Shotgun 1 #76 May 15, 2005 QuoteCan you guarantee that the exhibition does not have a negative impact on the visitors’ psyches, No, I can't guarantee that, just as I can't guarantee that most other things in this world will not have a negative impact on others' psyches. I don't know about other people, but reading the daily news has a lot more of a negative impact on my psyche than the Body Worlds exhibit did (especially since the Body Worlds exhibit did not have a negative impact on me). QuoteCan you guarantee that the exhibition does not encourage treating living people like objects uniting meat and bones and that nobody will try to dissect a cat, a dog or perhaps even a human being just to see whether they really look so funny inside? I think that anyone who will do sick things after seeing the exhibit probably would be doing sick things anyway. Like the boys who put firecrackers in the cat's butt after seeing a "Beavis and Butthead" episode; I think those kids already had issues with not knowing right from wrong and would have found something nasty to do even without the suggestion from a television show. As for the dissecting, well I recently dissected a cat and am now working on dissecting a human. I would be doing this whether I saw the exhibit or not. And if you knew me then you would know that I am one of the least likely people in this world to ever harm another person. And I will also admit that beyond the educational benefits of doing this, I do find it interesting in terms of pure curiosity. Of course, I know that this man died of natural causes and that he willingly donated his body for education, and I know that his skin was not removed until he was dead... So I don't think of pain and suffering when I look at him because nothing about his body suggests that (which was also the case with the bodies at the exhibit). QuoteFinally, having in mind the well known fact that sex and guts always sell well, can you be sure that it’s the scientific benefits that make the exhibition so attractive to the masses? No, I can't be sure of that either, and I honestly don't care. Some will go for the educational benefits, and some will go for the macabre. What does it matter? The consent form that I received for donating your body to Von Hagens specifically says that your body may be used as an art exhibit and that some visitors to his exhibit go there to see his "art" rather than for education. And having been to both of the exhibits, I would say that some of the bodies did seem to be displayed more for artistic purposes and some were displayed for education. I can even understand that some people may have a problem with that, but I personally don't. But even so, I wouldn't consider myself to be callous or indifferent towards death. Obviously you see some sort of moral problem with the work of Von Hagens, and that is understandable even though I don't agree with you. But the good thing for you is that no one will force you to see the exhibit or to donate your body for plastination, so it really has no effect on you. The bodies that are in the exhibit were most likely all donated with their consent, and that is their right to have their remains used in whatever fashion they chose before death, so there is no reason for you to be concerned about them either (unless of course you wish to inflict your morals on everyone else). I suppose you could argue that your perceived effect that the exhibit has on the masses will indirectly affect you, and perhaps you are correct, but hey that's life... If you feel that strongly about it, you could always get a group of people together and try to get it shut down; usually the majority gets to decide what is ok or not ok for everyone else to do... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craichead 0 #77 May 16, 2005 QuoteThe word “standards” was used in the context of people who are alive. It concerned an impossibility of skinning and gutting a LIVING and conscious person without causing pain. Now you will surely quote the two previous sentences and comment that the exhibits are dead... ripping pieces of what someone says out of context is a nasty habit. Yup, it is a nasty habit--you've done it yourself. It's a nasty habit to apply what you think of skinning and gutting LIVE people to skinning and gutting DEAD people. The standards of what you think of LIVE people do not apply to DEAD people. You have been applying standards for LIVING people to DEAD people. QuoteCan you guarantee...? ...... Finally, having in mind the well known fact that sex and guts always sell well, can you be sure that it’s the scientific benefits that make the exhibition so attractive to the masses? No, I can't guarantee or be sure of any of that. Neither can you. However, most of us in this discussion have seen people's reactions to the exhibit firsthand, whereas you have not. What have you seen firsthand and learned from the people who went to the exhibition? QuoteAs far as facts are concerned; will you deny...? ...... Any ideas? We already covered all of this. Why don't you go back and read the text that you can't follow? QuoteAbout the right to condemn whatever one feels like to condemn; You DID suggest that i shouldn’t criticize the exhibition because i haven’t seen it. THAT was your point. I said you COULD condemn it. You can say anything you want, and so can I. However, you seem to ignore this idea every