P.E.T.A.

[freeflybella 0]

Jeffrey please,

For a small moment inside you - a small thing - something called, something cried. Don't dismiss it.

I'm not asking you to change who you are - just to listen to a small voice inside that you may have ignored before now.

That is all.

This issue can NOT go head to head. It HAS to go heart and heart and spirit to spirit.

The absolute point is that no one needs to eat meat. We do it because we like it - or we're used to it - or it's what our parents and grandparents do. That doesn't mean it's right for all of us. Of that it's right for agribusiness to get rich from. Or that we have to accept the horrid conditions from which our food comes from (so that others make money),

Just sit quietly and don't rage. Pet your dog or cat. Fill your head with thoughts of love and compassion for animals and just watch your pets respond.

It's magical and natural.
(Fine, you ass. Call me a kook. I SAW with my own ears your emotion. All your stupid cussin' can't take it away!

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

I'm the wrong guy to try to get touch-feely with.

[freeflybella 0]

Fine. Fuck you.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[captain1 0]

Rip the horns off, Wipe its ass and throw it on the plate. Medium Rare!!! Oh yeah, slam the chickens against the wall. It stuns them just as good as the electircal shock. I agree with some very minimal ideals of P.E.T.A. But Dod Gamn. Exuse my reverse language.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Once again, I am a member of P.E.T.A.

People
Eating
Tasty
Animals

So don't fuck with me.

I all seriousness. This thread was started as a joke in the "Bonfire" area and was moved over here by a Greenie when some people started to get serious with their talk. But little did I know when I started this thread that there was actually a PETA thing-a-ma-bob controversy going on with KFC and some chicks.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[captain1 0]

Wow, that was a quick reply brotherman. If your ever down Florida way check in. Your always welcome.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Wow, that was a quick reply brotherman. If your ever down Florida way check in. Your always welcome.

. . . for me to poop on!!


-

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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When the arteries are impeded only slightly, it takes longer to get an erection. As the obstruction worsens, complete impotence occurs. By age 60, this affects one in four American men.

But the other three of us have more horny women to service.

-YEAH!!! Us horny women need to be serviced by carnivorous men!!! Thank GOD my man isn't a vegetarian...

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[soilman 0]

freeflybella noted

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http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?video=super_bowl_60

This ad is not going to convince any redblooded football-watching male to stop eating penis-shaped chopped meat and start eating penis-shaped squashes instead. Doesn't matter whether it is true or not that eating meat can conceivabley contribute to the develpment of erectile disfunction. The ad is not persuasive. It seems obvious that are even intentionally preaching to the choir rather than making a sincere effort to persuade someone, anyone, to substitute some plant food for some animal food.

They are wasting their contributer's money. They are actually, it seems quite clear, antagonizing people who might otherwise go vegetarian, if simply left alone.

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Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops.

[soilman 0]

In another video, they suggest that one be kind to one's pet. Or pet one's pet, or something like that. This implies approval of pet ownership -- something they say elsewhere, that they are basicaly against. These mixed messages, contradictory messages, are absurd, and influence me, and I believe most people, to discount their opinions.

If pet ownership is not generally a good idea; and i think that pet ownership is not generally a good idea, and agree with PETA when PETA says that pet ownership is basically not a good idea, then saying "be kind to your pet" is kind of like being against punishment without due process of law and saying saying be kind to your political prisoners, or being against kidnapping and saying be kind to the people you kidnap.

They are good at getting media coverage, at getting people to pay attention to them. Getting media coverage is not sufficient to persuade people who view the media. Getting people's attention is not the same as persuading them to do what you are ostensibly trying to persuade them to do.

PETA's attempts at persuading people to stop "eating meat" are so lame, that I can't help but wonder if they are really run by meat eaters.

Because I am a vegan, and because PETA gets so much publicity and because more sensible vegans like myself don't get so much publicity, when they hear that I am a vegan, many people seem to make assumptions about me, that aren't true. While this is primarily their fault, for erroneously assuming that PETA is representative of all vegans, rather than PETA's fault, it still happens, and PETA's actions are a contributory factor.

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Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops.

[soilman 0]

I have been staunchly vegan for about 35 years. For the last few years I have had a web site dedicated to informing people about whether various materials are animal, vegetable, or mineral, or some combination of thiese, in their earthly origin. You can find it via my profile. Yet I have to agree with the following comments by peacefuljeffrey

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The speakers in the first video, though, were so incredibly condescending, pompous and high-handed in their delivery of the "reasons" to be a vegetarian, that I just couldn't stand it.

