Good for Israel

[PhillyKev 0]

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Many equals everyone? Odd sort of logic.

I still think it's warped to say that many people think that.

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Many Palestinians are upset for exactly the reason I alluded to earlier.

Did you conduct a poll or something? There was a long article in the WSJ last week detailing why many palestiniana, and Israelis were opposed to it. And no where did it say anything about them wanting more terrorist attacks. A couple of examples were families that now need to travel hours to a gate to visit someone 1/2 mile away on the other side of the wall. Another was quite a few people who need to travel hours out of their way several times a week to go to their dialysis appointments.

I just can't get a handle on why you would think that just because someone is against something that has ramifications affecting their way of life, that they must want more terrorism.

[TheAnvil 0]

That many and everyone bit is still eluding you.

Is the wall perfect? No. Is it added protection for Israel that performs a valid function - absolutely. If the Palestinians were truly inconvenienced, they could call on Al-Manar to stop broadcasting its message of hate and rise up en masse for peace. Won't happen.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[PhillyKev 0]

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That many and everyone bit is still eluding you.

Not at all...in fact, let's try for some, or even one. Can you point out where anyone besides yourself has claimed that people are opposed to the wall because it stops terrorism?

[Kennedy 0]

I'll post it now that all the people opposed to Israel's existance are pissed that the wall is stopping terrorism.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[TheAnvil 0]

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/06/25/Opinion/Israel_s_wall_is_desi.shtml

There's some letters to the editor from everyday Americans agreeing with me.

Why don't you tell us why placing a barrier in between yourself and bastions of terrorism DOESN'T reduce terrorism in your own territory?

Rather odd that anyone would think that such a barrier wouldn't do so.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[PhillyKev 0]

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Why don't you tell us why placing a barrier in between yourself and bastions of terrorism DOESN'T reduce terrorism in your own territory?

I never said it didn't. And I never claimed the barrier was a bad thing, either. I'm still wondering why you think that the reason people are opposed to the barrier is because they want more terrorism. I didn't see anyone say that in your link.

[crozby 0]

Maybe if the wall/fence wasn't built entirely on Palestinian land it wouldn't be such an issue.

Why was it put there, and not along more established borders?

[falxori 0]

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Why was it put there, and not along more established borders?

well there are no "established borders" but i agree, the route chosen mostly for security reasons is not the best. and it is being changed in some places based on the israeli supreme court's decision.

and as for being a big issue, i really dont know.
it seems to me there is nothing israel can do right.
if we're in there stopping terror in the cities, its wrong. if we want to pull out, its wrong too.
the only right thing is to do it with an agreement, but its hard to do so when there is no one serious to talk to...

bottom line? the fence is a need, we'd be happy to save the billions it costs and use it for other things. as for the route, i would chose another in some places but i'm not familiar with all the aspects.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[crozby 0]

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as for the route, i would chose another in some places but i'm not familiar with all the aspects.

The following link contains a map which appears to show that the barrier is well within Palestinian territory.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3111159.stm

I think Israel would have got more international support for the barrier if an attempt had been made to route it fairly. As it is she has left herself wide open to accusations of land-grabbing.

[kelpdiver 2]

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yes and no.
israel is believed to have had nukes since the early 60s and there were several wars after that. ofcourse, israel having nukes doesnt mean israel is using nukes (cant be sure of that about other countries though...)

But none since you spun up a few and make sure everyone knew about it.

And let's not mince words - Israel has a fairly massive collection, esp for a country of its size. Being the only nuclear power in town has been very effective in corraling Saddam Hussein types to mere words and occasional potshots.

Will it use them? In response to an attack by "WMD" (chem, bio, nuke) - I would imagine so, at least against a non nuclear power.

[TheAnvil 0]

Hmm...your assertion that those seeking to clandestinely enter Israeli settlements protected by the current barrier for the express purpose of killing Israelis would not be opposed to the barrier is an astounding bit of logic on your part. Do you actually believe said folk are few in number among the Palestinians? I would think it beyond question to virtually anyone.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[algboy 0]

"That's a good start. Now you need one up north to prevent those fucking Cannucks from getting in. Then we'll be perfect."

