i STILL don't understand why people detest Michael Moore

[Newbie 0]

so i watch F 9/11. And yes, it's biased and skewed, it's certainly got his own agenda there, obviously. This has all been discussed to the Nth degree. But we all knew this before it even came out.

It doesn't matter whether you are the most vehement Moore supporter, or hater - what he's trying to do is get people to think about what is going on. To question things. Here is Britney saying "i think we should just trust in our president and not question anything no matter what". That's not skillful, biased editing, that's what she said. To me, the people that so vehemently hate Moore, represent Britney in that segment. They either don't want, or don't care, to question anything. They are happy in their lot and believe they are right in their beliefs and either don't care about what's going on outside their sphere, or are not open to the idea of questioning things.

Is this why people hate Moore so much, because he makes you think about things that maybe just aren't all rosy and fine? Moore obviously DETESTS the current administration - but if you ask yourself why, it's because he cares about the consequences of the actions these people make as it affects the entire country. How does that make you unpatriotic, i don't get it, i would have thought it were the opposite?
Someone who cares so much about how their country is perceived outside of it's cosy boundaries is more patriotic than someone waving a flag but who has no idea where Iraq even is, aren't they? Does blind, blinkered following equal patriotism? Maybe it does, but to me that's weird.

Lastly, why is it everytime i read a criticism of Moore's work, whichever we might be talking about, book or film, people seem to mention his size? Yes, he's fat but since when does that have anything to do with anything? It's almost like school ground vindictivness, rather than substantiated arguement.

I'm not a Moore lover, nor a hater, and i take him with a big grain of salt. I like the fact he makes me think though, pure and simple. Anyone that takes anything in a documentary of any kind to be gospel truth is perhaps kidding themselves i think - after all, doesn't everyone have an agenda? Perhaps it's those reasons why people dislike him so much, they take what he is saying as gospel, and don't look past that fact, I really don't know, but i hope someone will help answer this question with a little more detail than the usual "because he's a fat piece of lying sh*t" type answer.

Thanks.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Jimbo 0]

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"i think we should just trust in our president and not question anything no matter what".

What if she had said that followed with - "Ha! What a joke that would be!" It's still what she said, but with an entirely different meaning. It seems that MM is quite familiar with that tactic.

Getting people to think is a good thing. Getting people to think by feeding them a foundation of lies, half-truths, and misdirection is a bad thing.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[beowulf 1]

It is too diffucult to believe anything he says in his movies. He intentionally uses editing to misdirect people into believing that someone said something or did something the didn't say or do. He takes facts and showcases them in a way that makes them look entirely different. The facts may be true, but the presentation of them makes them look entirely different.

[Trent 0]

Everything else aside, I thought the movie was actually not that great. I damn near fell asleep for a while. My biggest problem with it, is that people who do not pay attention to what is going on, or to people too dumb to do research on their own... it can and probably will influence their votes, based on 1/2 truths, long reaches, and sometimes just blatant out of context facts. After seeing it, that is my opinion of what the movie was really intended for... after, of course, MM's own self-promotion. I've seen BFC, and Roger & Me as well and I really REALLY dislike how he treats people when talking to them, or using soundbites to prove a point. He comes from what I call the "Jerry Springer" school of argument:

Person A: "I think that Saddam has had WMDs, and we should go find out if he still has them"
MM: "Did you just say, 'I think Saddam had WMDs, and... still has them'??? OOOOOOHHHHH BUSTED!!! I GOT YOU. BLOOD IS THICKER THAN WATER!! OOOOH"

Of course this doesn't allow us to see what's really going on, or give the other guy the opportunity to defend what he said.

He's definitely a lamer.

Oh, hello again!

[Darius11 12]

Simple people do not like to hear the truth specially if it makes them look stupid.

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Getting people to think by feeding them a foundation of lies, half-truths, and misdirection is a bad thing.

Our own president has done this, he used it to make people want war, but it's ok for him if he is misleading us.
It's just funny when people say he lies about what people say. It's right there in front of you he doesn't make it up. If you read any of his books he also has Facts figures. Do you think if his opponents had proof that he was making shit up they wouldn’t bring those up.

You know what was really funny to me was when Matt Lauer was asking OBL brother if he thinks the movie points to facts. HOW FUCKING STUPID IS THAT? It is just sad that people are acutely taking OBL brother word over MM. When I saw that interview I wanted to vomit how low will they go.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Jib 0]

Try here:

http://www.gop.com/News/Read.aspx?ID=4386

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[turtlespeed 221]

Here is a perfect example:

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so i watch F 9/11. (Eddited)But we all knew this before it even came out.

