Kerry on Iran

[Darius11 12]

Edit.

The web site i was pointing too was just one that i found on Google as i could not remember the young girls name.

I read the contents of it and i did not like it.
Thats why i deleted it.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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I don't want you to think that I support Israel or any side in the middle east. Actually, I understand several historical facts about Israel.

Palestine -
First, Israel was created by the French and British after they divided up the middle east after WWII, 1948. The land that the Israelis occupy was originally Palestinian, so their anger is understandable. The British gave Palestinian land to European jews. When the Palestinians objected, they put them in camps.

Terrorism -
Actually, some Israeli officials are regarded as terrorists for their involvement of the bombing of British citizens in a hotel. They are not allowed in England for that reason.

Israel drops 500lb bombs, Palestinians drive them. The delivery technique is different, the results the same. It is a war. The definition of good/bad, terrorist/good-guy for one side is pointless.

I don't support Israel or Iran. I think it is a nasty situation that may never be resolved. It isn't just Israel. The arabs invade each other for no reason on a regular basis too.

My original point was that Israel will probably bomb an Iranian nuclear plant. I don't think the US should be in the middle of it.

As far as Iran goes, they lost the right to complain about money (or the concept of "rights" or "justice") when they took over the embassy.

Thank you that is an honest opinion filled with facts that I can agree with.
Your post is just facts and truth. Thank you for posting that.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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I also can't find one instance of Israel killing American citizens....

Rachel Corrie


Do I think it is wrong to kill any innocent people? Yes I do.
But do I understand why they use Suicide bombers? Yes I do it is called desperation

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Ron 10]

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In Reply To
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I also can't find one instance of Israel killing American citizens....

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Rachel Corrie


Do I think it is wrong to kill any innocent people? Yes I do.
But do I understand why they use Suicide bombers? Yes I do it is called desperation

OK. Theres one. And unless I recall they didn't go out that day and try to find and kill an American to try and advance a cause.

Can you say the same about Muslims?

Desperation is no excuse for killing unarmed non-combatants because you don't like the way they worship.

Its wrong.

Do you not understand why the Us supports Israel over the Palistines?

Simple english....Jews, even the most militant extremists, do go around saying "Death to America". Muslims extremists do.

If I had to side with one of two sides....One likes me, and the other wants me dead.....Well, what would you do?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

I agree with what you're saying, Ron. But why do we HAVE to pick sides?

EDIT to add...

And in actuality, we picked sides first, that is the main reason for the "Death to America" chanting.

[Darius11 12]

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Desperation is no excuse for killing unarmed non-combatants because you don't like the way they worship.

Its wrong.

True it's wrong so is killing Palestinians do you not see that. Do you not see it is wrong to kill Palestinians also?

What gets people to become suicide bombers is not that they hate Jews. It's there lives have been changed by the Israelis, There children have been killed, They are policed, There freedom has been taken away. Do you not see that.
How would you fight back if the Israelis killed your family?
Keep in mind you have no weapon the only way you can get revenge is by killing your self.
Not saying it is a good idea but I can understand why some do it.


The reason that SOME Muslims do yell death to America is because we support Israel, they weren't yelling death to America then we said fuck them. Their Hatred for us is mainly because of out support of Israel.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

Well I am out of here.

Everyone have a good weekend.
Thank you for your posts and discussions


Peace

Darius

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[happythoughts 0]

There is two parts to this problem. Both are based in cultural background.

The Israelis have, basically, a European culture. For this reason, the US can identify with them. Style of dress, technology, lifestyle. Israel is an island of western culture in the middle east.

The muslims believe, correctly, that western ideas would destroy their culture.

Womens rights, voting, property rights. Use of alchohol. Style of dress. The portrayal of sex in the media. In their view, the west is in a state of moral decay.

The US does support Israel in the middle east. That causes friction. If the US withdrew that support, the arab world would still hate the US.

[Jimbo 0]

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Keep in mind you have no weapon the only way you can get revenge is by killing your self.

Wow. That's brilliant!

