The making of a suicide bomber (long)

[TomAiello 26]

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Not that Israeli safety is wrong -- it's not. But it's not inherently more valuable than Palestinian safety.

I'm sure it's more valuable to the Israeli's.

I'd also argue that it's more _threatened_, at leat from a historical perspective.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[crozby 0]

Both sides repeatedly do things which are deemed unacceptable to the rest of the world.

There are extremists on both sides who have no interest in solving the problem amicably.

Its obvious to everyone that the situation is a bag of crap.

So what is the solution? How do we get from here to a situation where individuals from both sides can live relatively normal and contented lives?

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"I just wish the entire world would stop shooting at each other, go make a skydive, and sit down and have a beer."

Will we go freeflying or RW, hows about some crew or a little style and accuracy? What sort of beer, Shiner, Stella?

Sheesh, can't you see the opportunity for dissent, and intolerance of difference, in your simplistic idyll?

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[falxori 0]

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There are extremists on both sides

i hear that a lot here, but i'm not sure what it means.
sure there are extremists in israel too, thats a democracy. the difference is that they don't do what they want, and if they do, they are put in jail.
it doesnt matter that there extremists, what matters is who is controling things, and who is allowed to do what.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Botellines 0]

The problem is when the extremists are the ones who decide what is right and what is not.

To take down the home of the family of a terrorist is very extreme (his family may have nothing to do with it) however it is commanded from Israel´s Government.
One government don´t stop terrorism (Arafat) and the other government encourage terrorism (Sharon). Take care!

[falxori 0]

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To take down the home of the family of a terrorist is very extreme

i don't think so.
if the family supported and even helped its assistance to murder (which is often the case).
usually they say he brought honor to the family and that they'll be proud if more of their children do the same.
i don't really like that idea, but when someone plans a terror attack from which he/she will not be coming back, there is not much you can do to stop it. the fear that their own family might suffer from it may not be the best way, but the options are pretty limited.

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One government don´t stop terrorism (Arafat) and the other government encourage terrorism (Sharon).

isn't it: one government is terror and one is doing all it can to stop it?

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[wmw999 2,447]

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PLEASE, tell me when the palestinians tried to do the right thing.

Many Palestinians do the right thing every single day. They go to work, they go to school, they go home.

Some don't, and we say that all Palestinians are like that. It's like saying all white people are white supremacists because some are, or all black people are criminals because some are, or all bikers are druggies because some are.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Botellines 0]

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if the family supported and even helped its assistance to murder (which is often the case).

Often is not always, besides as far as i know it is hamas and groups like them the ones that provide assistance.

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usually they say he brought honor to the family and that they'll be proud if more of their children do the same.

Usually is not always. Should we bomb Irak because they were dancing all happy after 9/11. Uppps sorry, we already did.

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i don't really like that idea, but when someone plans a terror attack from which he/she will not be coming back, there is not much you can do to stop it. the fear that their own family might suffer from it may not be the best way, but the options are pretty limited.

Fair enough, I understand that option are limited, but there are optios. You will agree with me that taking down those houses is neither fair, nor legal. Basicly Isreal is doing it because they can.

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isn't it: one government is terror and one is doing all it can to stop it?
O

Let´s put an example. I am palestinian, and my brother decides to kill himself in a terrorist attack. Let´s say that my father was aware, although probably not my mother. Certainly grandma didn´t have a clue, and although i knew it, i couldn´t do much to stop him without turning him to Israel. Next thing i know, a bulldozer has taken down my house with grandma inside, or well, maybe she wasn´t inside but we have lost all we have. We have lost a family member for the terrorist attack, the house in the revenge and maybe a couple of more family members in the way due to Israel soldiers.
Guess who will the next terrorist be.

[PhillyKev 0]

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So you believe in moral relativism?

No, I just don't think either party in this conflict can claim the moral high ground without imploying their own moral relativism.

[Darius11 12]

It's not terrorist act if Israel does it why don't people see that point of view. (Sarcasm)

It seems the people who support Israel think they do no wrong or they have no options. If you are Israel have all that money and power and you have no options I wonder how the Palestinians feel what options do they have?

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[Darius11 12]

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So you believe in moral relativism?

No, I just don't think either party in this conflict can claim the moral high ground without imploying their own moral relativism.

This is something i can Agree with.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[falxori 0]

there are two types of structures that could be demolished.