It doesn't matter whether you are the (eddited) people to think about what is going on. To me, (eddited) They either don't want, or don't care, to question anything. They are happy in their lot (eddited).

Is this why people hate Moore so much, (eddited)but if you ask yourself why, it's because(eddited) that make you unpatriotic,(Eddited)

(random edditing)Someone who cares so much about their flag, has no idea where Iraq even is. Does following equal patriotism? Maybe it does, but to me that's weird. (No Kidding)

Lastly, why is it everytime I mention his size? Yes, he's fat but since when does that have anything to do with anything? It's almost like arguement.

I'm a Moore lover, and i take him with a big grain of salt. I like the fact he makes me pure and simple. Anyone of any kind is kidding themselves i think - after all, doesn't everyone have an agenda? Perhaps it's those reasons why they take what he is saying as gospel, and don't look past that fact.
Thanks.

Nooo, Thank you.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[beowulf 1]

It's all true the facts are right there. He actually said those things.







Just not in that order.

[Ron 10]

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so i watch F 9/11. And yes, it's biased and skewed

It doesn't matter, (edit) what he's trying to do is get people to think about (edit) Britney.

To me, the people (edit) so vehemently hate (edit)Britney (edit).

(edit) i don't get it (edit) to me that's weird.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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[Zennie 0]

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Everything else aside, I thought the movie was actually not that great.

I agree with you on that point and said so... I even said I didn't think it deserved to win the Palm D'Or at Cannes. BFC was a much better movie... just from an entertainment perspective.

Unfortunately when I then went on to list a few things that I found positive about the movie a lot of folks seemed to forget that and lit a flamethrower under my butt.

*sigh*

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Zennie 0]

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Is this why people hate Moore so much, because he makes you think about things that maybe just aren't all rosy and fine?

I think folks hate him because he does play fast & loose with information. And yes, those who would like you to think things are A-OK don't like the fact that he shows many things which demonstrate that things most definitely are NOT.

Folks that want you to think a certain way want a monopoly on information dissemination. Anybody who has access to a wide audience with a countering view is perceived as a threat and reviled (hence Disney & the rest of mainstream Hollywood running from him like he had the plague).

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Does blind, blinkered following equal patriotism?

For many people, especially those within this administration and those who most vehemently support it, the answer is "Yes".

I don't think MM intentionally MIS-directs. That is, I don't believe his thought process is "I know this direction is wrong, but I'm going to lead folks there anyway."

I do believe he does actively try to direct folks toward his personal conclusions through skillful editing. Certain radio talk show hosts on the right are equally skilled at this tactic.

Direction and misdirection are two different things. I don't think either MM or Rush intentionally lie.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[peregrinerose 0]

As far as I'm concerned Michael Moore is a letter to the editor in film format. He uses information slanted to support his particular stance and happens to do it in a way that people will actually pay to see it. But it is no more informational than a letter to the editor in the local paper.

Though I disagree with him on a lot of things, I don't detest him, he can say whatever he wants to, it's his opinion, and he admits it is his opinion, I don't see what's so wrong with that. Sure, the lemmings of America are often too mindless to question what they hear and see, but not much I can individually do about that.

So the guy's fat, I don't think that matters a bit. Who cares about that? Now what I do think is funny is largish Dr. Phil giving weight loss advice, but that's a whole other thread unto itself
Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[billvon 2,998]

>So the guy's fat, I don't think that matters a bit. Who cares about that?

There are people who seem very threatened by him, and seem to need every angle they can to pull him down. Calling him fat is just one of them. Ironically, the more stink that gets raised about him, the more money his movies make - and the longer he will remain a success. If a day ever comes where people could care less what sorts of films he makes, he will fade away into obscurity.

[JohnRich 4]

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i STILL don't understand why people detest Michael Moore

It's very simple: He lies, and calls it a "documentary", i.e. the truth. That's despicable.

If he called it a "spoof" or a "comedy", then it wouldn't be a problem.

The 911 Commission report shows that virtually everything in his movie is a lie.

[Zennie 0]

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The 911 Commission report shows that virtually everything in his movie is a lie.

Virtually everything? Did you even WATCH this movie?

9/11 never happened?

Dubya didn't sit frozen like a deer in the headlights for over 7 minutes when told our nation was under attack?