Too bad for them that it's not a sustainable method of attack.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[falxori 0]

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In Reply To
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I don't want you to think that I support Israel or any side in the middle east. Actually, I understand several historical facts about Israel.

Palestine -
First, Israel was created by the French and British after they divided up the middle east after WWII, 1948. The land that the Israelis occupy was originally Palestinian, so their anger is understandable. The British gave Palestinian land to European jews. When the Palestinians objected, they put them in camps.

Terrorism -
Actually, some Israeli officials are regarded as terrorists for their involvement of the bombing of British citizens in a hotel. They are not allowed in England for that reason.

Israel drops 500lb bombs, Palestinians drive them. The delivery technique is different, the results the same. It is a war. The definition of good/bad, terrorist/good-guy for one side is pointless.

I don't support Israel or Iran. I think it is a nasty situation that may never be resolved. It isn't just Israel. The arabs invade each other for no reason on a regular basis too.

My original point was that Israel will probably bomb an Iranian nuclear plant. I don't think the US should be in the middle of it.

As far as Iran goes, they lost the right to complain about money (or the concept of "rights" or "justice") when they took over the embassy.

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Thank you that is an honest opinion filled with facts that I can agree with.
Your post is just facts and truth. Thank you for posting that.

i have no problem talking with you about the situation and i have no problem with you having different views.

but stating that his post is "just facts and truth" is an insult to intelegence...

israel was not created by france and england, but by the UN is nov. 47. the UN has divided the land into two states. israel accepted, the arabs declared war.
the land was never "palestinian" it was turkish, then british and then israeli. there was never a palestine that was conquered.
and you know it very well.
"they put them in camps" ???
who put who in camps?
when israel was founded in 48, some arabs chose to stay and became israeli citizens, those who chose to flee into the jordanian controlled west bank, egyptian controlled gaza or to lebanon were put in refugee camps, but not by israel.
as you know when israel was founded many arab jews (from moroco, iraq, iran, yemmen, etc) were driven out of their home and were refugees in israel (they were in temporary camps for years). the difference is that israel (a young state with no natural resources) took care of them. the arab world chose to keep the palestinians in camps for political gain. not to mention that palestinians tried to take control of jordan (which resulted in deporting arafat and the PLO to lebanon , and then to tunisia).

as for your "international law" posts, let me tell you one simple thing about internation law and the laws of war.
i assume you are reffering to the "do not harm civilians" part of these laws ? right?
lets look at a few parts of the geneva conventions' laws of war...

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It is a violation of the laws of war to engage in combat without meeting certain requirements, among them the wearing of a distinctive uniform or other easily identifiable badge and the carrying of weapons openly. Impersonating soldiers of the other side by wearing the enemy's uniform, is also strictly forbidden, as is the taking of hostages.

all of the above are violated by the palestinians, they do not wear uniform and hide behind civilians, they often wear israeli army uniform just before blowig up, and the hostages list is not that short either.

another example:

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engaging in war activities under a white flag or red cross is itself a violation of the laws of war.

ambulances were used many times to transport explosives (sometimes hidden under the patient...)


so you can stop the BS about international laws. once they wage war in a way that is against any treraty they can't rely on this treaty to protect them.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[falxori 0]

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Because it scares the enemy.
If they ever used it, you can bet the USA would not be very happy!!!! Isreal is about as likely to use WMD as the USA is. However, putting WMD in the hands of nations willing to use it is a whole different story.

It is very much like the US / USSR standoff. Neither side wanted to USE the weapons, but they were a deterent incase one did. If Iran had Nukes, they may use them for shits and giggles if they think they won't be used back against them.

Isreal won't use WMD unless they are used agains them. The same can't be said of Iraq, Iran, Syria, NK.

there is a basic error in this logic.
you (much like the UN) assume that the traditional state of war (i.e between countries) applies.
what was the main problem with 9/11 ? there was no clear country behind it. so who do you attack back?

i don't think Iran will attack Israel directly with WMD , much like SH didnt in 91.
there is already a direct supply line between iran and syria and terrorist groups like hezbollah and hamas.
who will you strike back at if a chemical/nuke bomb explodes in the middle of tel-aviv, or new-york ?
the nuclear standoff doesnt apply anymore.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[juanesky 0]

I hear you. Most people just try to use the good old "it's the jew's fault", meanwhile they forget what really happen and who was abandoned by whom..