And they gave bullshit reasons that I don't credit with being true.

...even though the video is sympathy-inducing, the arrogance and condescension of the PETA people is even more stomach-turning than the depictions of violence against animals.

In my opinion the way to persuade people to go vegan is to simply be vegan oneself, provide an example of a vegan lifestyle that they can emulate, if they wish to, make it as broad and fulfilling a lifestyle as possible so that people will feel good about it, feel that it is a lifestyle they would like, and educate interested people, in a natural dialogue, rather than "lecture" them, as to what you are doing to set an example, and how they can follow your example, totally or in part, if they want to. This means stressing what is on your menu. Not stressing what is off your menu.

Beyond that, I don't really think there is much that can be done. Not that the above isn't a big job.

When people see the variety of delicious things I eat, they get the picture that I am not at all deprived in what I eat. Also the amount of raw fruits and vegetables and steamed vegetable I devour, is impressive. And I don't think it hurts to tell people that I'm 56 years old and jump out of airplanes. While that isn't strictly true (I only fall out of airplanes attached to a jumper), the amount of embroidery and embellishment involved in telling people that I "jump" isn't usually enough to influence them to debate the distinction.

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Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops.

[soilman 0]

The persuasive element, the key point: being vegan doesn't cramp my style. Rather, it is part of my style. It is not intended as a limitation, rather, it something I do because I believe that, ultimately, it is broadening.

In my continuing effort to feed my face, I may have stopped eating the limited number of animal products that I had been eating, and I may have neglected making any effort to find new animals to eat, animals that I hadn't eaten before, but I have discovered lots of fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts, and seeds, to eat. Especially those luscious fruits. There are always more to discover. Just as a matter of style: which presents better style, looking for new fruits, berries, seeds, nuts, leaves, stems, shoots, and roots, growing in the trees, bushes, vines, or soil of new terrain, or looking for new animals running or crawling among the trees, bushes, and vines of new terrain?

I both (1) try to practice being practical and living on what's readily available locally, and also to (2) broaden my horizens regarding what is available in all parts of the world, and get a taste of everything. It has been a tremendous learning experience. I even, in an attempt to get more delicious foods, learned a bit about agriculture and gardening, that I wouldn't have bothered learning if I been willing to be content with eating just "what my momma feeds me." I've left my momma in the dust.

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Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops.

[freeflybella 0]

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This ad is not going to convince any redblooded football-watching male

As a creative director in advertising, I can almost guarantee you their goal is not to directly change that demographic's mind with this ad. (Or most of their campaigns for that matter.)

The humor (and vehicle - porn) allows the message to seep in - however subtley. It's called top-of-mind advertising. It creates awareness. It gets talked about. That helps the cause.

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They are actually, it seems quite clear, antagonizing people who might otherwise go vegetarian, if simply left alone.

I call BS on that. There are too many types of people in the world and too many reasons to go or not to go veg.

Nothing changes as a result of leaving people alone. Some input is required to cause change. PETA, just like you and I, offer various perspectives and avenues to the (almost) same goal.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[freeflybella 0]

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Or pet one's pet, or something like that.

Actually, that was MY post.

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These mixed messages, contradictory messages, are absurd

It was NOT a contradiction from PETA.

This is another area where I agree with PETA and disagree with them. While I don't agree that having animals as pets or 'companions' is a bad thing, I do agree that puppymill type businesses are awful, and there are too many irresponsible animal owners who allow their pets to become strays and also who don't neuter or spay their pets.

Again, the 'pet one's pet' suggestion was MINE.

PETA advocates rescuing animals as companions from shelters and research labs. Toward an end of total non-companion animal usage. Just like they advocate eating at Burger King - the new vegan burger - toward an end of total non-animal consumption.

To say all or nothing is simply ridiculous and impossible.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[freeflybella 0]

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when they hear that I am a vegan, many people seem to make assumptions about me

Is this really about you? And what people think of you?

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PETA's attempts at persuading people to stop "eating meat" are so lame, that I can't help but wonder if they are really run by meat eaters.

And are the humane treatment laws they get passed lame, too?

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[DrunkMonkey 0]

I'm off to have veal parmesan...w/ a Foie Gras appetiser. TTYL...

[soilman 0]

OK freeflybella, I think it was you who said something about petting one's pet, but in the PETA video, they said "and remember, never eat [this, that,] your dog."

