Isaac or Ishmail... That's what it's all about.

[Air-Addict 0]

Over two thousand (or three, who knows) years ago, God spoke to Abraham and told him he would soon have a son and that his son's sons would forever be the kings of Israel. Abraham was like, "no way - my wife is too old." He decided to bump uglies with one of his slaves and she came to bear a child by the name of Ishmail. But who knew? God was right. Abraham's wife mysteriously turned up pregnant. Abraham sends away the slave with their son to never come back. After the birth of Isaac, the prophetic son, God returned to Abraham and said, "see, I told you so... now bring one of your sons up to the top of this mountain and sacrifice him to me!" Abraham is like, "Shit, I've sent Ishmail away, now I have to give Isaac to God." God, disgusted with Abraham, sent him away and did not take his son. End of story.

DOES THE LAND BELONG TO ISAAC OR ISHMAIL

[turtlespeed 221]

You were asking about trolls -

Did you read the Faq's?

Perhaps you should.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Air-Addict 0]

I shall read the FAQ then.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Someone please tell me what the fuck this thread is supposed to be here for...!

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[tunaplanet 0]

Someone please tell me what the fuck this thread is supposed to be here for***

I have no idea. I quit reading right after the poster quoted Abraham as saying, "like no way" and, "my wife is too old. He decided to bump uglies."

Something told me the rest wouldn't be much more educational nor enlightening.

Forty-two

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Over two thousand (or three, who knows) years ago, God spoke to Abraham and told him he would soon have a son and that his son's sons would forever be the kings of Israel. Abraham was like, "no way - my wife is too old." He decided to bump uglies with one of his slaves and she came to bear a child by the name of Ishmail. But who knew? God was right. Abraham's wife mysteriously turned up pregnant. Abraham sends away the slave with their son to never come back. After the birth of Isaac, the prophetic son, God returned to Abraham and said, "see, I told you so... now bring one of your sons up to the top of this mountain and sacrifice him to me!" Abraham is like, "Shit, I've sent Ishmail away, now I have to give Isaac to God." God, disgusted with Abraham, sent him away and did not take his son. End of story.

DOES THE LAND BELONG TO ISAAC OR ISHMAIL

Why would got demand a needless sacrifice of a human being? Is this some Aztec or Incan god, demanding blood and killing?

Um, where can god "send someone away" when god created everything and god is everywhere? Where could Abraham go that he would be "away" from god?

And I think that the land doesn't belong to either son since the whole deal was blown.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[pajarito 0]

Why would got demand a needless sacrifice of a human being? Is this some Aztec or Incan god, demanding blood and killing?

Man! Why did you have to go and ask a reasonable question? I thought this whole thread would just blow on by. It sounded rather silly to begin with and I didn't understand the purpose. Anyway, God didn't "need" a sacrifice. He was testing Abraham's faith. Would he have the kind of faith to sacrifice his own son for his God? He was not required to go through with it. He proved himself without having to.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Why would got demand a needless sacrifice of a human being? Is this some Aztec or Incan god, demanding blood and killing?

Man! Why did you have to go and ask a reasonable question? I thought this whole thread would just blow on by. It sounded rather silly to begin with and I didn't understand the purpose. Anyway, God didn't "need" a sacrifice. He was testing Abraham's faith. Would he have the kind of faith to sacrifice his own son for his God? He was not required to go through with it. He proved himself without having to.

God knows all and sees all, right? Knows every iota that could ever be known about you, and will ever be known about you. And yet, god can't just look inside you and know the depth of your faith? He has to demand an outright display of it that has to involve the killing of an innocent?

That is one fucked up god,
or one very flawed belief system.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[pajarito 0]

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God knows all and sees all, right? Knows every iota that could ever be known about you, and will ever be known about you. And yet, god can't just look inside you and know the depth of your faith? He has to demand an outright display of it that has to involve the killing of an innocent?

God knows your heart, the thoughts in your head, and the actions that you will take. He knows based on his influence or lack of influence within you what you will choose before you choose it. That’s different from saying that he makes you do something. He also gave you free will. You’re not a robot. You were made in God’s image but you are an imperfect being. Your tendency is towards selfishness. Without God’s input, you will “naturally” continue on that path. With it, you will “naturally” “choose” the way of God. Therefore, I believe that the test was more for Abraham’s sake. It was to strengthen his faith in God. God knew that he would have followed through with sacrificing his son and didn’t require it. Blood sacrifices were Jewish custom of the day. I can’t think of a more powerful display of love and devotion than to be willing to sacrifice your own son for another. In God’s case, he did that very thing for every person through his son Jesus.