Hey--don't forget Texas and California

“Keep your elbow up!"

[PhillyKev 0]

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Hmm...your assertion that those seeking to clandestinely enter Israeli settlements protected by the current barrier for the express purpose of killing Israelis would not be opposed to the barrier is an astounding bit of logic on your part.

Since you stated that most people opposed to the wall are opposed because they want more terrorism, I'm questioning your logic. Yes, I'm sure those who want to increase terrorism are opposed to the wall. But you can't turn that around and say that most people opposed to the wall, want more terrorism. It's logically flawed. It's like saying that since all blue eyed people are caucasion, then all caucasions have blue eyes.

[mikkey 0]

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as for the route, i would chose another in some places but i'm not familiar with all the aspects.

The following link contains a map which appears to show that the barrier is well within Palestinian territory.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3111159.stm

I think Israel would have got more international support for the barrier if an attempt had been made to route it fairly. As it is she has left herself wide open to accusations of land-grabbing.

Agree with you. I am very pro-Israel, but sick and tired of Sharon's policies - it seems like he really does not want a peaceful solution.
The other issue about the wall that I noticed in news reports is that the wall in places separates Palestinians from their own agricultural property making it impossible to make a living. I do understand that Israel is fed-up with the attacks and want to close the border, but the way they done it is unfair and will loose them friends.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[jumpy 0]

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Agree with you. I am very pro-Israel, but sick and tired of Sharon's policies - it seems like he really does not want a peaceful solution.

Does seem that way doesn't it. Seems like he'd much rather expand his country really doesn't it.. Funny that..

On the topic of innocent women and children that somebody mentioned above.. What about the homes of innocent palestinian's destroyed by bulldozers on the west bank without compensation or ample time to move?..

[falxori 0]

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What about the homes of innocent palestinian's destroyed by bulldozers on the west bank

you can stop the dramatic description of bulldozers destroying innocent homes.
most of the homes destroyed are either of suicide bombers, or structures used for terrorist activity such as entry point for tunnels in gaza or explosives' labs.

fighting inside civilian buildings is not an israeli choice, but if thats where terrorists are hiding thats israel will fight them.

sure, innocent get hurt and they shouldn't. moreover, when they get hurt, the terror group grow stronger. but what would you do if someone was using a house as a bunker to shoot at you?

and dont start with "pull out" or "learn to live in peace" because we've tried that already (which gave them time to get organized) and we'll try it again because we all know what the end agreement will be like.
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[crozby 0]

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you can stop the dramatic description of bulldozers destroying innocent homes.
most of the homes destroyed are either of suicide bombers, or structures used for terrorist activity such as entry point for tunnels in gaza or explosives' labs.

Maybe we get fed false information, but it was my understanding that the operation in Rafah to find tunnels destroyed hundreds of houses, made up to 1000 homeless, killed scores of locals, half a dozen or so when a tank shelled a peaceful demonstration, destroyed infrastructure (water, electric etc.) and only found just 1 tunnel (other reports say 3 tunnels).

With all the highly advanced technology available I find it impossible to believe that the tunnel(s) couldn't have been found and destroyed without all the additional carnage.

Besides, dealing with terrorism by destroying their properties and those of their relatives doesn't make a lot of sense to me: it's just going to make them more pissed off and have even less to lose.

[falxori 0]

the information is correct, the numbers are not.
even UNRWA which is not exactly on israel's side has corrected its early reports which counted 180 buildings to less than 50:

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The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA) has completed its
initial assessment of the numbers of homes demolished or damaged beyond repair during the
latest Israeli military operation in Rafah.
From 18 May until 23 May a total of 45 buildings in the Tel Sultan, Brazil and Salam quarters of
Rafah were destroyed or rendered uninhabitable. These buildings housed 98 families or 575
individuals.

its a well known fact that they invent numbers early on to create a shock effect. thats what you remember afterwards, not that it was a lie...

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half a dozen or so when a tank shelled a peaceful demonstration,

yes, that should not happen. even if armed terrorists take shelter behind civilians. there is no excuse for such mistakes.

(btw, 90% of those killed, about 40, were armed terrorists, the rest were mostly in that demonstration)

and as for using tanks, you can't imagine the amount of weapons and explosives hidden in gaza. even in that operation 2 APCs were blown up killing 10 or 11 soldiers (not to mention that their remains were taken as souveniers...)

as for the tunnels, yes, only 3 were found in that operation, but you can add them to the dozens (can't find the exact number now) in the past three years.
calculate how many weapons were smuggled before they were found, and add the fact that we know Iran and the Hezbollah are sending lots of weapons never seen in this conflict before.

i won't argue that innocent palestinians also get hurt, sometimes without a good reason. but the majority of those hurt , get hurt for a good reason.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[TheAnvil 0]

The majority of people opposed to the wall who do not simultaneously want to increase terrorism are playing the ostrich with the wall's intended purpose. Play word games as you will.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[crozby 0]

If the walls sole intended purpose was to reduce terrorism then why has it been constructed entirely within the West Bank?

[chuteless 1]

The wall is built on Israeli land. The whole area belongs to Israel, and Palestinians have NO claim on any of it. GOD gave the land toIsrael...it is and always will be Israel's.

For you who know nothing about the days in which God gave the land to Israel, don't go off the deep end until you read God's WORD, where it is all explained...many times.

Bill Cole

[falxori 0]

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GOD gave the land toIsrael...

i'm not a huge supporter of this theory but it reminds me of a joke...

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On the sixth day God turned to the angel Gabriel and said, "Today I am going to create a land called Israel. It will be a land of outstanding natural beauty. It will have rolling hills and mountains full of goats and eagles, a beautiful, sparkling, clear ocean full of sea life and high cliffs overlooking white sandy beaches."
God continued, "And I shall make the land rich in oil to allow the
inhabitants to prosper. I shall call these inhabitants ‘Jews’ and they shall be known as the most friendly people on the earth."
"But," asked Gabriel, "don't you think you’re being too generous to these Jews?"
"Not really," replied God, "just wait and see the neighbours I am going to
give them."

and on a serious note, the palestinians are here and they won't leave just because "god gave this land to israel."
a solution must be found and it will be 2 states.
why is the fence in the west bank? because thats where the trouble comes from.
and its a security fence, not a political border. when it is no longer needed it will be removed.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[PhillyKev 0]

oy vey

[falxori 0]

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oy vey

funny, that was what i was thinking...
i'd be very sad if that would be the only argument i have.

but even if you go with the "who was here first" concept, we still win, even without the help of big G up there

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Botellines 0]

Let´s say that the word of GOD (I mean, allah) says that this land belongs to Palestinians. What should we do? A my GOD is better than your GOD contest?
I always do my best to respect people from other religions, but it is very hard with people who force their religion to other people.
Just for the record, and this is my personal opinion. The bible is a piece of bullshit. Even if once upon the time, it was the word of Jesus which i very much doubt, now it is way too old to comply with modern time (just read the leviticus), so please, please, please, don´t use it to prove your point, because it doesn´t prove anything at all. And i know there is very many people in DZ.com that shares my believes. My spiderman comics are as valid source as your bible, and they don´t say anything about Israel or Palestina.
Who was Jesus by the way? Did you know him? is there any scientific proof that he even existed? Are you aware that if he even existed it was the jews and not the muslims who killed him? Face it, Jesus did not exist, although i admit it would have been cool. How fun would it be to have in a party a guy who could multiply wine?
I don´t believe in GOD, you are GOD, i am GOD, everybody is GOD. I believe in you, and he, and she, and myself, give me real people, not a construct made by men to overcome fear of death.
Thank you, i needed to get all this out. If we are not talking about religion, it IS NOT necessary that you bring forward your personal believes, try to prove your point in an analitical way rather than an emotional one.
Please, do not take this as apersonal attack because it is not directed to you, but in general. I am replying to you because it was your post that made me jump.