Dubya & Cheney don't have financial ties to Saudi Arabia & the Bin Laden family?

All those images of the suffering in Iraq (both by the Iraqi citizens and our soldiers) were manufactured?

Bush never said "Some people may call you the elite... I call you my base..." to a bunch of fat cats (he did... and that clip was NOT taken out of context... I checked)?

Iraq HAD WMD? Iraq had a hand in 9/11? Iraq harbored Al Qaida operatives & training camps? Iraq doesn't have massive reserves of OIL? We aren't handing out all manner of lucrative "rebuilding" contracts to large US corporations... such as Halliburton?

Again... YES... the movie is MM's spin on things and should be taken with a grain of salt... but nothing in there has been demonstrated to be factually untrue.

In fact... that's why I was for the most part unimpressed with the movie... it didn't tell me much that I didn't know already.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[crwtom 0]

hadn't seen the movie yet - life's just been just too busy.

It's quite notable though that there are much more intense reactions from the
right towards artists on the left doing their thing rather than the other way
around.

Makes me wonder - if a republican ever became King of America, would he/she
shoot their own jester on the first day "in office"?

Cheers, T

*******************************************************************
Fear causes hesitation, and hesitation will cause your worst fears to come true

[Fast 0]

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The 911 Commission report shows that virtually everything in his movie is a lie.

Virtually everything? Did you even WATCH this movie?

9/11 never happened?

Dubya didn't sit frozen like a deer in the headlights for over 7 minutes when told our nation was under attack?

Dubya & Cheney don't have financial ties to Saudi Arabia & the Bin Laden family?

All those images of the suffering in Iraq (both by the Iraqi citizens and our soldiers) were manufactured?

Bush never said "Some people may call you the elite... I call you my base..." to a bunch of fat cats (he did... and that clip was NOT taken out of context... I checked)?

Iraq HAD WMD? Iraq had a hand in 9/11? Iraq harbored Al Qaida operatives & training camps? Iraq doesn't have massive reserves of OIL? We aren't handing out all manner of lucrative "rebuilding" contracts to large US corporations... such as Halliburton?

Again... YES... the movie is MM's spin on things and should be taken with a grain of salt... but nothing in there has been demonstrated to be factually untrue.

In fact... that's why I was for the most part unimpressed with the movie... it didn't tell me much that I didn't know already.

Most of them things you have absolutley no way of proving. The only thing you can do is sit and listen to the right and left wing argue about what is true while reading some report from some other politition about what he thinks really happend.

Most polititions and people in government spin the truth to what they want to hear. Basing anything on what they say as truth is just being ignorant to the fact that BOTH sides have an agenda.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[happythoughts 0]

Because he has a history of being a totally biased butthead from the beginning of his "career".

Think about Roger and Me.

MM goes around making inflammatory statements about a person.
MM practices "ambush journalism". Asks questions with no other intent than to harass.
The CEO of a major corp gets tired of the harassment.
The CEO has huge numbers of people to talk to for business reasons. Why should he make time for a journalist? Especially an antagonist journalist?
MM will edit any replies to fit his agenda.
MM will assume evil intent. Example, RS must have something to hide or he would do the interview. Oooh, a conspiracy.

MM has a history of being a dick.

He has the witch-hunt philosophy of 60 Minutes without as much journalistic integrity as The National Inquirer.

[livendive 8]

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It's quite notable though that there are much more intense reactions from the
right towards artists on the left doing their thing rather than the other way
around.

Artists from the right? You must be joking. :-)

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Trent 0]

I'll answer this one just because I can...

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Virtually everything? Did you even WATCH this movie?

Yes

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9/11 never happened?

It sure did. That's not what people are talking about when people say the movie is full of shit though.

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Dubya didn't sit frozen like a deer in the headlights for over 7 minutes when told our nation was under attack?

It looked to me like he was kinda shocked and was thinking about what to do. He could have excused himself, he could have run out of the room, but he didn't. I wonder what the presidential reaction to Pearl Harbor was the moment it happened? That is such a stupid thing to pick at.

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Dubya & Cheney don't have financial ties to Saudi Arabia & the Bin Laden family?

Name any big oil person or company that doesn't have ties to Saudi Arabia and/or the Bin Laden family companies.

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All those images of the suffering in Iraq (both by the Iraqi citizens and our soldiers) were manufactured?

