billvon 3,068 #76 July 20, 2004 >I don't see any (edit-unusual) anti-war stuff in Manhattan Project, though. "The end had begun, it would hit everyone when the chain reaction was done Big shots try to hold it back, fools try to wish it away The hopeful depend on a world without end whatever the hopeless may say" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #77 July 20, 2004 QuoteI don't see any (edit-unusual) anti-war stuff in Manhattan Project, though. RUSH - yea baby! Yeah, they're the thinking-man's rock group. Always loved 'em for that. As far as The Manhattan Project, I think it does have some scornful words for people on all sides of the war issue. "The big shots try to hold it back, fools try to wish it away. The hopeful depend on a world without end, whatever the hopeless may say." - I think this has to do with people's naivete; the hopeful, who cling to a fantasy that the world will never face dire threats that could end all life; the hopeless, who are fatalistic about it; the fools who think that "strategic arms limitation" can have an effect on the situation (i.e. so what if we reduce the number of missiles even a thousand fold if what's left can still render earth uninhabitable?) And the big shots who try to keep the whole thing under control. "Imagine a time, when it all began; in the dying days of the war, a weapon that would settle the score Whoever found it first would be sure to do their worst -- they always had before..." This is an obvious criticism of warmongers and an indictment of human nature. What I feel it neglects to consider is that one side, the NONAGGRESSORS in WWII, developed the Bomb first and foremost as a means of ending the most horrific conflict the world had yet seen. And we did not "do our worst" -- we bombed two cities; we did not go on a ruthless warpath with our new bomb, subjugating the WORLD, which we very well could have done. What would Moscow have been able to do if we built a slew of more bombs and leveled capitals all over the world? "Imagine a man, where it all began a scientist pacing the floor in each nation always eager to explore to build the best big stick, to turn the winning trick More than they bargained for." This is about Oppenheimer and the rest (even Einstein?) with a reference to Roosevelt's "Big Stick" thrown in for poetry. Yes, the world got more than it bargained for with the invention of the H bomb (and all the others to follow), but it was either that and a cold war or a lot of bloodshed through conventional means. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #78 July 20, 2004 QuoteAnd now the absolute best you can do is that he broke some UN resolutions? The kind Israel has been breaking for years? The very same resolutions right wingers ridicule as pathetic edicts from a toothless organization? I normally do not disagree with Bill but technically this was different. He actually broke the cease fire conditions. So technically it was more serious. However, this does not change the fact that this war was based on BS and badly executed...--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #79 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteI thought you guys are so proud of free speech? Damn right! And it includes criticism. No contradition in that. But this goes beyond criticism.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #80 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteI don't see any (edit-unusual) anti-war stuff in Manhattan Project, though. RUSH - yea baby! Yeah, they're the thinking-man's rock group. Always loved 'em for that. As far as The Manhattan Project, if you've got the Show of Hands video, check the animation for that song... or for those of us who happened to see that tour 4 times... how about this.. Quote We see so many tribes -- overrun and undermined While their invaders dream of lands they've left behind Better people -- better food -- and better beer Why move around the world when Eden was so near? The bosses get talking so tough And if that wasn't evil enough We get the drunken and passionate pride Of the citizens along for the ride They shoot without shame In the name of a piece of dirt For a change of accent Or the colour of your shirt Better the pride that resides In a citizen of the world Than the pride that divides When a colourful rag is unfurled ____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #81 July 20, 2004 QuoteI mean, it was to stop him helping Al Qaeda. Well, darn, there were no connections. No connection to Al Qaeda? No way. No direct connection to 9/11, I'll buy that. But no connection to Al Qaeda? Bill, you know better than that. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,106 #82 July 20, 2004 Quote QuoteI mean, it was to stop him helping Al Qaeda. Well, darn, there were no connections. No connection to Al Qaeda? No way. No direct connection to 9/11, I'll buy that. But no connection to Al Qaeda? Bill, you know better than that. - Jim Who cares? Bush doesn't. "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - G.W. Bush, 3/13/02 "I am truly not that concerned about him." - G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts, 3/13/02... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #83 July 20, 2004 QuoteWho cares? Bush doesn't. I think that maybe Bill does. He's the one who made the claim that there was no connection between the two. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #84 July 20, 2004 So what is the connection then? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #85 July 20, 2004 QuoteWho cares? Bush doesn't. "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - G.W. Bush, 3/13/02 "I am truly not that concerned about him." - G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts, 3/13/02 Bin Laden isn't the "end all, be all" of Al-Qaida. It would be great to get him as he is the spiritual figurehead and symbol, however, the organization has to be taken down. That's where you earn your money. If Bin Laden was killed today, Al-Qaida would continue. It would still be a threat and would still have to be dealt with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #86 July 20, 2004 Quote> Few people are going to stop buying Springsteen records because of his often-stated political views. Well I am doing my part. There is no way I will go to watch a Johnny Depp, Sean Penn, Whoppi Goldberg, Madonna, or Barbara Streissand movie. There are a few more on my black list but those a couple. Its not that we dissagree, its that they are rude and ignorant. There are other actors that swing to the left like Robert Deniro but that are smart enough not to push the envelope so far with their anti-American rehtoric, so as to make me hate them.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #87 July 20, 2004 QuoteThere are other actors that swing to the left like Robert Deniro but that are smart enough not to push the envelope so far with their anti-American rehtoric So Democrates are anti-American? You guys seem to hate each other more than most nations hate their neighbours. Maybe the solution would be to build a really big wall through the middle of the US dividing the place in two, put the Democrats on one side and the Republicans on the other, and just have two completely separate nations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #88 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteThere are other actors that swing to the left like Robert Deniro but that are smart enough not to push the envelope so far with their anti-American rehtoric So Democrates are anti-American? You guys seem to hate each other more than most nations hate their neighbours. Maybe the solution would be to build a really big wall through the middle of the US dividing the place in two, put the Democrats on one side and the Republicans on the other, and just have two completely separate nations. they are definately Anti-American. Johnny Depp has gone so far as to move to France. Senn Penn went to Afganistan after 9/11 to express support for the enemy. And the Democrats love the people. I don't need to talk about Michael Moore even though the clown has and American citizenship one can't get more anti-American than him. No we don't need to draw any lines. The moderate Democrats who have not thought things through should be left living among us having healthy debate. But the Michael Moore need to leave that land of opportunity and move to France or some other country with the level of Socialism they are desiring. There is no need to ruin our country when there are plenty of places in Europe in which they can feel comfortable amongst others with their Socialist mentality.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #89 July 20, 2004 I won't dispute that Moore expresses severe dislike for the current administration. But could you point out where he shows hatred for the American people? Or where he expresses socialist ideals? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #90 July 20, 2004 QuoteThere is no way I will go to watch a Johnny Depp, Sean Penn, Whoppi Goldberg, Madonna, or Barbara Streissand movie. You know, I do that just because they are bad actors/singers/comedians. Whoever thought for Comic Aid that Whoppi should even be in the same county as Robin Williams and Billy Crystal? Especially with those two just feeding off of each other. Poor thing couldn't even follow the humor, let alone attempt to add anything funny. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #91 July 20, 2004 QuoteI won't dispute that Moore expresses severe dislike for the current administration. But could you point out where he shows hatred for the American people? Or where he expresses socialist ideals? here you are just one quote, I would get more but I don't have time. In an open letter to the German people in Die Zeit, Moore asked: "Should such an ignorant people [as the United States] lead the world? Don’t go the American way when it comes to economics, jobs and services for the poor and immigrants. It is the wrong way." (David Brooks in the New York Times, June 30, 2004If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #92 July 20, 2004 QuoteSo what is the connection then? From Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheight 911 QuoteIraq and al Qaeda Deceit 43-44 Moore declares that George Bush completely fabricated an Iraq/al Qaeda connection in order to deflect attention from his Saudi masters. But consider the facts presented in Stephen F. Hayes's book, The Connection : How al Qaeda's Collaboration with Saddam Hussein Has Endangered America (N.Y.: HarperCollins, 2004). The first paragraph of the last chapter (pp. 177-78) sums up some of the evidence: Iraqi intelligence documents from 1992 list Osama bin Laden as an Iraqi intelligence asset. Numerous sources have reported a 1993 nonaggression pact between Iraq and al Qaeda. The former deputy director of Iraqi intelligence now in U.S. custody says that bin Laden asked the Iraqi regime for arms and training in a face-to-face meeting in 1994. Senior al Qaeda leader Abu Hajer al Iraqi met with Iraqi intelligence officials in 1995. The National Security Agency intercepted telephone conversations between al Qaeda-supported Sudanese military officials and the head of Iraq's chemical weapons program in 1996. Al Qaeda sent Abu Abdallah al Iraqi to Iraq for help with weapons of mass destruction in 1997. An indictment from the Clinton-era Justice Department cited Iraqi assistance on al Qaeda "weapons development" in 1998. A senior Clinton administration counterterrorism official told the Washington Post that the U.S. government was "sure" Iraq had supported al Qaeda chemical weapons programs in 1999. An Iraqi working closely with the Iraqi embassy in Kuala Lumpur was photographed with September 11 hijacker Khalid al Mihdhar en route to a planning meeting for the bombing of the USS Cole and the September 11 attacks in 2000. Satellite photographs showed al Qaeda members in 2001 traveling en masse to a compound in northern Iraq financed, in part, by the Iraqi regime. Abu Musab al Zarqawi, senior al Qaeda associate, operated openly in Baghdad and received medical attention at a regime-supported hospital in 2002. Documents discovered in postwar Iraq in 2003 reveal that Saddam's regime harbored and supported Abdul Rahman Yasin, an Iraqi who mixed the chemicals for the 1993 World Trade Center attack... Hayes is a writer for The Weekly Standard and much of his writing on the Saddam/Osama connection is available there for free; simply use the search engine and look for articles by Hayes. The preliminary staff report of the September 11 Commission states, "We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States." Some critics, including the chief prosecutor of the World Trade Center bombers, have argued that the staff report inexplicably ignores substantial evidence of Iraqi involvement in the September 11 attacks. Whether you agree with the staff report or the critics, there is no dispute that Saddam Hussein had a relationship with al Qaeda, an organization whose only activity was terrorism. Fahrenheit dishonestly pretends that there was no relationship at all. Fahrenheit shows Condoleezza Rice saying, "Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11." The audience laughs derisively. Here is what Rice really said on the CBS Early Show, Nov. 28, 2003: Oh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It’s not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York. This is a great terrorist, international terrorist network that is determined to defeat freedom. It has perverted Islam from a peaceful religion into one in which they call on it for violence. And they're all linked. And Iraq is a central front because, if and when, and we will, we change the nature of Iraq to a place that is peaceful and democratic and prosperous in the heart of the Middle East, you will begin to change the Middle East.... Moore deceptively cut the Rice quote to fool the audience into thinking she was making a particular claim, even though she was pointedly not making such a claim. And since Rice spoke in November 2003, her quote had nothing to do with building up American fears before the March 2003 invasion, although Moore implies otherwise. [Moore response: None.] "Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mirage63 0 #93 July 20, 2004 "Anyone who listens to the radio is often "held hostage" by musicians singing a "political rant": No Bill on this point you are 100% wrong. I can easily turn off my radio or change channels should I feel that the music or the speaker is disturbing me. When I pay to sit and listen I can be somewhat "held hostage" to the musician - to the point where I am willing to walk out. If I did walk out I would not ask for my money back because I believe that the musician has a right to speak, in turn I have a right to leave and no longer purchase there product. It's all pretty simple Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #94 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteI won't dispute that Moore expresses severe dislike for the current administration. But could you point out where he shows hatred for the American people? Or where he expresses socialist ideals? here you are just one quote, I would get more but I don't have time. In an open letter to the German people in Die Zeit, Moore asked: "Should such an ignorant people [as the United States] lead the world? Don’t go the American way when it comes to economics, jobs and services for the poor and immigrants. It is the wrong way." (David Brooks in the New York Times, June 30, 2004 That's one interpretation. I notice [as the United States] is in brackets. Is that because those words weren't in his quote? When you're talking about leading the world, I would think you're talking about the leaders, not the enitre populace. So again, it's critical of the administration, not the American peopls. And as far as economics, jobs, etc. for poor and immigrants, I hear lots of people on here, mainly the conservatives, complaining about the welfare system and immigrant benefits. Are they socialists? Oh, and as for your signature Quote10 out of 10 Terrorists agree, "Anybody but Bush" Al Queda endorsed Bush. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #95 July 20, 2004 QuoteOh, indeed there is a tie between Iraq and what happened on 9/11. It’s not that Saddam Hussein was somehow himself and his regime involved in 9/11, but, if you think about what caused 9/11, it is the rise of ideologies of hatred that lead people to drive airplanes into buildings in New York. This is a great terrorist, international terrorist network that is determined to defeat freedom. It has perverted Islam from a peaceful religion into one in which they call on it for violence. And they're all linked. And Iraq is a central front because, if and when, and we will, we change the nature of Iraq to a place that is peaceful and democratic and prosperous in the heart of the Middle East, you will begin to change the Middle East.... I've re-read that a few times, and I can't for the life of me see in the bit that Moore cut out where Ms Rice explains what the link between Iraq and 9/11 is, that she states exists in the first sentence. Someone help me out, please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #96 July 20, 2004 I hear lots of people on here, mainly the conservatives, complaining about the welfare system and immigrant benefits. Are they socialists? ================================= Are you seriously asking this question? Do you know any conservatives complaining about our welfare system suggesting that we raise taxes to redistribute income by the government? That is what Socialism is all about. It works well for the mindless fool to say, oh in Europe they have free health care and free education. But somebody with a minimally higher level of intelligence realizes that nothing is free and that all the money government has is money that they got from the people through taxation. They also know that if 90% of that money is coming from less than 10% or the richest people that when a liberal politician says something about taxing the poor to give to the rich that they are absolutely full of it. It doesn't happen, It simply can't.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #97 July 20, 2004 QuoteDo you know any conservatives complaining about our welfare system suggesting that we raise taxes to redistribute income by the government? Your quote from Moore doesn't say that either. You said Moore was a socialist, still wondering where you got that from. He may be, but I've never heard him say anything to that effect. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TypicalFish 0 #98 July 20, 2004 QuoteSenn Penn went to Afganistan after 9/11 to express support for the enemy. When did this happen? Sean Penn went to Afghanistan and expressed support for the Taliban and AQ?"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steel 0 #99 July 20, 2004 QuoteQuoteDo you know any conservatives complaining about our welfare system suggesting that we raise taxes to redistribute income by the government? Your quote from Moore doesn't say that either. You said Moore was a socialist, still wondering where you got that from. He may be, but I've never heard him say anything to that effect. MM has said so much and its so disheartening to listen to him that I attempt to tune him out. He is not running for president so I don't feel the need to know every foolish quote he has made. With a few searches I am sure I could come back with quotes to prove all that you ask for. But I will just say from what I have heard from him, it has been enough for me to conclude that he has nothing useful to say.If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass. Can't think of anything I need No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound. Nothing to eat, no books to read. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #100 July 20, 2004 QuoteWhen did this happen? It didn't. But do facts really matter? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