[Zenister 0]

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God knows your heart, the thoughts in your head, and the actions that you will take. He knows based on his influence or lack of influence within you what you will choose before you choose it. That’s different from saying that he makes you do something.

if you have a script, and you wrote the script and the actors in your script are incapable of acting in any manner not in the script, in what way did you not make them do everything? In what way do they really have any choice whatsoever to act outside of the way you created them to behave?


btw i love this argument, we can do 'freewill vs predestination' all day long...but you cant have it both ways

edit: ps. Jesus's death (as written in your literature) can hardly be called a sacrifice. Its not as if it had any long term lasting effects for him in anyway, shape or form. Following the logic of your literature, he wasnt human (humans die and dont come back full functional in their original form)

charging a machine gun nest, or jumping on a grenade is hardly and act of courage or sacrifice if you simply 'respawn' whenever you wish...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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God knows your heart, the thoughts in your head, and the actions that you will take. He knows based on his influence or lack of influence within you what you will choose before you choose it. That’s different from saying that he makes you do something.

STRAWMAN. I never said he made you do anything.
I'm saying, again, "Why would god have to have a person demonstrate what's in his heart, or the depth of his faith, by demanding a sacrifice when without any action or display on the part of the person, god can know what you'd do?"

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Blood sacrifices were Jewish custom of the day. I can’t think of a more powerful display of love and devotion than to be willing to sacrifice your own son for another. In God’s case, he did that very thing for every person through his son Jesus.

I maintain that was "no big thing' for god to sacrifice "his son Jesus" because god is omnipotent, does not need any one (or any one trillion people, or else he is not god; and god, being omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent, could just will another son to replace Jesus.

There is nothing proven, to me, by god sacrificing Jesus. God makes the rules. Why would god have to have his son executed in order to forgive the sins of the world, when he himself is the one who apparently required it? Here you have god saying that this must happen in order for sin to be forgiven, but why? Because god said it had to be this way. How can you say that god was making a sacrifice -- the implication being he wasn't happy about losing his son -- when he himself was the one requiring it be done?!

That's circular, and we know that circular logic is false.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Don't expect a satisfactory explanation of this. All you'll get is meaningless doubletalk, and possibly a few quotes from (some version of) the bible.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Zenister 0]

thats ok, i love this discussion. As it (this discussion) takes place inside the christian mythos i fully expect qoutes.

if we were arguing about Norse mythology i'd be qouting the Edda's too.. there is a difference between discussing the finer points of a particular religion's mythos and trying to use that same mythos as evidence of sole truth on the nature of God.

in the later case such qoutes are rather meaningless...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Lindsey 0]

Okay, I'm not up on my theology, but I have at least read this before. Now am I totally in left field thinking that this is the point (isaac/Ishmael) where Arab and Jews split? I'm reaching, I know....it's foggy in there...lol.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[pajarito 0]

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if you have a script, and you wrote the script and the actors in your script are incapable of acting in any manner not in the script, in what way did you not make them do everything? In what way do they really have any choice whatsoever to act outside of the way you created them to behave?

In the scenario you described above, you are correct in that they would have no choice in their actions (Like what I said previously about the robots). However, that’s not what I was getting at before. I said that God made you and he knows how you’re wired. He knows your tendencies. He knows how you’ll act if given over to your sinful nature. He knows how you’ll respond if he calls you. You do have free-will, however. He’s not making you make the choices that you do. He just knows you well enough to understand what you’ll do even better than you do yourself. Free-will – Pre-destination is a complicated discussion. Some describe it as a paradox showing and understandable contradiction between the two ideas and trying to deny one by the very terms in which it is asserted. I say that it rather an antinomy. We have two principles running parallel courses. They are seemingly irreconcilable, yet both undeniable. Sort of like the energy and matter properties of light. Neither is false and there are good reasons to believe each of them. It just is what it is.