1) used for terrorist acts such as explosive labs, tunnels, or shooting posts. all of which pose a direct danger (both to israelis and to neighbouring palestinians.)
if its your house and you allow terrorists to use it, don't blame israel.
want an example? ok. last week, a group of terrorists were getting ready to shoot missiles (maybe it was morter shells, i dont remember) from the back yard of some house. the people who live there tried to stop them (i assume you know why). anyway, the group of terrorists simply shot the 16 yrs old kid who told them to go away.
so yes, if ther civilians refuse to cooperate with the terrorists because they fear for their home, it works.
and in this case you can see the terrorists dont exactly care whos life they destroy.

the second kind is the house of the terrorist himself.
there were cases where the family stopped it, even by reporting about it, but usually they don't.

let me as you this, if you were ready to murder 20 people knowing you'll die too, would your determination change if you knew your family might suffer also for your actions ?
there is not much you can do to a person willing to do such a horrible act.

and yes, i know its problematic and maybe wrong in some cases but when the family supports it and see it as an honorable act, they are guilty in my book.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[nacmacfeegle 0]

I think what we have here is that old chestnut, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Take the curious case of The People's Mujahideen, or Mujahideen-e Khalq as an example of this.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3928499.stm

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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[falxori 0]

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I wonder how the Palestinians feel what options do they have?

here's a new idea, stop terror acts.
not even once have they tried it...
even when the peace process was looking good, they were secretly getting weapons they shouldn't have and did nothing against the terror groups (not to mention joining them later on)

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[wmw999 2,447]

The way I see this sometimes is that the Israelis see themselves in a parental way -- the parents know what's right and wrong, and it's their family, so of course what they want goes.

They do have the power in the country. But I have a feeling that the Palestinians do not accept gracefully their role as errant teenagers. I know I wouldn't.

They have no political power to speak of in Israel as a whole; they have a separate society (yes, in part by choice). They have no influence to speak of -- they are at the mercy of the decisions of a people who they don't accept, and who don't accept them.

Terrorism is wrong (I feel like I have to say this periodically so people won't call me a terrorist -- is that sad or what). But this whole situation is so very sad.

Israel receives a lot of support from the US. What would it do without that support? They are our allies, and I understand that. They would be overrun eventually and there would be another horrible situation if all support were to be withdrawn. That's not good.

This is a good subject for prayer if you believe in God. Not that the war will start so that Armageddon and the Rapture will come (do you who believe in that really think you can manipulate God into a time schedule?). Pray that God's beloved creations will be able to live with each other, or simply send them vibes.

Ireland has an uneasy truce now, but it is a truce. People can go to school, go to work, and they have something to lose. That would be nice to see in Israel -- for everyone to have something to lose besides their life.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Botellines 0]

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there are two types of structures that could be demolished.

1) used for terrorist acts such as explosive labs, tunnels, or shooting posts. all of which pose a direct danger (both to israelis and to neighbouring palestinians.)
if its your house and you allow terrorists to use it, don't blame israel.
want an example? ok. last week, a group of terrorists were getting ready to shoot missiles (maybe it was morter shells, i dont remember) from the back yard of some house. the people who live there tried to stop them (i assume you know why). anyway, the group of terrorists simply shot the 16 yrs old kid who told them to go away.
so yes, if ther civilians refuse to cooperate with the terrorists because they fear for their home, it works.
and in this case you can see the terrorists dont exactly care whos life they destroy.

I never said that the terrorist were nice people. If that place is suitable to keep launching attacks from there i think it is fair that it is taken down. Of course after giving a fair compensation to the owners of that house. Sort of like giving them a better house someplace else, and giving them jobs if they have to relocate, etc.
If Israel is not compensating somehow those innocent people, they are creating more terrorist. If they treat them fairly, eventually they will turn against hamas

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the second kind is the house of the terrorist himself.
there were cases where the family stopped it, even by reporting about it, but usually they don't.

Because if they do, not only they will send their son to jail (to say the least) but also they will endanger themselves by upsetting extremist groups. It is a no win situation

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let me as you this, if you were ready to murder 20 people knowing you'll die too, would your determination change if you knew your family might suffer also for your actions ?
there is not much you can do to a person willing to do such a horrible act.

If i am so cold hearted to kill 3 Israel soldiers and 17 innocent people, i doubt fear from reprisal to my family would stop me from doing it. I would try to make it look like i have no family, or something like that though.

