes, but it’s not the same as what Von Hagens does. Of course there is something macabric in a guy who gives you a catalogue of caskets and it’s in a way awful that some people abuse the love people had for their relatives who are gone but imagine what would happen if not for the funeral houses and so on. What i mean is that their existence and activity is necessary. And Von Hagens’ exhibition is not.

About appreciation; it surely is possible to appreciate something you know very little of. But don’t you think that the appreciation of an expert has a slightly different value than the one of a laic? Let me illustrate it with a simple example. Let’s say you watch a movie from your last skydive with couple of people. Afterwards a guy who’s just found out that a sport like skydiving exists tells you you were marvelous. And then a guy who’s jumped 10 000 times states you did a really good job and that you have an unusual talent. Would these two opinions be of the same value to you?

Regards,

ying.

[craichead 0]

Quote

To everybody; I’m not saying that what Von Hagens does is the same as Nazi experiments and the like. The examples i presented were to show you that the fact that something is scientific and educational cannot be enough to pronounce it good.

Interesting...what was this about, then?

Quote

You say that seeing a skinned body is not a thrill for you? Well, let me then congratulete you – you have a sensitivity of a brick. If i see a body without its skin i think of suffering, torture and Nazi experiments. Oh, by the way, Von Hagens’ father was a Nazi, what an interesting coincidence, don’t you think?

Quote

TPO, Craichead; you say that teaching people about human anatomy cannot make any harm.

Actually, no, I didn't say that. I think it unlikely that the knowledge gained at the Body Worlds exhibition would be used for such purposes, though. Possible, but unlikely.

Quote

To everybody; I do accept the fact that many Proffesionals Allied to Medicine visit the exibition. But that’s not the thing. Would you say that they are the majority of the visitors? I do accept the fact that it is possible to learn a lot watching the Body Worlds but would you say that the majority of people who come there do it because of the thirst for knowledge? It’s interesting how you stubbornly ignore the fact that there’s a lot of people who come there mainly to see the skinned and dissected corpses. Or perhaps you will try to tell me that this hasn’t been happening?

I wouldn't say one way or the other because I honestly don't know. I haven't taken a random sampling of 100+ people who've been to the exhibit and interviewed them to find out who they are, what they already know, what they do for their professions, why they went, what their experiences were, and what they learned. NEITHER HAVE YOU. You're still making (ridiculous and uninformed) assumptions about the way these exhibition visitors think and act.

Quote

I don’t try to speak for the whole world if that’s what you mean.

Well, apparently you are trying to speak for the whole world seeing as how you're bold enough to make these over-generalised assumptions about why most of the people go to see the exhibit.

Quote

Craichead; do i detect impatience in your last post? Calm down – we’re just having a nice polite conversation here. You say that what i do is trolling. Ever heard of the right to express one’s thoughts freely? I’m asking because you seem to be quite unhappy about the fact that i say what i think. Do you call a troll EVERY person who doesn’t agree with you? I might say that what YOU wrote was meant to cause a negative responce in me. Calling my posts “intellectually mediocre, uninformed, inflammatory statements” surely is far from being neutral. And yet i don’t call you a troll. I strongly suggest you rethink your attitude.

Yes, I have very little patience for people who create assumptions with no basis in fact and are clueless because of self-imposed ignorance. Aforementioned people who wander various forums to "freely express their thoughts" while talking out of their asses are typically referred to as trolls. I've disagreed with a lot of people on this forum, and I haven't called any of them trolls. I still strongly suggest that you get a clue.

Quote

But OK, you insist that the labels, placards, notes and so on play the crucial role in making the Body Worlds so valuable. Uh-oh. The CRUCIAL role? Hmm. So you actually say that if not for that “additional” stuff you would learn little or nothing? Well, if so then what’s the purpose of exhibiting all those poor bodies? Wouldn’t 1:1 realistic models be equally good?

I believe those things are quite useful in facilitating education when paired with real examples. It does make a huge difference when you have someone or something to guide you in learning, doesn't it? The purpose of the exhibition, in its entirety: bodies, notes, placards and all, is to show you how things authentically look in your body, to teach you what the parts are and how they function. Surely you've heard of Gestalt theory and how it applies to human learning?

Realistic 1:1 models would be what you referred to as a "scientific fake," and they will never be equally good. "Realistic" will never equal REAL. If you truly believe "1:1 realistic models" were equally good, would you go to a doctor who learned purely from realistic (but fake) models and textbooks?

And why are they "poor" bodies? If they were donated with consent, why do you care? They're dead. It's just flesh and bones. They are no longer sentient beings.

Quote

The sight one can see on the exhibition would normally be connected with pain and suffering.