[pajarito 0]

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edit: ps. Jesus's death (as written in your literature) can hardly be called a sacrifice. Its not as if it had any long term lasting effects for him in anyway, shape or form. Following the logic of your literature, he wasnt human (humans die and dont come back full functional in their original form)

charging a machine gun nest, or jumping on a grenade is hardly and act of courage or sacrifice if you simply 'respawn' whenever you wish...

From birth till gruesome death, he was very much human as witnessed by many. He didn’t have to do that. You’re just putting limits on his sacrifice stating that it wasn’t “enough” because he was also God. Nevertheless, it was a sacrifice especially for God. A completely holy God stooped to our level, took on human form, lived a human life, was persecuted, crucified, and killed in human fashion. You’re correct in that “humans die and don’t come back full functional in their original form.” Not without God. Jesus proved that he was who he said he was. Because I’ve got him in me, when I die, I’ll be restored with a new body as well when I die. Not because of my capabilities as a human but because I trust Jesus.

[peregrinerose 0]

I've wondered about this whole free will/predestination thing a lot. For example, when someone dies, say killed by a drunk driver, their family rationalizes it by saying 'it was God's will' that the person be taken at that time and in that way. So, if it was God's will, then the drunk driver was doing God's will, and so should not be held culpable for his actions since they were determined by God anyway, after all, someone had to do the deed. But if it was God's will for the person to be killed by the drunk driver, then did the drunk driver truly have free choice of drinking then driving?

Not trying to troll, just one of those interesting philosophical concepts that I could never truly wrap my brain around.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[pajarito 0]

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STRAWMAN. I never said he made you do anything.
I'm saying, again, "Why would god have to have a person demonstrate what's in his heart, or the depth of his faith, by demanding a sacrifice when without any action or display on the part of the person, god can know what you'd do?"

My youngest boy is 2 years old. I pretty much understand and can predict what he’s going to do based on his previous actions. He’s always getting into trouble. I’m not controlling him when he does those things. I just pretty much can see them coming. However, I demand obedience when the time comes in certain instances. It’s for his own good. By the way, my Strawman is glued together pretty tightly.

[peregrinerose 0]

Didn't Jesus know in advance he would be resurrected? So he didn't have anything to lose to die, which makes it a non sacrifice. I could be wrong in this, which is why I'm asking.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[rehmwa 2]

If it was a troll post, it certainly worked.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[pajarito 0]

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I've wondered about this whole free will/predestination thing a lot. For example, when someone dies, say killed by a drunk driver, their family rationalizes it by saying 'it was God's will' that the person be taken at that time and in that way. So, if it was God's will, then the drunk driver was doing God's will, and so should not be held culpable for his actions since they were determined by God anyway, after all, someone had to do the deed. But if it was God's will for the person to be killed by the drunk driver, then did the drunk driver truly have free choice of drinking then driving?

Not trying to troll, just one of those interesting philosophical concepts that I could never truly wrap my brain around.

The drunk driver wasn’t necessarily “doing God’s will.” It could be that God in fact “took” the person that was killed and used the “natural and predictable actions” of the drunk driver to accomplish it. It could also be that God used that tragic incident to influence others to come to God or to not drive drunk. On the other hand, the person killed could have not been a believer and God finally gave them over to their own desires/actions. He could have just allowed things to unfold as they did and that was simply all the time that person had to make a decision to believe or not believe. All of our times are limited. You never know when it will be your time. All we can do is be prepared.

Edit to add for clarification: He didn't necessarily "make" the drunk driver do it. He could have just "allowed" the events to unfold as they did. It's not as important that the person died as to whether or not he/she was prepared to die.

[pajarito 0]

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Didn't Jesus know in advance he would be resurrected? So he didn't have anything to lose to die, which makes it a non sacrifice. I could be wrong in this, which is why I'm asking.

He did know he would be resurrected. However, you don't consider it a "sacrifice" that he suffered and died the human death that he did while he was here? Also, if you try and conceptualize the enormity of the holiness of God and realize that he did that at all (stoop to our level in order to reconcile with us), do you not see the huge sacrifice there?

[peregrinerose 0]

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He did know he would be resurrected. However, you don't consider it a "sacrifice" that he suffered and died the human death that he did while he was here? Also, if you try and conceptualize the enormity of the holiness of God and realize that he did that at all (stoop to our level in order to reconcile with us), do you not see the huge sacrifice there?