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and yes, i know its problematic and maybe wrong in some cases but when the family supports it and see it as an honorable act, they are guilty in my book.

I take then that there is a fair trial set up by an international independent tribunal who applies a law that both countries has compromised to obey. Becuase if there is not, it still looks to me that Israel is doing it only because they can.

[falxori 0]

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giving a fair compensation to the owners of that house. Sort of like giving them a better house someplace else

even if the owner willingly gave his house to be used by terrorists?

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will send their son to jail (to say the least)

wouldnt you prefer a son in jail than blown up to pieces with innocent people?

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i doubt fear from reprisal to my family would stop me from doing it.

but it does.
not always, but it does.
anyway, i will happily adopt another way.

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I take then that there is a fair trial set up by an international independent tribunal who applies a law that both countries has compromised to obey.

yes there is but its hardly "independent " and unbiased.
anyway, if you look at the determination of war, it clearly state that a fighting force must be distincitve from civilians, not operate from within civilian area and that marked medical services must not take an active combat role. all of which are not implemented by the palestinians (not to mention that they target civilians as a policy).
yes, its clearly against the laws of war to harm civilian buildings, but you can't look at only one side of the international law.
if they chose to conduct war in a way that voids all international treaties, they cant claim that israel breaks those treaties.

i'm not saying innocent palestinians don't get hurt because they do. the question is, do they get hurt on purpose and as a policy (like the article above says) or is it a sideeffect of the nature of this type of fighting.
i can honestly say that if there was a way to hurt only terrorists without ever hurting others, we would do it.
are we doing all we can? probably not, but its not as easy as it sounds.

O
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[Jimbo 0]

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They do have the power in the country. But I have a feeling that the Palestinians do not accept gracefully their role as errant teenagers. I know I wouldn't.

Then perhaps they should stop acting like children.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[wmw999 2,447]

Yes daddy.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

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"I just wish the entire world would stop shooting at each other, go make a skydive, and sit down and have a beer."

Will we go freeflying or RW, hows about some crew or a little style and accuracy? What sort of beer, Shiner, Stella?

I'm not shooting right now, but I'd stop for a bit if I was.
FF or RW - yes please, both
CrW - yes please, after the freefall
Style - yes please, as part of the FF jumps
Accuracy - yes please, put a target down there, after the CrW
I'd also like to use a jump or two with my faster canopy and do some surfing too.

Beer - ok. Mixed drinks too.

So that's one, just under 6 billion more to go.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Botellines 0]

I know it is not as easy as it sounds. It probably is much harder that what it look likes, but here are some suggestions.

- Make a point to distinguish between terrorists and other palestinians. Establish beyond reasonable doubt wether a palestinian is a terrorist, a supporter who is involved in the act of terror or someone caught between a wall and a hard rock.
- Collateral damage is not acceptable. Treat palestinian lifes (the inocent ones i mean) as valuable as Israel lifes. If that means that you don´t get to kill a terrorist, so be it. you will have to find a way to eliminate ONLY him.
- Contribute to improve their quality of life, the more they have to loose the less they will want to lose it, and that includes getting rid of the wall (you are actually doing the opposite)
- Do reasonable concessions to the palestinians and make sure that they can have their state ruled by them apart from Israel. (you may have to defend this idea in front of the ortodox jews)


There is some other things but those listed here would be a good beggining. I will agree with you that it will be expensive, and there could be more terrorist attacks in the short term, but i assure you that in the long term it will be very beneficial for both and will save a lot of lives in both sides

Most palestinian only want to live in peace and be left alone. Give them more than Hamas (which is not much) and you will have relatively peaceful neigbourghs

all of this of course IMO

[crozby 0]

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- Make a point to distinguish between terrorists and other palestinians.

I agree with that point except whilst palestinians are not making a distinction between innocent women and children and those who persecute them its not likely to happen is it?

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- Collateral damage is not acceptable. Treat palestinian lifes (the inocent ones i mean) as valuable as Israel lifes. If that means that you don´t get to kill a terrorist, so be it. you will have to find a way to eliminate ONLY him.

Again, how can you expect Israel to stop killing innocents when the Palestinians are doing the same thing?

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- Contribute to improve their quality of life, the more they have to loose the less they will want to lose it, and that includes getting rid of the wall (you are actually doing the opposite)

The EU contributes loads of cash. Where does it all go?


