TypicalFish 0 #1 July 2, 2004 OK, based on the PREMISE (and that's all it is) that WMD's, terrorist connections, etc. were NOT really the reason the Bush Administration wanted to go to war in Iraq, what do you think WAS? What is the hidden agenda? Or was it just hubris? Again, just a premise, save the "stated justification was/was not adequate" for other threads...."I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #2 July 2, 2004 I think it's a combination of things.... 1. To establish a strategic military foothold in the Middle East. Throw a dart at the Middle Eastern region and Iraq is dead center. Plus it directly ajoins Iran and Syria, which have traditionally been pesky flies in our ointment. The fact that it also neighbors Saudi Arabia... homeland to many in al Qaeda... I think is also significant. It will be much easier for us to rattle our sabers if we have a significant military presence in Iraq than in.... say... Israel. 2. Reduce our dependence on Saudi oil. Iraq just happens to sit on top of the highest quality reserves of crude oil in the world. By gaining control of these reserves, we are less dependent on Saudi Arabia and can thus can more effectively exert influence over them to clean up their terrorism problem. 3. The Bush family has a personal vendetta with Saddam Hussein. Yeah it's sort of Oliver Stone-ish, but I honestly think this was at least at the back of Dubya's mind when he decided to go to war. - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #3 July 2, 2004 1- Iraq invades Kuwait 2- Iraq refuses to leave Kuwait 3- US-led coalition pushes Iraq back out 4- Iraq is being overrun- nothing stands between the coalition and Baghdad 5- Facing total annihilation, Iraq heads to the negotiating table and reaches a cease-fire agreement 6- Iraq spends the next ten years thumbing their noses at the UN and the cease-fire. The UN continues to pass resolution upon resolution but is not willing to enforce them. Sanctions are ineffective since anything the top people need comes in through Jordan. 7- US goes on the offensive and finishes the job after Saddam refuses to step down from power. I don't think anyone WANTED to go to war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #4 July 2, 2004 Seems kind of simple to me. Saddam Hussein was a victim of Osama Bin Laden. America was wounded by Sept. 11 all the way to the heart. There was no way the hawks would allow this to go unanswered. All enemies, real or imagined, were going to be delt with;harshly! Saddam was flaunting his ability to make the U.S. look indecisive. He attempted to assassinate a former President and no-one wanted to be seen sleeping at the switch when the next attack occured. All sides of the political spectrum wanted Saddam out of there, the argument was method. President Bush believes that it is his sacret duty to keep America safe, and it waspersonal too, the former President, Saddam tried to kill is his father; his wife was at the Capitol when plane #3 was supposed to hit. If Sept. 11 had not occured; Saddam would likely today be in a palace instead a cell. --------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickjump1 0 #5 July 2, 2004 Quote 1- Iraq invades Kuwait 2- Iraq refuses to leave Kuwait 3- US-led coalition pushes Iraq back out 4- Iraq is being overrun- nothing stands between the coalition and Baghdad 5- Facing total annihilation, Iraq heads to the negotiating table and reaches a cease-fire agreement 6- Iraq spends the next ten years thumbing their noses at the UN and the cease-fire. The UN continues to pass resolution upon resolution but is not willing to enforce them. Sanctions are ineffective since anything the top people need comes in through Jordan. 8- US goes on the offensive and finishes the job after Saddam refuses to step down from power. I don't think anyone WANTED to go to war........ Add bad intelligence and the ability to hide WMD.Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tunaplanet 0 #6 July 2, 2004 I thought Michael Moron explained truthfully and factfully why we invaded Iraq as well as everything else regarding Bush? Just go see the movie. He will tell you exactly how the world works. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites markd_nscr986 0 #7 July 2, 2004 too bad our allies got "cold feet" during desert storm about going all the way to baghdad and leaving no unfinished business......would have saved tens of thousands of kurds,shias, sunnis.......and more!Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #8 July 2, 2004 Nope. I disagree. The reason why the Bush Administration wnet to Iraq was to "clean up the block." The administration subscribed to the "broken windows" theory. If you do not fix the broken window, then other windows will be broken, turning an otherwise nice neighborhood into a bad one, and growing into surrounding neighborhoods. GWB believed Iraq was center of this. If you go in to clean up the block, the other areas around will clean themselves up. Thus, you will have a better developed and stable environment with people who play by the rules. Well, cleaning up the block wasn't a good enough reason. Playing up on fear from 9/11, the administration thought they could strike a chord with the WMD arguments and links to terrorism. So, they didn't say the real reason. Easy. "Clean up the block." Of course, a year later, that block is pretty freaking dirty. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mardigrasbob 0 #9 July 2, 2004 Quote I sound like a whuffo. 18 jumps in 2 years! You are a wuffo! just teasing --------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dbattman 0 #10 July 2, 2004 And if #1 to #6 hadn't happened, do you believe the coalition would have still formed and gone in? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mardigrasbob 0 #11 July 2, 2004 QuoteAnd if #1 to #7 hadn't happened, do you believe the coalition would have still formed and gone in? Something is wrong with my computer; it won't show 7s, any ideas? --------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dbattman 0 #12 July 2, 2004 JHC Is everyone around here a friggin' comedian? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #13 July 2, 2004 Nope. If 1 and six hadn't happened, this war wouldn't have happened. That's the "cleaning up the block" that I was writing about. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,996 #14 July 3, 2004 >What is the hidden agenda? No hidden agenda. The PNAC spelled it all out. They had a narrow window of opportunity to go to war with some popular support, they wanted the war to fulfill the objective of PNAC, they took the opportunity. WMD's were just the one reason the bureacracy could agree on to push a war. WMD's were scary enough that they could be used to shout down any opposition, and with the country reeling from 9/11, fear was a powerful ally of the war effort - and that fear was played masterfully. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tkhayes 348 #15 July 4, 2004 Do the reason's really matter? I seem to remember a detailed presentation on WMD's. Which is/was wrong and still is today. To now say we are fighting terrorism? Hmm, there were no terrorists based in Iraq (of any significance) before the war, now we are fighting them every day. Was this a self-fulfilling prophecy? Saddam Hussein as a butcher and needs to be taken out of control? Sheesh - 800,000 Rwandans were killed in 100 days in the largest genocide in decades (1996). Genocide is regularly practiced in several other corners of the world, so if we want to 'save people form their leaders', the targets could have been better chosen. I have no idea why we went to war, just like I have no idea why we still hold a grudge against Cuba. I do know that the reasons are flimsy and wrong and we should be apologizing and getting out. Let me guess, - Iraq has oil, businessmen love war, our leaders love war, Rwanda has only poor black people, and (many) Americans are apparently dumb enough to be lead around like a horse following a carrot, believeing everything the gov't tells them. TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #16 July 4, 2004 My thought process is a bit dulled from lack of skydiving, but I'd be interested in hearing what folks think the short and long term effects of our presence there are likely to be. I will get to jump today. I WILL get to jump today...I WILL get to jump today...I WILL get to jump today....hehehe...ride just called...it will happen... Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites newsstand 0 #17 July 4, 2004 Quote... just like I have no idea why we still hold a grudge against Cuba. Because of the large voting block of Cuban's in Miami. "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites newsstand 0 #18 July 4, 2004 QuoteMy thought process is a bit dulled from lack of skydiving, but I'd be interested in hearing what folks think the short and long term effects of our presence there are likely to be. Short term effects are rather obvious. Rise of insergency in Iraq and increased distrust of America world wide. Long term is harder to tell. Depends on what we do going forward. It really has to look like we have turned the country back over to the Iraqis. Building a bunch of permanent bases there won't help that image. If we truly help but the country back together and then go home we will at least salvage our image in the non-Muslim world. Quote I will get to jump today. I WILL get to jump today...I WILL get to jump today...I WILL get to jump today....hehehe...ride just called...it will happen... Lucky bastard. I had to be the sacrifice yesterday to get the clouds to go away. Today is family holiday celebrations and of course the sky is beautiful. Hopefully the weather will hold for tomorrow. Brand new never yet jumped jump suit waiting for me. "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #19 July 4, 2004 Quote...businessmen love war... Huh? Anyone polled any of the businessmen running parachuting businesses (DZO's, Manufacturers, Gear Retailers, etc, etc, etc) to see if they "love war"? Seems like a pretty sweeping generalization to make about a class of people that makes up a significant minority of the American populace.