time. I'm merely asking you for an INFORMED opinion, which you don't seem to be capable of forming since you think everyone else's opinions are irrelevant: QuoteAnd an average African woman’s opinion is of little importance as well, since she’s been growing up among people who think circumcising women it’s a right thing to do. How should she know that it’s wrong? What a great way to respect somebody's culture. Essentially you're saying, "Your opinion doesn't matter! Your culture is WRONG! WE have the RIGHT way, and YOU should follow it!" God forbid that she had something insightful to say about the subject, but I guess that doesn't matter to you since you've already deemed her opinion and thoughts as unimportant. You cannot say for sure what the actual thoughts and feelings of the Body Worlds visitors were thinking. You're ASSUMING and IMAGINING BY YOUR OWN STANDARDS what EVERY VISITOR to the exhibition is thinking. That's a pretty broad paintbrush you've got there. Could you lend it to me so that I can paint one wall of my house in one stroke? I'm still not going to take you very seriously if you're just going to spout off emotional opinions with no credible knowledge to back it up. You said yourself...an opinion without knowledge, that is, an UNINFORMED opinion is of little value. QuoteI said that despite the fact that one cannot be sure about his or her exact feelings, one can still predict he or she wouldn’t ever like to experience certain things. You DID negate that. Are you withdrawing from supporting the negation? No, I didn't negate that. I said you could predict to some degree of accuracy, but you're never going to know 100% unless you experience it for yourself. QuoteAbout being able to follow the written text; Orginally, we surely WEREN’T talking ONLY about the appreciation. We were talking about VALUING appreciation. And appreciation was just an example we worked on. So in fact we were talking about VALUING opinions. Yes, we were. It started with appreciation, then you brought up assigning value to it. Then it progressed into your poor examples, and I clarified for you that there is a difference between appreciation and criticism. Go back and read. QuoteThe information i try to obtain would be quite telling and it would make it possible to track the influences that might have been playing a signifficant role in the process of forming your views. Why would you want to track my influences? Why does it matter? What does my past really have to do with this discussion? You said yourself, "This ain’t no disfunctioning couples therapy session." QuoteNor have i imagined any psychology behind your refusal. I just ASKED if this is the case. Are you unable to distinguish between a question (suggestion) and assumption? Asking if I'm ashamed is in itself an assumption. When you're pondering about my thoughts and behaviors regarding my lovers, that is also an assumption. You're trying (whether you mean to or not) to make it personal--trying to provoke me on a personal level instead of addressing the actual issues at hand. It's trolling behavior. All I have attacked are your arguments. I haven't made any mention of your personal life, imagined or assumed anything about you. All of my comments are based on what you've written here. QuoteI haven’t referred to those phenomenons just for the sake of controversy. That’s what (among others) the art of polemic is about – finding suitable analogies. And it happens that the more extreme the analogy the more visible the mistakes of one’s opponents. That is – YOURS in this case :) Your analogies have very little to do with the actual discussion, therefore, to this discussion, they are drivel and dross. Analogies are a copout and merely a very convenient way to illustrate your (weak) point and detract attention from the actual topic being discussed. In your case, I don't think you've even illustrated your point very well because you've thrown in all of these other topics and avoided addressing the actual issue. QuoteA mature person should be able to think self-reliantly and form his or her OWN opinions. A MATURE person would gather as much information as possible from as many sides as possible and then form his/her OWN INFORMED opinion. An opinion formed and based on little fact is of little value. QuoteI haven’t also suggested that Von Hagens is or isn’t a doctor. I just quoted a news report. QuoteAccording to the court, as far as scientific titles are concerned, Von Hagens has so far gained only a honorific (!) doctorate of a communist university in China. Hm, thinking for yourself, I see. Oh, wait...no, you're only parroting what you read in a news article and not bothering to research that or consult any other sources. Why not do further research since this is relevant to the discussion? QuoteAnd if, as you suggest, the problem really is of a minor importance then WHY the man was sentenced to pay a 140 thousand dollar fine? Perhaps it’s more serious than you think? I don't really care, nor am I going to imagine or assume anything about it. _Pm__ "Scared of love, love and aeroplanes...falling out, I said takes no brains." -- Andy Partridge (XTC) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun 1 #78 August 19, 2006 Wow, I finally got around to watching this movie, Anatomy! What a fun movie! A bit disturbing, but then I like that sort of stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