Why there is not an outrage by palestinians that none of their arab brothers (read Jordania, Egypt, Syria etc..) gave them sanctuary, and only crappy camps?. I know there is always the fault of every body else, but them.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[storm1977 0]

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Because it scares the enemy.
If they ever used it, you can bet the USA would not be very happy!!!! Isreal is about as likely to use WMD as the USA is. However, putting WMD in the hands of nations willing to use it is a whole different story.

It is very much like the US / USSR standoff. Neither side wanted to USE the weapons, but they were a deterent incase one did. If Iran had Nukes, they may use them for shits and giggles if they think they won't be used back against them.

Isreal won't use WMD unless they are used agains them. The same can't be said of Iraq, Iran, Syria, NK.

there is a basic error in this logic.
you (much like the UN) assume that the traditional state of war (i.e between countries) applies.
what was the main problem with 9/11 ? there was no clear country behind it. so who do you attack back?

i don't think Iran will attack Israel directly with WMD , much like SH didnt in 91.
there is already a direct supply line between iran and syria and terrorist groups like hezbollah and hamas.
who will you strike back at if a chemical/nuke bomb explodes in the middle of tel-aviv, or new-york ?
the nuclear standoff doesnt apply anymore.

O

I agree with you that there isn't in many cases Clear enemies. However, i think the road our President took is the right one in this case. Isreal can do the same.
That is:
Declare that any country who sponsors or knowingly Harbours said terrorist, are directly responsible for the actions they take.

So, if we know a state sponsored terrorist organization from IRAN detonated som Chem weapons in Boston at the DNC - Then the Iranian government is directly responsible.

Chris

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[falxori 0]

that may be valid as a concept but israel doesn't have the means nor the desire to take care of all the world's illness.

and even if the Iranian facility would have a big neon sign saying "nuke bomb factory" most of the world would chose to do nothing, and if someone does do something about it (and i honestly hope israel won't have to, because we really dont need this mess right now), i can already imagine the headlines (which will be similar to those of 1981, i guess)...

and to those who said, "why israel yes, and iran no?" i can answe in 2 ways.
1) why france yes and israel no/?
or
2) israel is believed to have had nukes since the mid 60's. at least twice after that (especially in 73) it was close to destruction, and still none were used, if that is not a sign of a resposible country, i don't know what is.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Ron 10]

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I agree with what you're saying, Ron. But why do we HAVE to pick sides?

EDIT to add...

And in actuality, we picked sides first, that is the main reason for the "Death to America" chanting.

Yes, we have to pick sides....

ALmost 60 years ago the World felt like shit for how Germany treated the Jews. The World (minus the people who owned the land) gave the Jews Israel.

The World Fucked up.

The Palestineans (SP?) got pissed.....Duh! As would you or I if someone came and took our land from us and gave it to someone that was diametricly opposed to our beliefs.

So they started fighting them...Again, Duh!

Well the World backed them...Again just defending the stupid thing they did.

The Jews want to defend Israel...DUH, just like you or I would defend the US from attack (Well not everyone is willing to defend the country as some on these boards show.)

I understand BOTH sides.

What can be done?

a. You can give Israel back....Yeah right, would you give up your land? The origin of your religion? Your home? Not gonna happen.

b. The Palistineans say "Well OK, we are not gonna fight about it any more"....Yeah right. They HATE the Jews. They are using the occupation as an EXCUSE to fight...It's not the reason. Islam extemests HATE anyone that is not Muslim...and not just Muslim...But just like them.

There is an old George Carlin bit..."You believe in God? Good...You belive in MY GOD? No? Bam!"