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #20 July 4, 2004 Quote. . . I have no idea why we still hold a grudge against Cuba. Wow, that's a tough one! But maybe you could ask the million or so Cubans who've FLED THE COUNTRY over the last few decades. Some of them might even be willing to share with you their personal stories of grief and horror about the only remaining DICTATOR in the western hemisphere. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tkhayes 348 #21 July 4, 2004 geez, then we should also (or should have) boycott(ed) Columbia, Honduras, Panama, half the countries in South America and Haiti, For years, thousands of people ran from Haiti, but we did nothing - Baby Doc was ruthless, but we had no sanctions against Haiti all these years - so again - why Cuba? We do business with LOTS of dictatorships around the world - dictatorship does not necessarily mean we boycott them, nor does it necessarily mean that they are bad for their people. Cuba is a poor country with a poor government and little to offer its people. But it is still richer and probably less corrupt than Haiti has been for 30+ years. Yet we did nothing there. Back to my argument about why we dispose of a dictator in Iraq, when there are MANY worse in the world. (Cause they got oil and we don't like poor niggers.....) TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tkhayes 348 #22 July 4, 2004 I will not name but I will quote the parachute manufacturer who recently said "God bless the war" War makes lots of businesses rich. Spending is reckless and never ending by the military and government as they justify any amounts of money for the cause, whether they can afford it or not. Ask Haliburton and their stockholders if it would be a good thing for the company to end the war in Iraq. You bet they support it. And so do many of the other manufacturers and suppliers that are sending & providing parts, supplies, equipment and whatever to the war effort. Ethically and socially, they might object, but when that big contract comes in, they are more than happy to sign on the dotted line without thinking about how many people may die because of their products and services. TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites damion75 0 #23 July 4, 2004 Quote What is the hidden agenda? Or was it just hubris? I heard that it was because Dubbya heard that Elvis had been kidnapped by the young Saddam Hussein and wasn't really dead at all. Apparently he had been hidden somewhere in the Iraqi desert and was only brought out on special days to sing for SH...Sadly it doesn't appear to have been true since they have been searching for over a year and there is still no sign of the King, or any of his favourite foodstuffs in any secret underground bunkers... *************** Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydyvr 0 #24 July 5, 2004 Quotegeez, then we should also (or should have) boycott(ed) Columbia, Honduras, Panama, half the countries in South America and Haiti, For years, thousands of people ran from Haiti, but we did nothing - Baby Doc was ruthless, but we had no sanctions against Haiti all these years - so again - why Cuba? Proximity is a factor, and so is the fact that Castro was and remains a threat to our national security. Our relationships with the other nations you mentioned are complex, and certainly not consistent or even wise, but so far none of them has been a threat. That's the primary difference. QuoteBack to my argument about why we dispose of a dictator in Iraq, when there are MANY worse in the world. (Cause they got oil and we don't like poor niggers.....) When the US invades Venezuela, I'll buy into the dimwitted "it's all about the oil" argument. After all, they're closer and weaker than Iraq, so why not move in? Oh wait -- Venezuela is not a threat to our national security, so maybe that's why we haven't invaded. --- PS: You'd be doing yourself a big favor by losing the racist language. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tkhayes 348 #25 July 5, 2004 Castro is a threat to our national security? Why? Kennedy solved the crisis in 1961-1962 whenever it was, that was a loooooooong time ago - I see no threat to the USA from Cuba. Sorry about the 'racist' language' but it is hard to display sarcasm in print. My experiences here in Zephyrhills, especially recently, lead me to believe that much of the USA is still very much racist and people still hold the beliefs that blacks are inferior, depsite what the law might say. TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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tunaplanet 0 #6 July 2, 2004 I thought Michael Moron explained truthfully and factfully why we invaded Iraq as well as everything else regarding Bush? Just go see the movie. He will tell you exactly how the world works. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #7 July 2, 2004 too bad our allies got "cold feet" during desert storm about going all the way to baghdad and leaving no unfinished business......would have saved tens of thousands of kurds,shias, sunnis.......and more!Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #8 July 2, 2004 Nope. I disagree. The reason why the Bush Administration wnet to Iraq was to "clean up the block." The administration subscribed to the "broken windows" theory. If you do not fix the broken window, then other windows will be broken, turning an otherwise nice neighborhood into a bad one, and growing into surrounding neighborhoods. GWB believed Iraq was center of this. If you go in to clean up the block, the other areas around will clean themselves up. Thus, you will have a better developed and stable environment with people who play by the rules. Well, cleaning up the block wasn't a good enough reason. Playing up on fear from 9/11, the administration thought they could strike a chord with the WMD arguments and links to terrorism. So, they didn't say the real reason. Easy. "Clean up the block." Of course, a year later, that block is pretty freaking dirty. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #9 July 2, 2004 Quote I sound like a whuffo. 18 jumps in 2 years! You are a wuffo! just teasing --------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #10 July 2, 2004 And if #1 to #6 hadn't happened, do you believe the coalition would have still formed and gone in? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mardigrasbob 0 #11 July 2, 2004 QuoteAnd if #1 to #7 hadn't happened, do you believe the coalition would have still formed and gone in? Something is wrong with my computer; it won't show 7s, any ideas? --------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #12 July 2, 2004 JHC Is everyone around here a friggin' comedian? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #13 July 2, 2004 Nope. If 1 and six hadn't happened, this war wouldn't have happened. That's the "cleaning up the block" that I was writing about. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,996 #14 July 3, 2004 >What is the hidden agenda? No hidden agenda. The PNAC spelled it all out. They had a narrow window of opportunity to go to war with some popular support, they wanted the war to fulfill the objective of PNAC, they took the opportunity. WMD's were just the one reason the bureacracy could agree on to push a war. WMD's were scary enough that they could be used to shout down any opposition, and with the country reeling from 9/11, fear was a powerful ally of the war effort - and that fear was played masterfully. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #15 July 4, 2004 Do the reason's really matter? I seem to remember a detailed presentation on WMD's. Which is/was wrong and still is today. To now say we are fighting terrorism? Hmm, there were no terrorists based in Iraq (of any significance) before the war, now we are fighting them every day. Was this a self-fulfilling prophecy? Saddam Hussein as a butcher and needs to be taken out of control? Sheesh - 800,000 Rwandans were killed in 100 days in the largest genocide in decades (1996). Genocide is regularly practiced in several other corners of the world, so if we want to 'save people form their leaders', the targets could have been better chosen. I have no idea why we went to war, just like I have no idea why we still hold a grudge against Cuba. I do know that the reasons are flimsy and wrong and we should be apologizing and getting out. Let me guess, - Iraq has oil, businessmen love war, our leaders love war, Rwanda has only poor black people, and (many) Americans are apparently dumb enough to be lead around like a horse following a carrot, believeing everything the gov't tells them. TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #16 July 4, 2004 My thought process is a bit dulled from lack of skydiving, but I'd be interested in hearing what folks think the short and long term effects of our presence there are likely to be. I will get to jump today. I WILL get to jump today...I WILL get to jump today...I WILL get to jump today....hehehe...ride just called...it will happen... Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newsstand 0 #17 July 4, 2004 Quote... just like I have no idea why we still hold a grudge against Cuba. Because of the large voting block of Cuban's in Miami. "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
newsstand 0 #18 July 4, 2004 QuoteMy thought process is a bit dulled from lack of skydiving, but I'd be interested in hearing what folks think the short and long term effects of our presence there are likely to be. Short term effects are rather obvious. Rise of insergency in Iraq and increased distrust of America world wide. Long term is harder to tell. Depends on what we do going forward. It really has to look like we have turned the country back over to the Iraqis. Building a bunch of permanent bases there won't help that image. If we truly help but the country back together and then go home we will at least salvage our image in the non-Muslim world. Quote I will get to jump today. I WILL get to jump today...I WILL get to jump today...I WILL get to jump today....hehehe...ride just called...it will happen... Lucky bastard. I had to be the sacrifice yesterday to get the clouds to go away. Today is family holiday celebrations and of course the sky is beautiful. Hopefully the weather will hold for tomorrow. Brand new never yet jumped jump suit waiting for me. "Truth is tough. It will not break, like a bubble, at a touch; nay, you may kick it about all day like a football, and it will be round and full at evening." -- Oliver Wendell Holmes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #19 July 4, 2004 Quote...businessmen love war... Huh? Anyone polled any of the businessmen running parachuting businesses (DZO's, Manufacturers, Gear Retailers, etc, etc, etc) to see if they "love war"? Seems like a pretty sweeping generalization to make about a class of people that makes up a significant minority of the American populace.