They looked real, but I bet that some of those interviews were done under false pretenses or edited. I also doubt that the Iraq (kite-flying) pre-invasion was all happy and peaceful like MM portrayed it.

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Bush never said "Some people may call you the elite... I call you my base..." to a bunch of fat cats (he did... and that clip was NOT taken out of context... I checked)?

He did say it, and it was a joke. It was funny to me... given that the entire left thinks that Bush is a billionaire baby even while they're supporting someone like Kerry.

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Iraq HAD WMD?

Technically, yes, they did...

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Iraq had a hand in 9/11?

Did someone claim that they were directly involved with September 11th? Or just that they supported terror?

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Iraq harbored Al Qaida operatives & training camps?

I bet they probably did... Zarqawi et al.

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Iraq doesn't have massive reserves of OIL?

Yes, they did... and it was going well for the French and UN under the oil for food program, right?

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We aren't handing out all manner of lucrative "rebuilding" contracts to large US corporations... such as Halliburton?

Why shouldn't we? We're paying the bill.

Oh, hello again!

[Fast 0]

For clarification Trent is replying to questions asked by Zennie

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Zennie 0]

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For clarification Trent is replying to questions asked by Zennie

To JohnRich.

I don't mind Trent answering the questions so much... at least Trent isn't making unsupportable blanket statements about whether the "vast majority" of the information presented in the movie is or is not truthful based on the 9/11 report.

The 9/11 report refuted nothing... except POSSIBLY the timeline and status of commercial air flights when the Bin Laden's were shipped out of the country .... WITHOUT first being questioned by the FBI.

Trent & I interpret the facts differently... find certain things important and others unimportant... but I doubt we're too far off on agreeing as to what the fundamental facts are.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Ron 10]

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Virtually everything? Did you even WATCH this movie?

I saw it...It is a load of tripe.

The standard "Bush stole the election" lies.

Saying that the Supreme Court put GW in the WH cause his dady put them on the SC...UH, they are on for life. Why would they? And he did say exactly that.

And what about the part where not ONE Senator would sign the paperwork needed to contest the SC ruling?

The 9/11 attacks didn't show ONE picture of the towers....Selective editing. The event was so important, but it didn't warrent even ONE picture?

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Dubya didn't sit frozen like a deer in the headlights for over 7 minutes when told our nation was under attack?

Would you have prefered he screamed like a little girl and ran out? If you bother to LOOK at him you can tell he is thinking as harder than most....Would he have been able to think better in another room? maybe, maybe not....Do I think that if he WAS really need they would pull him out? Yes.

I was in shock when I was told...In fact I though my SGT was lying to me...Were you cool and ready to make choices that would effect MILLIONS?

7 min is nothing. I just read the 9/11 report...I thinka little over an hour from the first attack to the President being in the air, and the VP in the bunker and getting F-15 airborne was pretty damed good.

The little BS part on why did the WH when they released his records black out the part about the other person listed...Well last I checked the other guy was not being questioned...I would hope that if a guy I served with was ever questioned and they released his records they would black MY name out.

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Dubya & Cheney don't have financial ties to Saudi Arabia & the Bin Laden family?

The financial ties....Uh, guess what? They are all shaky, and he passes them off as facts...

The Saudis do have financial ties to us...Quess what? So does Japan and about a hundred other countries.

Plus half of the financial stuff was about buisness...Guess what? Thats life.

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All those images of the suffering in Iraq (both by the Iraqi citizens and our soldiers) were manufactured?

The kid flying the kite, and the others all happy prior to the invasion...You find it funny that he didn't show him gassing his own people, or his sons raping and killing people for sport....Or people being fed into meat grinders, thrown off of buildings, ect?

I also find it funny that he shows Saudi Arabia beheading a guy, but skips right over Saddams human relations violations. (Such as his son telling his potential Olympic team that if they don't win he will kill them).

He also does not show any pictures of kids playing AFTER the invasion...what they are not playing now?

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Bush never said "Some people may call you the elite... I call you my base..." to a bunch of fat cats (he did... and that clip was NOT taken out of context... I checked)?

And Kerry didn't play to the industrial workers in Detroit? Kerry does not try to act like "A man of the people"..(even though he has several MILLION dollar homes). Gee thats what you do when you give a political speech...you try to win the audience.

Then he goes on about how the Military targets poor kids....Duh!!! They have been doing that for 200 years, now its a big issue? I didn't hear complaints while kids used the military to go to school (Such as I did).