The behaviour of both sides in this conflict is beyond disgusting. The innocent people on both sides need to get rid of Sharon and Arafat and put people in power who give more of a shit about them than they do about politics.

This constant bickering about who's fault it all is will not solve anything and is a pointless waste of time that only serves the evil bastards who are only interested in maintaining the status quo.

You guys need the courage to stand up and say enough is enough and work together to stop the violence.

[falxori 0]

you get 10 points for not only saying "its wrong" but also suggesting alternaives

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- Make a point to distinguish between terrorists and other palestinians. Establish beyond reasonable doubt wether a palestinian is a terrorist, a supporter who is involved in the act of terror or someone caught between a wall and a hard rock.

agreed. but how do you establish that when they dress the same, act the same and walk in the same places? the only way you can do that without harrassing the innocent one is to wait until its too late. its pretty much like airport security, we are all checked even if its clear 99.99% of us are not terrorists.

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- Collateral damage is not acceptable. Treat palestinian lifes (the inocent ones i mean) as valuable as Israel lifes. If that means that you don´t get to kill a terrorist, so be it. you will have to find a way to eliminate ONLY him.

agreed. and usually a lot of efforts are made so no one else would get hurt, including canceling operations when civilians are thought to be near the target. does it always work? no.
saying the colateral damage is not acceptable is great as a concept, but when the terror leaders make sure they are surrounded by civilians most of the time, and when you know thwy are about to order another terror attack, its not always that clear.

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- Contribute to improve their quality of life, the more they have to loose the less they will want to lose it, and that includes getting rid of the wall (you are actually doing the opposite)
- Do reasonable concessions to the palestinians and make sure that they can have their state ruled by them apart from Israel. (you may have to defend this idea in front of the ortodox jews)

again, i agree, in the long run thats the only solution. but history shows that whenever concessions are made, they are used for terror acts.
new explosive labs pop up when forces pull out, terrorists move freely when checkpoints are removed, weapons are smuggled from egypt in tunnels, etc.
during the late 90's there was almost no israeli present in palestinian towns and the PA was in control. but they chose not to fight terrorists and took a significant part of the money donated for their personal use (and i'm talking about billions)

your "opinions" are correct. the problem is getting to a point were they can be implemented. we've tried it a few times and failed because they never gave up terror as an alternative.

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[TheAnvil 0]

What a bullshit article. The author should hold his head in shame for attempting to justify the actions of homicide bombers.

Let's look at a few of his points[sic]:

indiginous people of Palestine - where is Palestine? What are its borders? Who was its first leader? What is its primary import/export? What are some high points in its history? Low points perhaps? Bah! THERE IS NO PALESTINE!

indiscriminate killing - the trademark of homicide bombers. Israel does incur some collateral damage with air-strikes and such, but during the course of targeting terrorists

Scotish/George Washington comparison Bullshit by any standard. Wallace and Washington killing women and children indiscriminately, as homicide bombers have done time and time again? Bah. The author can only hope such a lie to work on the uneducated.

bulldozing houes/excessive use of force Yep! Homicide bombers attack and should be aware that one of the the results is bringing harm to those they loved and held dear. If they truly wanted peace, they would end the violence, shut down Al Manar and stop teaching their children that Jews are pigs and thieves.

This article sought to show the reader how homicide bombers are made. Pathetic attempt at doing so. Homicide bombers are made by inculcating children and young people at an early age that killing Jews is good, they have been robbed of their land by Jews, that the reason their lives are in the depths of despair is because the Jews keep them there, there can be no peace with Jews, and that if they would just go and kill Jews they will get a just reward in heaven. Homicide bombers are made with lies.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[falxori 0]

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Again, how can you expect Israel to stop killing innocents when the Palestinians are doing the same thing?

Israel is NOT killing civilians just because palestinians do. it happens, but its not a policy nor a goal.

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The EU contributes loads of cash. Where does it all go?

check a few swiss bank accounts.

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The innocent people on both sides need to get rid of Sharon and Arafat

you know, i'm not a big Sharon supporter and i didnt vote for him (a democracy, you know...) but comparing him to arafat is not exactly fair...
should i remind you why israel is back in places it gave to the PA in the Oslo accords? or who was it to refuse anything but everything in camp david in 2000 ?
we were dragged into this and trust me, we want out.

o

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."