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #20 July 4, 2004 Quote. . . I have no idea why we still hold a grudge against Cuba. Wow, that's a tough one! But maybe you could ask the million or so Cubans who've FLED THE COUNTRY over the last few decades. Some of them might even be willing to share with you their personal stories of grief and horror about the only remaining DICTATOR in the western hemisphere. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #21 July 4, 2004 geez, then we should also (or should have) boycott(ed) Columbia, Honduras, Panama, half the countries in South America and Haiti, For years, thousands of people ran from Haiti, but we did nothing - Baby Doc was ruthless, but we had no sanctions against Haiti all these years - so again - why Cuba? We do business with LOTS of dictatorships around the world - dictatorship does not necessarily mean we boycott them, nor does it necessarily mean that they are bad for their people. Cuba is a poor country with a poor government and little to offer its people. But it is still richer and probably less corrupt than Haiti has been for 30+ years. Yet we did nothing there. Back to my argument about why we dispose of a dictator in Iraq, when there are MANY worse in the world. (Cause they got oil and we don't like poor niggers.....) TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #22 July 4, 2004 I will not name but I will quote the parachute manufacturer who recently said "God bless the war" War makes lots of businesses rich. Spending is reckless and never ending by the military and government as they justify any amounts of money for the cause, whether they can afford it or not. Ask Haliburton and their stockholders if it would be a good thing for the company to end the war in Iraq. You bet they support it. And so do many of the other manufacturers and suppliers that are sending & providing parts, supplies, equipment and whatever to the war effort. Ethically and socially, they might object, but when that big contract comes in, they are more than happy to sign on the dotted line without thinking about how many people may die because of their products and services. TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
damion75 0 #23 July 4, 2004 Quote What is the hidden agenda? Or was it just hubris? I heard that it was because Dubbya heard that Elvis had been kidnapped by the young Saddam Hussein and wasn't really dead at all. Apparently he had been hidden somewhere in the Iraqi desert and was only brought out on special days to sing for SH...Sadly it doesn't appear to have been true since they have been searching for over a year and there is still no sign of the King, or any of his favourite foodstuffs in any secret underground bunkers... *************** Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #24 July 5, 2004 Quotegeez, then we should also (or should have) boycott(ed) Columbia, Honduras, Panama, half the countries in South America and Haiti, For years, thousands of people ran from Haiti, but we did nothing - Baby Doc was ruthless, but we had no sanctions against Haiti all these years - so again - why Cuba? Proximity is a factor, and so is the fact that Castro was and remains a threat to our national security. Our relationships with the other nations you mentioned are complex, and certainly not consistent or even wise, but so far none of them has been a threat. That's the primary difference. QuoteBack to my argument about why we dispose of a dictator in Iraq, when there are MANY worse in the world. (Cause they got oil and we don't like poor niggers.....) When the US invades Venezuela, I'll buy into the dimwitted "it's all about the oil" argument. After all, they're closer and weaker than Iraq, so why not move in? Oh wait -- Venezuela is not a threat to our national security, so maybe that's why we haven't invaded. --- PS: You'd be doing yourself a big favor by losing the racist language. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tkhayes 348 #25 July 5, 2004 Castro is a threat to our national security? Why? Kennedy solved the crisis in 1961-1962 whenever it was, that was a loooooooong time ago - I see no threat to the USA from Cuba. Sorry about the 'racist' language' but it is hard to display sarcasm in print. My experiences here in Zephyrhills, especially recently, lead me to believe that much of the USA is still very much racist and people still hold the beliefs that blacks are inferior, depsite what the law might say. TK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