Hell, different sects of ALL religions have issues with the other sects...Its just that in a third world country they have strong religious beliefs, and are willing to die for them since life sucks so bad there.

You don't see many people in a modern country willing to die for God do you? It's cause even when life sucks in the US it's still pretty good. Some 3rd world nation when life sucks, it REALLY sucks.

Thats why in the US religion is growing smaller, but in 3rd world countries it is getting stronger...

When life sucks you look for strength that can't be seen.

c. The World stops supporting Israel...Israel will then fall to the Palistineans...Problem...Israel has nukes...And would use them. I would. So we have a Nuclear attack launch that would piss off ALL of the Muslims in the world.

You think they are pissed now? Nuke a few of them.

So the only REAL answers are:

a. Be so strong that when idiots attack...They get crushed. And make it REALLY hard to attack you. Case in point is the wall in the west bank. That wall should be tall and strong and once in place they should kick ALL Muslims out of Isreal...Tell them, "Sorry guys, have a great life on that side, but if you come accross this line....You die".

b. Economic aid to the Muslims....Make their lives better so they are not so willing to die.

c. Time. It will take time after the killings stop for the kids that grow up in a better place to not want to die to avenge their uncle, brother, cousin...ect that died in Jihad. If they have the choice of playing a PS2, or strapping a bomb on...Most kids will play playstation.

The killings have to stop....But the Muslims are not going to by choice...So we have to make them..Be strong and not let them get us...Kill the ones that try, and ONLY the ones that try.

Get them Playstations. Make it so that their lives are not crap. They will not be so willing to die.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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True it's wrong so is killing Palestinians do you not see that. Do you not see it is wrong to kill Palestinians also?

I'm willing to bet that if the Palestinians quit trying to kill the Jews that Jews would be quite happy to quit killing Palestainians...

However, the Palestinians want the Jews destroyed, and will not stop till they win.

Killing is wrong, but the Jews would stop if they stopped getting attacked.

I am not sure the Palestinians will stop till they rid themselves of the Jews, or are destroyed.

See the difference?

One attacks to prevent attacks. One attacks to destroy and eliminate.

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What gets people to become suicide bombers is not that they hate Jews. It's there lives have been changed by the Israelis, There children have been killed, They are policed, There freedom has been taken away. Do you not see that.

Their freedom is taken away ONLY in Israel....The rest of the world they can do as they please.

If they were not trying to eliminate the Jews...They they would be free to do as they please IN Israel as well.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[falxori 0]

a few thoughts

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The World (minus the people who owned the land) gave the Jews Israel.

there were jews in israel all the time (sometimes more and sometimes less, thanks to the romans...).
and actually, it was britain who "owned" the land at the time after taking it from the othoman (turkish) empire in WW I.

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So they started fighting them...Again, Duh!

Well the World backed them...Again just defending the stupid thing they did.

there were arab riots long before israel was founded. and why do you think the decision to divide the land between the two peoples living here was "stupid" ?
the UN decision was not to "give the land to the jews " as you call it, but to have two seperate states.

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a. You can give Israel back

oops, sorry , its not yours to give

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c. The World stops supporting Israel...Israel will then fall to the Palistineans...Problem...Israel has nukes...And would use them. I would. So we have a Nuclear attack launch that would piss off ALL of the Muslims in the world.

the world is not exactly supporting israel in case you havent noticed...
and the palestinian terror is not a force that can destroy israel, and no one is thinking of nuking anyone. anyway, to nuke a palestinian town would be like NYC nuking NJ.

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Economic aid to the Muslims....Make their lives better

yeap. but sadly these days most of the aid is going to secret bank accounts of the officials.
and sometimes the aid goes only to the families of terrorists.

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Time. It will take time after the killings stop for the kids that grow up in a better place to not want to die

you're right on target. if you see their school books you'll be amazed by the amount of pure hatered.
even in countries with whom israel has signed a peace treaty like egypt, the litreture is still full of it.
time wont do anything witout a change in attitude.
i wont lie. i will need a lot of time before i can trust them again.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."