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PETA advocates rescuing animals as companions from shelters and research labs. Toward an end of total non-companion animal usage.

This will not be any help toward that end. Like the Jay Leno used to say about Doritos "eat all the Doritos you want; we'll make more." Shelter operators could just as factually say: "Adopt all the dogs you want from us; we'll get more." Dog owners could just as factually say "adopt all the dogs you want, we'll make more dogs."

The shelter operators will keep the same number of cages filled with the same number of dogs, and euthanize the same number of dogs, no matter how many dogs people rescue. Irresponsible dog owners will evaluate the fact that people "adopt" dogs from shelters, as an indication that they can continue doing an inaddequate job of spaying or neutering their dogs, or continue to otherwise neglect controlling the dog population, or continue to by dogs from breeders and then decide they don't want them and abandon them or give them to shelters.

Adopting a dog may be a kindness to the individual dog, but it does nothing whatsoever toward ending the cultural phenomenum of dog ownership. Rather, it is a way of participating in the cultural phenomenum, and maintaining its continued existence.

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Is this really about you? And what people think of you?

Do you mean does what PETA does really affect how people think of me? Yes. Of course it does. When people hear, or notice, that I am vegan, some of them may assume that I am an animal rights activist, because PETA has to some extent led people to believe that animal rights activism and veganism just "go together." People who, rightly or wrongly, have disdain for animal rights activism, and also have disdain for animal rights actvists, may have disdain for me -- assuming I am an animal rights activist, even though I am not an animal rights activist.

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Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops.

[freeflybella 0]

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Shelter operators could just as factually say: "Adopt all the dogs you want from us; we'll get more."

Yup. Again, it's "multi-pronged" approach, if you will.

Campaign against puppymills.
Campaign for adopting/rescuing already abandoned animals
Campaign for responsible pet ownership. (neutering, spaying, remembering that animals are alive and you can't just move and drop them in the alley, etc.)

All of which create awareness.
All of which educate people.
All of which benefit the animals.

Yes, their ultimate goal is total non-use. It's not going to happen overnight, in our lifetime or ever. The point is to give relief to those animals that are suffering in the meantime and to not create any more suffering.

If you're looking for a pure, one-step solution to this or any issue - you're not being realistic.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[soilman 0]

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Campaign against puppymills.
Campaign for adopting/rescuing already abandoned animals
Campaign for responsible pet ownership. (neutering, spaying, remembering that animals are alive and you can't just move and drop them in the alley, etc.)

The graphs on this page, conmparing how many animals were killed for food, and how many were killed for all other reasons combined, indicate why I think that, at this time n history, changing one's diet is so far and away the simplest and most effective thing one can do to reduce animal suffering, that making any effort to do anything else is just a waste of time.

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Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops.

[freeflybella 0]

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changing one's diet is so far and away the simplest and most effective thing one can do to reduce animal suffering

Agree!

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any effort to do anything else is just a waste of time

Disagree!

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[freeflybella 0]

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People who, rightly or wrongly, have disdain for animal rights activism, and also have disdain for animal rights actvists, may have disdain for me -- assuming I am an animal rights activist, even though I am not an animal rights activist.

Face it, darling. You're an animal rights activist.

If you really believe you're not - why tell anyone you're vegan?
Why not just eat what you want - rather than making that statement or giving that explanation.

Either way, to discount the good done by animal activists by citing the radical actions of a few - and - to discount the good because those few cause you momentary inconvenience (I'm assuming you're a good guy and that people like you when they get to know you) seems to me to be at odds with compassion for the suffering of animals in the modern form of agribusiness.

But again, that's your gig. And your particular brand of activism. It's not for me to question. I'm grateful for it as I believe every little bit helps.

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Just as a matter of style: which presents better style, looking for new fruits, berries, seeds, nuts, leaves, stems, shoots, and roots, growing in the trees, bushes, vines, or soil of new terrain, or looking for new animals running or crawling among the trees, bushes, and vines of new terrain?

Why on earth would you ever think to make this about an issue of "style"? Are you saying people should choose their diet based on how "cool" it makes them seem? That's pretty pathetic. So why bring up some half-assed "competition" between vegans and omnivores? If it really came to that, I'd say there's more "style" in hunting out new animals, since unlike fruits and nuts, they can run away from your or even try to hurt you!

