Casurf1978 0 #26 July 14, 2004 Quote There's a reason we have a 0 tolerance policy when it comes to negotiating with terrorists. It works. Does that zero tolerance apply to amnesty for terrorist too? Look at what the Saudis did with Abu Suleiman. Then again they let Idi Amin stay in SA. I could care less what a small third world country does. But when SA starts handing out pardons to guys like this that is of more importance than a small country pulling out 50 workers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #27 July 14, 2004 QuoteThere's a reason we have a 0 tolerance policy when it comes to negotiating with terrorists. It works. I think you watch a little too many hollywood movies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #28 July 14, 2004 "It works." Obviously.....-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #29 July 14, 2004 QuoteYour example is unreasonable and flawed... Thats a politicians answer, and anyway no it isn't. He's basically taking the line that one should never negotiate with terrorists. I'm questioning if he really stands by that in all circumstances. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #30 July 14, 2004 This is goofy. 1 - the real cowards are the terrorists for their pathetic actions 2 - The Spanish and Phillipino governments were our allies in a just cause and stuck with it as far as their determination and nerve allowed them. They are our friends and allies and we should be grateful for what contribution they could make. 3 - People/societies have differing levels of determination in any cause and these guys at least joined the fight during the tough phase. (if you have a little friend and he jumps into a fight to help you, and then just couldn't deal after a while, then at least he gave it his best shot. The 'friend' who ran at the first sign of trouble and then sat there hiding trying to rationalize his abandoning is the one you need to think about - at least the little guy tried) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #31 July 14, 2004 QuoteQuoteYour example is unreasonable and flawed... Thats a politicians answer, and anyway no it isn't. He's basically taking the line that one should never negotiate with terrorists. I'm questioning if he really stands by that in all circumstances. Here we go again with the fragments. No, it is not a politicians answer. I cannot stand politics. And yes it is flawed. The context of this discussion is the decision of the Phillipines to set a national policy of appeasement when placed under pressure. That should not be done on a national level. Appeasement has a bad track record on the world stage. It doesn't work well on the corporate level either, as companies who take the cheap way out and settle lawsuits get slapped with bigger and more aggressive lawsuits (hey, it worked last time- let's try again). I believe this the same as Tuna. But then again, I am neither a country nor a multibillion dollar corporation. Would I pay the buck? Probably, but then again I am just a man that loves his family. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #32 July 14, 2004 have they set a national policy? i thought they just weighed up the pros and cons in this instance and decided it was better to save a life. If its so obvious that one would pay the buck to save ones relatives, why is it such a different matter for a government to sacrifice something equally as trivial to save a life. There will most likely be no negative comebacks for their actions in this instance which would indicate that sometimes appeasment or negotiation is the right path after all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dbattman 0 #33 July 14, 2004 I have no idea how else to respond to this, other than to recommend that you study some history. I would suggest starting somewhere around 1910 and working towards the present. They are different matters and can't be compared. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andrewstewart 0 #34 July 14, 2004 QuoteYou do not allow yourselves to negotiate with terrorists. Period. I don't care if they pulled them out 15 seconds or 15 weeks early. It's a mistake either way. A deadly mistake. There's a reason we have a 0 tolerance policy when it comes to negotiating with terrorists. It works. Not negotiating "works"? You couldn't be more wrong. It didn't work in Northern Island and it sure as hell won't work in Iraq. Negotiating is actually the ONLY way in which you can end a widespread (i.e. nation-wide) terrorist/insurgent scenario. If the British government had stuck to your policy then there would still be bombings in Northern Ireland today. Do you think the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka can be defeated by simply "not negotiating"? You're living in a fantasy world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #35 July 14, 2004 Geez rehmwa, Are you helping us out or are you taking the piss? I don´t think it is related to nerve or determination. Don´t over simplify. You may think the cause was just, but we didn´t. 90% of us didn´t want to go to war. But if the president sais go to war, the army has to do it. Doesn´t it work the same way in the US. Now, when election comes, if you don´t think the president represent you, you fire him, and we did. If Kerry wins the elections, will you say that the US has no nerve or determination? or will you think that more than 50% of US citizens believe that Bush do not represent them anymore? That we don´t follow YOUR agenda, does not mean a lack of determination on our side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #36 July 14, 2004 Well, that's a tough question. But I once saw a co-ed reading a textbook on nuclear physics, so in my humble opinion - I think caramel is one of the best flavors out there. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #37 July 14, 2004 These terrorists were less committed than even the previous pieces of shit abducting people in Iraq. They did not follow through on their deadline. Manila should have stood up and told the kidnappers to give back the hostage or else. Now they took a weak group and strengthened them, and encouraged them to continue taking hostages to convince other governments. If each government stood up and said we will not buckle, the kidnappings/beheadings would stop. Now, it has worked, so let's go do it again (kind of like the bombing in Spain and the perceived threat of bombings in November).witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #38 July 14, 2004 Depends. In your hypothetical, was there a large terrorist attack on the US and is Kerry saying he'll pull out all troops? Is he pulling out all troops to prevent a beheading? If that's the case, and he is elected, you're damn right I would be saying the US electorate has no backbone, and I would probably cry in wonder of what happened to my country. I would also be preparing things I hope never to have to prepare.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #39 July 14, 2004 QuoteWell, that's a tough question. But I once saw a co-ed reading a textbook on nuclear physics, so in my humble opinion - I think caramel is one of the best flavors out there. I guess you need more time to think the answer... No worries, take your time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #40 July 14, 2004 His post was a statement on the lack of causation, connection, and sufficient facts in your question.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #41 July 14, 2004 Well, the US has been enduring terrorist attacks in Irak daily. Beheadings, car bombs, etc. over 1000 Us soldiers have died so far and many more have been wounded. You know the moment you get out of the country, that will stop, at least that is what they claim. I think you are in a very similar situation than Philipines and Spain, you are being black mailed. Now, Bush is pro invasion, Kerry is not. Are you saying that Bush should be automaticlly reelected (no democracy) so you won´t give the terrorists what they want which is to pull US troops out of Irak? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #42 July 14, 2004 No, I'm saying let the voters decide, and they will decide on a myriad of factors, unless there is some terrible event just prior to the election. Who says attacks on America will stop if we pull out? What a bunch of nonsense. Attacks may stop on one front, but that will just make the other fronts much more dangerous for the US.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #43 July 14, 2004 You are a wise man. I disagree though, and think it a bad precedent on the part of any government. Very well put however. Quite tenable. Vinny the Anvil Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #44 July 14, 2004 QuoteNo, I'm saying let the voters decide, and they will decide on a myriad of factors, unless there is some terrible event just prior to the election. Then, what would you do? hold the elections? don´t you think that would benefit one party over the other (whichever one)? that would not be democratic. I agree with you if the terrible event made the election imposible, short of like if a whole city was blown up, which was not the case in Madrid. Here, the voters took a choice and that choice does not fit the Republican agenda, so instead of calling it democracy they call it lack of nerve or determination. I really hope there is not a terrorist attack closed to the elections for a fear it wouldn´t be a small one. But if there is, you will find yourself beetwen a rock and a hard wall. Then, hopefully, you will take the most democratic decision regardless who may benefit or who you are going to upset. QuoteWho says attacks on America will stop if we pull out? What a bunch of nonsense. Attacks may stop on one front, but that will just make the other fronts much more dangerous for the US. No, attacks will not stop. But No, other fronts will not be more dangerous. Concentrate you efforts in protecting your homeland and your actual interest instead of creating new interests. That will not guarantee a terrorism free country, but i asure you it will make a lot harder for terrorists to strike at you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crwtom 0 #45 July 14, 2004 Quote 1000 Us soldiers have died so far and many more have been wounded. You know the moment you get out of the country, that will stop, at least that is what they claim. I think you are in a very similar situation than Philipines and Spain? actually we're at 890 for US casualties and over 1000 for the coalition. The present tactics of the insugents/terrorists is quite clear. The hostage takings and blackmailing are very disproportionally directed at the few allies the US has rather than the US itself. The goal is obvious - to isolate the US or at least US/UK from everyone else. The reason is equally clear. A unilateral force in iraq is favorable for these groups - it makes it possible to advertise neo-colonialism, influence public opinion, denounce legitimacy as well as recruit new fighters into their ranks. If you think about those in the Bush admin who were strongly advocating unilateralism (s/a Cheney) w/o UN backing were thus the ones giving those terror groups a good head start in this respect. Cheers, T ******************************************************************* Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #46 July 14, 2004 QuoteI guess you need more time to think the answer... No worries, take your time. I think my position is clear. Caramel is delicious. As far as comparing the Spanish vote (which appeared to be a loss of determination after an attack, say what you will. Because the pullout was due to a vote to change the leadership which resulted in a withdrawal still is a statement of lack of followthrough - just by the voting public reflected in policy - that's how it works, you choose to take the statement as a shameful one, I'm just stating fact and don't imply a moral low ground on the part of the Spanish voters.) to the US election upcoming. I think your comparison is not a good analogy. If we were attacked prior to an election, the people would likely strengthen support, not the other way around. Also, the demographics between Spain and the US (culture, size, military strength, etc) are different in key areas here so each country would respond differently. So I tease because you spin up easily. In any case, Spain supported the cause for some time. That is important. For some nations, trying to be a strong ally is the best to hope for, not every single country out there is a military powerhouse so I'd expect a different response from different countries to certain types of threats. I'm sure the terrorists understand this. The problem with Spain and the Philipines pulling out, is not that it encourages more beheadings in general, it's that it will encourage more blackmail to smaller/weaker countries. The problem is we need a more decisive and military response to these situations in support of our allies, not a weakening of the coalition. If Kerry was elected, it is very unlikely he wouldn't want to finish what's been started. Even if he didn't, the Congress wouldn't support that stance. Funny thing about the US, we're asked to be the policemen for the world, but when we take that role it's begrudged. Just like real cops. The integrity comes from doing the thankless job anyway. And then caramel with chocolate? don't even get me started. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
favaks 0 #47 July 14, 2004 Quote Another France wannabe. Easy to sit back and talk when it's not your friends or family. It's a matter of priority. Will I sacrifice my best friend's life for 10, 100, 1000 strangers? Hell no!!! Operation Freedom--whatever! favaks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #48 July 14, 2004 QuoteQuote Another France wannabe. Easy to sit back and talk when it's not your friends or family. It's a matter of priority. Will I sacrifice my best friend's life for 10, 100, 1000 strangers? Hell no!!! Operation Freedom--whatever! favaks But the difference is you're dealing with people who have no problem sacrificing their friends or their own lives -- think car or human bombs. You also are saving one life or ten, but putting at risk many more because of your spineless position. By spineless, I mean folding when confronted with something you don't like. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #49 July 14, 2004 QuoteEven if he didn't, the Congress wouldn't support that stance. Funny thing about the US, we're asked to be the policemen for the world, but when we take that role it's begrudged. Considering that George Bush said, before he was electedf that it wasn't the US's job to police the world, I think it's safe to assume that the US has chosen itself to police the world, much more than it has been asked to... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #50 July 14, 2004 QuoteEasy to sit back and talk when it's not your friends or family. It's a matter of priority. Will I sacrifice my best friend's life for 10, 100, 1000 strangers? Hell no!!! Operation Freedom--whatever! And that's why you choose not to serve. So be it. "and I don't want to die for you, but if dyin's asked of me I'll bear that cross with honor, cause freedom don't come free" At a personal level, I would want my friend or family back as well. In government, one must look at the bigger picture, i.e. what happens next time?witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