Also what fucktard does not know that when you sign up FOR THE ARMED FORCES you might have to go to combat? Why do you think they carry guns and train you to shoot them?

Its all good while you collect a paycheck and the college money, but when you have to do what YOU SIGNED UP TO DO....And that you SWORE to do "Obey the lawful orders of the Officers above me, and the President of the United States"....Those kids can't say they didn't know....I knew. And I doubt I am that much smarter than them.

The Capital Hill crowd not wanting to sign their sons off to go to combat....Would you send yours? And last I checked we have a Volunteer force and the KIDS would have to want to go.

Why didn't the law makes READ the laws? Whose damn fault is that? Do you sign contracts before you sign them? Did only the Democrats have a problem reading the laws before they passed them?

I will give him credit for the ice cream truck stunt...It was funny, but not effective.

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Iraq HAD WMD?

You have EVIDENCE that we knew he didn't have WMD's?

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Iraq had a hand in 9/11?

Last year did you have PROOF he didn't?

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Iraq harbored Al Qaida operatives & training camps?

Again? Got Proof he didn't? Did you a year ago?

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Iraq doesn't have massive reserves of OIL?

Duh.

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We aren't handing out all manner of lucrative "rebuilding" contracts to large US corporations... such as Halliburton?

Large companies that can actually handle the contracts? you mean those companies? Or would you rather give the contracts to companies that can't handle the scope of the contract and put US men and women in danger or more discomfort?

Maybe you would rather give the contracts to countries like France who had buisness dealings selling military parts and technica equipment to Iraq against the Sanctions?

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Again... YES... the movie is MM's spin on things and should be taken with a grain of salt... but nothing in there has been demonstrated to be factually untrue.

And none of it has been PROVEN TRUE in the context that he spun it either.

I guess you KNOW that the Justices gave Jr. the election just as payback to Daddy Bush like MM claims?

Or that there was a large conspiracy to discount only Democratic voters? How about them Military Ballots Gore tried to throw out huh? Why was it that only Democrats had a problem using a punch to push through a piece of paper and were "confused"?

It was at best an EDITORIAL...It was not a Documentry by any means....One that was timed to do the most damge to Bush as possible.

But the unlearned, uncaring masses will let it effect their opinion.

Would you support a movie made in the same fashion but with a Republican spin? It would be considered as "Big Buisness" being supported by Bush to slam Kerry....Just like his claims Cheney "gave" contracts to Halliburton. You know what it would take to contest those contracts? A letter....Why did no one send that letter?

Its his right to make any movie he wants...But to claim this is anything but an Editorial to try and put Bush in a bad light filled with half truths or truths taken out of context is stupid.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[happythoughts 0]

For the supporters of MM, let me pose a question.

If you wished to have an impartial journalist interview you to present the facts of an event, would you want MM to do it?

What if he disagreed with you? Would it be fair and accurate? Would it be sound-bite edited to discredit you?

[PhillyKev 0]

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If you wished to have an impartial journalist interview you to present the facts of an event, would you want MM to do it?

hell no.

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What if he disagreed with you? Would it be fair and accurate? Would it be sound-bite edited to discredit you?

you are correct 100%.

MM distorts the truth. He doesn't out right lie, or make stuff up. He portrays things from an angle akin to seeing it through a prism. You're only seeing one of the colors that make up the light source (one of the many sides of a story that when combined expose the truth).

I find some of his points amusing, some close to or actually true, and others annoying at how twisetd they are. But I'm glad there's someone out there that's willing to stand up, take this criricism that he receives with a smile and keep on going. He's not doing anything that the RNC, the DNC, the Bush campaign or the Kerry campaign are doing. He's just doing it to a different degree.

When he shows clips of Bush playing golf and gardening while playing "Vacation Getaway" it's satirical. I find it amusing. Was Bush completely absent from and not doing a damn thing while he was away from Washington? No. Was he hard at work the entire time, and as effective as he would have been if he were in the oval office? No. The truth is somewhere in between.

I'm looking forward to seeing the "Michael Moore Hates America" documentary that I saw advertised. It should be entertaining. The clip I saw showed a guy ambushing Moore in the street and asking him why he hates America.

The bottom line is that Moore has his own artistic style. He is not portraying facts, and he doesn't claim to be. He uses some particular facts and figures to shape an overall view. His view. And that's all he ever has claimed to be doing. He's hated because his art is controversial as all controversial artists are hated by someone.