"Normally" by whose standards? Are your opinions and thoughts supposed to dictate how everybody else should think and feel when they see something like that?

Quote

About appreciation; it surely is possible to appreciate something you know very little of. But don’t you think that the appreciation of an expert has a slightly different value than the one of a laic? Let me illustrate it with a simple example. Let’s say you watch a movie from your last skydive with couple of people. Afterwards a guy who’s just found out that a sport like skydiving exists tells you you were marvelous. And then a guy who’s jumped 10 000 times states you did a really good job and that you have an unusual talent. Would these two opinions be of the same value to you?

I'm glad for the appreciation, period. I'm happy that the newbie is excited about the sport, and I'm happy that the experienced jumper has recognized my skill. The most important point here is that they both recognize that there is something to be appreciated, and they're not going to ignore or denounce the experience whether they know very little or a lot about skydiving.

As far as the "value" of the appreciation is concerned, that can only be opined by the one it's bestowed upon, not the person who gives it, nor the rest of the world who hears it. If both of the viewers were to give advice, that is an entirely different circumstance where knowledge and experience makes an important difference, and the value of the critique can certainly be weighed.

_Pm

__
"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[billvon 2,990]

>you say that teaching people about human anatomy cannot make
> any harm. I disagree. If you know where the main blood tracks run
> it’s enough to sick a kife in them to kill a person within a few
> seconds. If you know the mechanics of joints it’ll be easier for you
> to break them and so on. So don’t tell me that the knowledge of
> anatomy cannot be used to harm people.

Well, that's a silly angle. I learned far more about how to hurt people in Tae Kwon Do than I ever did dissecting cadavers. From that point of view, learning a martial art is far more 'dangerous' than seeing a cadaver. Heck, learning baseball is more dangerous in that way; once you know how to use that bat . . .

>To everybody; I do accept the fact that many Proffesionals Allied to
> Medicine visit the exibition. But that’s not the thing. Would you say
> that they are the majority of the visitors? I do accept the fact that it
> is possible to learn a lot watching the Body Worlds but would you
> say that the majority of people who come there do it because of the
> thirst for knowledge?

More curiosity. I often go to plays, shows, exhibits, galleries etc not knowing what to expect. Sometimes I learn something and sometimes it sucks. Sometimes it's interesting and sometimes it's deadly boring. But you can't know unless you go.

>It’s interesting how you stubbornly ignore the fact that there’s a lot
> of people who come there mainly to see the skinned and dissected
> corpses. Or perhaps you will try to tell me that this hasn’t been
> happening?

I'm sure it does happen, in the same way some people will see Saving Private Ryan just to see the gore. Different people expect different things, and take different things away from their experience.

>Let me repeat then – corpses as exhibits and making money out
>of showig them is something i find extremely disgusting.

One of the great things about this particular show is that you can decide not to go. It's not like a picture on a highway billboard that you can't ignore.

>Hmm. So you actually say that if not for that “additional” stuff you
> would learn little or nothing? Well, if so then what’s the purpose of
> exhibiting all those poor bodies? Wouldn’t 1:1 realistic models be
> equally good?

I don't think so. I've never seen an anatomic model that compared to an actual dissection. Too much has to be left out. We're really pretty complex inside.

>The sight one can see on the exhibition would normally be
>connected with pain and suffering.

So are 99% of the action movies out there. So is most comedy, and most drama. Pain and suffering are as much a part of what we are as are pleasure and happiness.

>Have you ever thought about it? Perhaps blunting people’s sensitivity
> by showing them such things and taking mutilated bodies out of
> context of pain and suffering is not a positive thing afterall?
> Perhaps treating corpses as exhibits, even if people they once
> belonged to agreed for that, is not such a good idea in the end?

I don't think it's any more intrinsically good or evil than, say a textbook or a CPR dummy. Sure, you could argue that a CPR dummy teaches people that everyone is made of plastic, but you'd have to be pretty messed up to believe something like that. You could also argue that a CPR dummy could make people think of the pain of a heart attack, but again - a good option for people prone to such feelings is to avoid the CPR dummy.

[Skyrad 0]

OK Ying, I was going to respond to your post and point out how silly an argument the one about learning anatomy is dangerous because you know where to stick the knife in is, but no... This is far more interesting...

Quote

You also aks if i am a virgin :) My dear TPO, WHY do you want to know this? :) I must admit that my imagination fails me at this point and i can’t see HOW my alleged virginity is supposed to be relevant in our discussion. Despite of that, i’ll try to answer you but first you must tell me what kind of virginity you precisely mean - physical, mental or theoretical? ;) You may think that it’s splitting hairs but virginity is in fact a very complex problem. Can a woman be called a virgin if she hasn’t have sex with anybody but has experienced orgasms during masturbation? Or if a man has made love to her but hasn’t penetrated her vagina with his penis? Or if she has had sex “only” with another woman? Or if she has had sex with a woman and there has been a vibrator involved? Or if she has had the classical vaginal sex with a man but her hymen hasn’t been fully broken? Or if she has had sex with various people but never came? Or if she has had sex and has had some orgasm but never actually loved any of her lovers? Or if no-one has ever made love to her but she happens to be an oral sex expert? And so on and so forth. I could go on like this for hours. So what exactly you meant asking whether i’m a virgin? ;)

Stuff the bodies let talk about your love life it sounds far more interesting, and I'm curious when you say

Quote

I could go on like this for hours

which of the above acts were you talking about exactly?

And where is your Avatar?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[billvon 2,990]

I just saw Body Worlds last night, and I found it really interesting. Not just from a scientific perspective, but from what people were saying and doing there.

First off, there were a lot of kids there, and they weren't nearly as squeamish as some of the adults. There was a lot of "Wow! Look how small your heart is! It's like all muscle though." It was very cool to watch kids actually get excited about learning stuff like that. Some of those kids are going to leave there thinking that being a doctor could be a pretty interesting profession.

> If you know where the main blood tracks run it’s enough to sick a kife
>in them to kill a person within a few seconds.

The opposite is very much true. If you know what a smoker's lung looks like after they die, you might just realize how much damage smoking does. If you see kidneystones stuck in ureters, you might just start drinking more water to avoid that (looked painful.) Comparing a normal and diseased heart might just inspire people to get off the couch for a while. And it's easy to think that drinking a lot doesn't hurt you until you see cirrhosis of the liver.

And there's a lot to be said for knowing how your body works. There were several exhibits of prosthetic joints there, including several that had been in place for years. People are going to be able to make better decisions about their own care if they know how and where something like that is used.

[Shotgun 1]

This is not completely relevant to this thread, but I just saw this in the news:

Quote

Two Women Sought in Theft of Fetus

Wed Mar 30, 6:36 AM ET

U.S. National - AP

By ROBERT JABLON, Associated Press Writer

LOS ANGELES - Police are searching for two women who they believe made off with a preserved 13-week-old fetus from an exhibit at the California Science Center.

The fetus, infused with polymers in a process called plastination to prevent decay, was part of a traveling display entitled "Body Worlds 2: The Anatomical Exhibition of Real Human Bodies."

A surveillance video showed the suspects removing the fetus from an unlocked display case on the third floor between 2 a.m. and 3 a.m. Saturday during the round-the-clock closing weekend of the exhibit, police Detective Jimmy Render said Tuesday.

Other people were inside the room during the heist but may not have been aware of it, he said.

"There's no indication at this time of the motives behind the stealing of the plastinated fetus. ... There had been no threats," the detective said.

"Body Worlds 2" and its predecessor, "Body Worlds," use plastinated human bodies and organs to provide information on human anatomy, illnesses and issues such as smoking and obesity. The displays, which feature bodies in natural or whimsical poses, such as playing chess or riding a skateboard, have drawn critical and public praise.

The theft was the first ever involving the "Body Worlds" displays, which have been seen by millions of people worldwide, and by about 875,000 at the California Science Center alone. It also was the first from the science center since it opened in 1998, the museum said.

"We are deeply concerned and disappointed by the theft of this invaluable and irreplaceable specimen," Angelina Whalley, director of the Institute for Plastination, said in a statement.

"How can somebody do this ... it's such a disrespect," she said.

[craichead 0]

Oh, it looks like ying went to see the show, after all!

_Pm

__
"Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC)

[Nightingale 0]

I heard about this on the news today. It's so sad. A woman donated the fetus many years ago (probably from a miscarriage) so people could learn from it, and someone has shown a complete lack of respect for her wishes and for the scientific community by stealing it.

[ying 0]

Sorry for the delay, i’ve been quite busy recently.

Skyrad :)))) My love life? Sure! What do you want to know?
Nah, just kidding. You couldn’t seriously suspect me of being such an exhibicionist, could you. I discuss the details of my love life only with my lover. But if you want a general discussion i have nothing against. However i’d suggest swiching to e-mail. Or PMs. And those ambiguous cases i mentioned. Revealing if any of them concerns my person would spoil the fun. Decide for yourself. Or you can make up your own version if you find it interesting. Use your imagination. It’s the Internet afterall – untill we’re here you can mistake me for everything you want me to be, without slightest consequences (i.e. disappointment, health threat, etc) :) And anyway, perceptions have always been more important than the so called Truth ;) Cheers :)


Craichead; some posts ago i wrote that seeing mutuilated bodies “makes me THINK of pain, sufferind and Nazi experiments”. It is NOT the same as saying that what Von Hagens does actually IS like the Nazi experiments. And don’t you try the Method Of The Double Implication on me. It’s very spectacular but not always effective. And this not always happens to be our case.

You say that the knowledge gained on the Exhibition is “unlikely to be used for the purpose of harming people”. That’s interesting. HOW can you know?

You write that i keep making ridiculous and uninformed assumptions about the way the exhibition visitors think and act and you suggest that testing at least 100+ people is needed to state what is the reason for which they go to see Body Worlds. Do you REALLY think that people would admit that they came to see the macabra? Regardless of the true motives, most people would say that they wanted to learn something about their bodies. Are you authentically naive enough to think that people usually tell the truth in such situations or you just pretend? Random testing is useless. But it’s enough you remind yourself the basic laws concerning the behaviour of the masses and everything becomes more than clear. With Body Worlds it is exactly the same mechanism as with the accidents and emotionally-pornographic talk-shows. People are strangely fascinated by them. If Von Hagens used 1:1 models the exhibition would never draw such numbers of visitors.

I repeat, i don’t try to talk for the whole world. Self-confidence is completely irrelevant here. But to tell the truth, i consulted a few people and their opinion is the same as mine. Anyway it’s very interesting. Perhaps whole this discussion proves that the Slovians have a different approach to death than Americans and the English?

I disagree that i create assumptions with no basis. I’ve read about the Exhibition. I’ve seen many pictures of those plastinated people. I’m aware of the fact that Von Hagens tries to make it all look very scientific. And still i have a strong feeling that what he does is VERY not OK.

Have you ever heard about the circumcision 2 million girls and young women in Africa are subjected to every year? You probably think it’s a bad thing. On what basis? Have you ever witnessed the process? And yet i’d bet you think it’s sick. Why? Because as i wrote before, you don’t have to eat shit to know you don’t want to have it in your mouth. In other words, humans possess the gift of IMAGINATION. They are capable of conducting a thinking process and forming conclusions. This allows them not to try everything by themselves.

As far as doctors are concerned; they have to, among others, pass the prosectorium to get their degrees so the argument that if not for Von Hagens’ show they would never have the opportunity to see authentic dissectected corpses is pretty silly.

I don’t agree that dead bodies are just flesh and bones. I mean, technically they are. But WHY you think such sophisticated funeral traditions were invented and are still practised all around the world? Why do we wash those dead bodies, dress them and so on? Why don’t we get rid of them as soon as their owners are dead? Why don’t we make soap out of them? Afterall everybody knows that the best soap is made of human fat. This way the useless meat would contribute to those who are still alive, right?

Body is a physical manifestation of a person and the only connection the consious part of us has with the outside world. It’s an extremely intricate tool and at the same your closest friend (unless of course it gives you a hard time which of course also happenes) – the only thing you really own from the very begining to the very end. I could write a whole essay about it but if you don’t feel it instinctively all explanations will be useless.

When i wrote that “the sight one can see on the exhibition would normally be connected with pain and suffering” i meant what is written in the following sentences. You took it out of context. “Normally” means in the world we live in.

I don’t agree that the value of the appreciation, can only be opined by the one it's bestowed upon; first of all, i can make opinions on anything i like. Second of all, i didn’t think of whether those two opinions are important to you; i thought rather of their RELIABILITY. Perhaps the example wasn’t good. Imagine a laic who sees you performing headdown. He watches it for a while and say, what a dull crap. And then he sees an AFF student who’s struggling hard to regain his lost stability and states, now THIS is good. See what i mean? An opinion of an expert must be more valuable because an expert knows what he’s talking about.


Billvon; you wrote:

> learning a martial art is far more 'dangerous' than seeing a cadaver. Heck, learning baseball is more dangerous in that way; once you know how to use that bat . . .

Yes, you’re right. But you seem to ignore the fact that martial arts’ efficiency is based on the knowledge of anatomy. Besides, even if we assume that the knowledge of martial arts is more dangerous than what you learn seeing the Body Worlds, it still doesn’t mean that what you learn seeing Body Worlds is not dangerous.

I guess that showing violence in an abstract, poetical way is art but a dangerous one. However it’s not the same as Von Hagens exhibition which shows you mutilated corpses posed as if they were alive and at the same time draws your attention to how they are build and makes you neglect thinking about what would happen if you tried to make a living person look like that. Perhaps watching such sights and deliberately overcoming the natural responce to them is not such a good idea?