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[soilman 0]

peacefuljeffrey writes

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Are you saying people should choose their diet based on how "cool" it makes them seem?

Ha ha. Good way of putting it. Yes. Absolutely. That is what I think: people should choose their diet based on how cool it makes them seem, and a vegan diet is the coolest.

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...why bring up some half-assed "competition" between vegans and omnivores?

Because I like to?

Because whenever a non-vegan reacts hostilly to an amiable challenge of this sort, and the vegan, in turn, responds amiably, it demonstrates that vegans are, indeed, cooler than non-vegans?

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Animal husbandry may not be necessary. We can maintain soil quality, for plant husbandry, with green manures and cover crops.

[Zennie 0]

Eh, what the heck, I'm drunk... I'll jump in on this fray as well.

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The absolute point is that no one needs to eat meat.

I'm not totally convinced of this.

I was a vegetarian for two years. Primarily for health & spiritual reasons.

During that time I had very severe fatigue problems. A good friend of mine who is a surgeon told me he knew of several surgeons who will NOT operate on vegetarians. Why? Because their tissues are so fragile that it's often extremely difficult to suture them.

Since then I eat mainly seafood & poultry. And you know what? When I went back to just seafood my energy came back.

Humans are omnivores biologically. The difference between us and other animals is that we have a conscience. But still, the fact is, we were designed to eat meat.

We have canines (i.e. fangs for tearing) & incisors (for cutting flesh). Our eyes are centered forward on our head... the same as with most other predators. Given just our tooth configuration I think we're probably designed 75%/25% veg/meat since we also have a pretty hefty set of molars. But that's totally unscientific.

I just personally know I don't need much meat to keep going. But I *do* need it.

BTW... You wanna see some REALLY nasty arguments over vegetarianism vs. non-vegetarianism? Check out some of the Buddhist bulletin boards. Watching pissed-off Buddhists argue is good, wholesome family entertainment.

That said, I DO believe that the conditions many commercially raised animals are subjected to is abominable.

Animals don't have rights, but as a higher species with a conscience I do believe we have an ethical duty to treat them humanely.

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I'd say there's more "style" in hunting out new animals, since unlike fruits and nuts, they can run away from your or even try to hurt you!

Well, I never felt particularly threatened in my 20' blind shooting deer with a high-powered rifle at 200+ yards.

I also bowhunted for a few years. And every time I killed something I felt like an asshole.

I'm NOT saying hunters are assholes... I'm just saying I always felt guilty when I killed something. So I decided hunting wasn't for me. I freely admit to being a bit of a hippy in that respect... that's just who I am.

Now I just huck myself off of stuff. If I burn in maybe I'll make a good dinner for some lizard or something.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I just personally know I don't need much meat to keep going. But I *do* need it.

I definitely come to feel a deficit if I haven't had meat with a meal at least once in a day. I grant that this could be because on days when I don't have meat, I haven't carefully balanced my nutritional intake in a vegetarian sense to compensate. But more of this, I think, is due to missing the texture and consistency of meat, which -- I don't care how good a vegetarian cook you think you are -- you cannot substitute without using actual meat. I've had tofu chili which, while tasty, was not nearly as good as real chili (and I make kick-ass chili!).

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That said, I DO believe that the conditions many commercially raised animals are subjected to is abominable.

Animals don't have rights, but as a higher species with a conscience I do believe we have an ethical duty to treat them humanely.

I completely agree with both of these statements. They mirror my feelings on the subject.

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And every time I killed something I felt like an asshole.

I'm NOT saying hunters are assholes... I'm just saying I always felt guilty when I killed something. So I decided hunting wasn't for me. I freely admit to being a bit of a hippy in that respect... that's just who I am.

When I was a kid and had my BB guns, I followed in my brother's footsteps (but who knows where he got it from) and used to really enjoy going out into the 3 acres of woods next door to my parents' house and hunting birds and squirrels. I can definitely understand (or could then) the primal gratification that comes from stalking and bringing down prey.

But some time in junior high or so, I shot a mourning dove that was on a branch overhanging our pool patio. It fell to the concrete and flapped around, suffering and dying. I pumped several more shots into it, but for some reason it seemed to not die (I may have been reacting to reflexes, though). All I know is, I felt really really bad for having killed it, and I never did again after that.

I also now feel a kinship with things that fly, as a pilot and skydiver, and even if I felt no remorse for taking innocent life, I still would not kill birds or flying mammals.

I still feel bad about that dove!

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"