I don't see suffering and dying as a great sacrifice when you know that you're coming right back to life. There are many things that I believe in, and if my torture and death would benefit those beliefs or cause a far greater good and I knew that I had nothing to lose, since after all, I'm coming right on back as the same person I was before, then yes I'd do it. And yes I do know what some torture to a lesser degree can be like (obviously without dying
I'm undecided about the sacrifice of God's part, again, he knew that his son was coming back, since he wouldn't truly let his son die and stay dead, so there isn't a loss there. For a sacrifice truly to happen, something has to be given up for a greater good. In this case I don't see what was given up, only gained. God in this case gained believers and still kept his son at his side, so it was a win-win situation for him.

Though I may not agree with the beliefs of others, I really do try to understand them, to see where you're coming from, and the only way to do that is to question.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[pajarito 0]

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I don't see suffering and dying as a great sacrifice when you know that you're coming right back to life. There are many things that I believe in, and if my torture and death would benefit those beliefs or cause a far greater good and I knew that I had nothing to lose, since after all, I'm coming right on back as the same person I was before, then yes I'd do it. And yes I do know what some torture to a lesser degree can be like (obviously without dying

That seems somewhat easy to say but I wager something very much more difficult to follow through with in reference to you willingly giving in to that kind of torture and death. Jesus was a human being just like you and me. He endured persecution as well as one of the most gruesome forms of torture and death that I can imagine “willingly.” He felt the same pain and agony that you or I would feel and, in his time here, sacrificed tremendously because of his love for us.

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I'm undecided about the sacrifice of God's part, again, he knew that his son was coming back, since he wouldn't truly let his son die and stay dead, so there isn't a loss there. For a sacrifice truly to happen, something has to be given up for a greater good. In this case I don't see what was given up, only gained. God in this case gained believers and still kept his son at his side, so it was a win-win situation for him.

I agree with your definition of sacrifice above. I say that God became man, ultimately separated himself from his holiness while in that form, and gave up all that for you. You must be pretty important person in his eyes.

I understand that you don’t buy this but it is an interesting conversation. I respect your opinion. Most of the topics discussed here are very trivial and boring. This, in my opinion, is one of the most interesting and important. Ultimately, it is the most intriguing topic as it deals with death and the “unknown” of many.

[peregrinerose 0]

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That seems somewhat easy to say but I wager something very much more difficult to follow through with in reference to you willingly giving in to that kind of torture and death. Jesus was a human being just like you and me. He endured persecution as well as one of the most gruesome forms of torture and death that I can imagine “willingly.” He felt the same pain and agony that you or I would feel and, in his time here, sacrificed tremendously because of his love for us.

I'll give you that what I went through definitely wasn't willingly and was far less painful from a brutality stance (at least from what I am guessing that thorny crowns, nails, whips, etc would be like), but I also endured 17 years of hell and prefer not to go into great detail publicly on this one. That's just a little too personal. However, I would do it again if it would save the world, or at least the souls of the world, wouldn't anyone who is truly consumed by their beliefs do the same? Certain Muslim extremists do it daily with their suicide bombers.

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I agree with your definition of sacrifice above. I say that God became man, ultimately separated himself from his holiness while in that form, and gave up all that for you. You must be pretty important person in his eyes.

My only question here is that the separation from the holiness was a temporary thing, and he knew it was a temporary thing, and it didn't demean him in any way as an all powerful, knowing, caring being. So no true loss.

I don't know about me in particular being important, as Christianity (and most other religions) teach some degree of tolerance and that we are all equal in the eyes of God. Even my own moral code adheres to that basic tenet.

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I understand that you don’t buy this but it is an interesting conversation. I respect your opinion. Most of the topics discussed here are very trivial and boring. This, in my opinion, is one of the most interesting and important. Ultimately, it is the most intriguing topic as it deals with death and the “unknown” of many.

I agree completely with you here. And I love discussing religion with you because I've never seen you be anything but respectful of other views and you do your best to explain things as logically as possible to make your point without ever insulting the other person. I have a lot of respect for you for that one. And for your philosophy, though we may disagree on religious stances, our ethics as humans and how we treat others seems to be quite similar. It's nice to have a philisophical debate with someone every once in a while.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda